I think the simple reason for a Ranger/Cleric being cheesy is the fact that he gets spells that shouldn't be available to him. Same goes for a Rogue that can suddenly do, use, and cast anything when he gets UAI.
However, I don't think you can call a Ranger/Cleric really cheesy, because the character, unlike anything with a mage class in it, is unable to wreck utter and total havoc on anything it sees. Yes, the character is strong, very strong, but exploiting Druid or Cleric spells is much more difficult and not nearly as effective as exploiting Mage spells. Of course Devine spells are powerful, but unfortunately not very exploitable and if they are, they are to a lesser degree.
For that matter, anything that has a mage class is practically open to 'cheesiness'. The things you can do with Project Image, Simulacrum, Mislead, Time Stop, etc. are just ridiculous. You can empty almost your entire spellbook in a few rounds. You can summon an army larger than there are Vampires in Bodhi's lair. You can use any item multiple times, I could go on for the list is nearly endless.
True, there are many classes open to a certain level of cheese and the Ranger/Cleric certainly ranks high on that list. But to create an all powerful cheese character you somehow need to be able to cast (lots of) mage spells (the high-level mage spells, that is) and neither a Rogue, nor a Druid/Cleric is capable of doing that.
Ultimate Cheese Character
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Luis Antonio
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I'm currently playing a multiclassed Mage thief. That is cheesy. You can use spell combos, backstab, the traps (oh cheese) with a not so poor thac0. Now the reason I wouldnt use a dual-class character is: Dual classed characters are more effective in the short term. Of course, when I arrive to ToB my mage thief will be unstoppable, a machine of havoc and destruction. The party I'm playing now has only one minor spellcaster - Minsc - while the rest of the party can break down the walls with magic in no time. The party is Aerie (I want to get high level spells later) Jan (roleplayability and fun) minsc (tank) Jaheira (tank with spells) Anomen ( tank with spells, ready to buff now, more used as a powerhouse later). My character is a Mage thief, wielding bows and short swords and of course staffs. My party is a powerhouse, magic wise.
Now, when I was making my party, the cleric ranger was one of my choices. I was almost done with one when I thought "damn, I want to keep Jaheira, then two fighter druids..." oops. yes, its similar - and the Ranger druid has tons of advantages, IMO. The fighter wouldnt be able to put extra stars, wont be able to cast some extra cleric spells, and would lose the hability to use swords as well. Then I've decided to cheese with the mage thief, one of my favourites.
Anyhoo, Bards are also cheesy, but they aint powerhouses. The "I dont have access to level 6 or higher spells" thing make them very vulnerable in the later stages of the game (I dont use traps as a bard, no way). Mage thiefs can be killed very quickly (specially when dualed) because of lower spell levels in the beggining (I need an extra level for, say, stoneskin) and due to low HP. The Cleric Ranger, however, has high con and wisdom, therefore a higher hit dice roll in the beggining and spells to improve Thac0 and to delay enemies at the first levels (entangle!!!). Just too cheesy
They also have racial enemy (minor, but helpfull specially against vampires).
Now, when I was making my party, the cleric ranger was one of my choices. I was almost done with one when I thought "damn, I want to keep Jaheira, then two fighter druids..." oops. yes, its similar - and the Ranger druid has tons of advantages, IMO. The fighter wouldnt be able to put extra stars, wont be able to cast some extra cleric spells, and would lose the hability to use swords as well. Then I've decided to cheese with the mage thief, one of my favourites.
Anyhoo, Bards are also cheesy, but they aint powerhouses. The "I dont have access to level 6 or higher spells" thing make them very vulnerable in the later stages of the game (I dont use traps as a bard, no way). Mage thiefs can be killed very quickly (specially when dualed) because of lower spell levels in the beggining (I need an extra level for, say, stoneskin) and due to low HP. The Cleric Ranger, however, has high con and wisdom, therefore a higher hit dice roll in the beggining and spells to improve Thac0 and to delay enemies at the first levels (entangle!!!). Just too cheesy
They also have racial enemy (minor, but helpfull specially against vampires).Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
IMO, berserker -> cleric is way better than ranger -> cleric. Gaining the rage ability really helps when fighting demi-lich and some mages. Being ranger -> cleric let you gain access to druid spell, however, the druid spells that i find useful only are call woodland beings, creeping doom, iron skin, and fire elemental. If u install ToB, fire elemental can be replaced by elemental summoning. So being a ranger -> cleric does not gain huge advantages compare to berserk
-> cleric; gaining rage ability and 5 stars specialization.
what i consider the chessy characters are: (from best to worse)
1. fighter/mage
2. kensai -> thief
3. mage/thief (gnome for being illusionist)
4. kensai -> mage
5. berserk -> cleric
6. assassin -> mage
7. Undead Hunter/barbarian/sorcerer
8. blade
-> cleric; gaining rage ability and 5 stars specialization.
what i consider the chessy characters are: (from best to worse)
1. fighter/mage
2. kensai -> thief
3. mage/thief (gnome for being illusionist)
4. kensai -> mage
5. berserk -> cleric
6. assassin -> mage
7. Undead Hunter/barbarian/sorcerer
8. blade
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[QUOTE=Aztaroth]I... can't help thinking that you're saying that Anomen is underappreciated... *shudder* the self-righteous prick...[/QUOTE]
I don't like Anomen, but if you don't think he's powerful, then you're underestimating him.
Anomen is unfairly disadvantaged because for some reason, he doesn't have as many proficiency points or points of Wisdom as he should (he should have four more proficiency points and three more points of Wisdom). And he'd be better off if he had dualled at 9th Level or higher instead of 7th Level, or if he had started out as a Berserker. But if you play a Fighter>Cleric in one game and then let Anomen into your party in your next game, you'll know how to use him and you'll appreciate his abilities (if you can tolerate his personality).
[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]The reason I think that that Ranger->Cleric is so cheesy isn't because of the comparison to a Fighter->Cleric, but rather in comparison to the Druid, a Fighter/Druid or Fighter->Druid.
Basically, when you give the cleric access to the few spells that a Druid has to hang his hat on, you're totally crippling any reason to ever be a Druid (again, this is only in terms of powergaming; if you want to play a Druid for roleplaying reasons, then more power to you)...[/QUOTE]
I WON'T play a Druid for roleplaying reasons. They just aren't my type.
I think I can appreciate what you're saying. Cleric/Rangers are cheesy because Druids suck.
[QUOTE=Sytze]There are many classes open to a certain level of cheese and the Ranger/Cleric certainly ranks high on that list. But to create an all powerful cheese character you somehow need to be able to cast (lots of) mage spells (the high-level mage spells, that is)...
I don't think you can call a Ranger/Cleric really cheesy, because the character, unlike anything with a mage class in it, is unable to wreck utter and total havoc on anything it sees. Yes, the character is strong, very strong, but exploiting Druid or Cleric spells is much more difficult and not nearly as effective as exploiting Mage spells...[/QUOTE]
Does this mean that cheesiness is defined by how much havoc a character can wreak? I don't think I can agree with that. I think cheesiness is best defined as something highly unlikely to work against a REAL opponent that produces unbelievable results in the game. Certain Mage tactics are cheesy, but magical power itself is not cheesy.
It's true that divine spells aren't as powerful or as easy to exploit as arcane spells. What do you think about a 24th Level Swashbuckler with UAI dualled to a Cleric? (I don't think you can dual a 24th Level Swashbuckler to a Mage and stay under the TOB experience cap.)
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]I'm currently playing a multiclassed Mage thief. That is cheesy. You can use spell combos, backstab, the traps (oh cheese) with a not so poor thac0...[/QUOTE]
How does Jan compare to your main character? They're practically the same, aren't they?
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]The Cleric Ranger, however, has high con and wisdom, therefore a higher hit dice roll in the beginning and spells to improve Thac0 and to delay enemies at the first levels (entangle!!!). Just too cheesy They also have racial enemy (minor, but helpfull specially against vampires).[/QUOTE]
Everything you said in the first sentence applies to single-class Rangers. Are they cheesy, too?
IMO, a Fighter/Thief is better at fighting vampires than anyone else if you carry a few potions of invisibility and do a lot of backstabbing. I turned Yoshimo into a 7th Level Kensai dualled to a Thief without changing his stats or his starting experience, and after only a few quests (De'Arnise Keep, Unseeing Eye, and Guarded Compound), he was strong enough to annihilate Bodhi's guild all by himself. After Yoshimo's first backstab with Celestial Fury, Bodhi herself threw in the towel and said, "Well, that was...educational." Well, it was also cheesy.
If you choose Vampires as a racial enemy, it's practically useless by the time you reach Throne of Bhaal, since a Cleric/Ranger can make them all explode with Turn Undead. (So can a Cleric or a Fighter/Cleric.)
I don't like Anomen, but if you don't think he's powerful, then you're underestimating him.
Anomen is unfairly disadvantaged because for some reason, he doesn't have as many proficiency points or points of Wisdom as he should (he should have four more proficiency points and three more points of Wisdom). And he'd be better off if he had dualled at 9th Level or higher instead of 7th Level, or if he had started out as a Berserker. But if you play a Fighter>Cleric in one game and then let Anomen into your party in your next game, you'll know how to use him and you'll appreciate his abilities (if you can tolerate his personality).
[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]The reason I think that that Ranger->Cleric is so cheesy isn't because of the comparison to a Fighter->Cleric, but rather in comparison to the Druid, a Fighter/Druid or Fighter->Druid.
Basically, when you give the cleric access to the few spells that a Druid has to hang his hat on, you're totally crippling any reason to ever be a Druid (again, this is only in terms of powergaming; if you want to play a Druid for roleplaying reasons, then more power to you)...[/QUOTE]
I WON'T play a Druid for roleplaying reasons. They just aren't my type.
I think I can appreciate what you're saying. Cleric/Rangers are cheesy because Druids suck.
[QUOTE=Sytze]There are many classes open to a certain level of cheese and the Ranger/Cleric certainly ranks high on that list. But to create an all powerful cheese character you somehow need to be able to cast (lots of) mage spells (the high-level mage spells, that is)...
I don't think you can call a Ranger/Cleric really cheesy, because the character, unlike anything with a mage class in it, is unable to wreck utter and total havoc on anything it sees. Yes, the character is strong, very strong, but exploiting Druid or Cleric spells is much more difficult and not nearly as effective as exploiting Mage spells...[/QUOTE]
Does this mean that cheesiness is defined by how much havoc a character can wreak? I don't think I can agree with that. I think cheesiness is best defined as something highly unlikely to work against a REAL opponent that produces unbelievable results in the game. Certain Mage tactics are cheesy, but magical power itself is not cheesy.
It's true that divine spells aren't as powerful or as easy to exploit as arcane spells. What do you think about a 24th Level Swashbuckler with UAI dualled to a Cleric? (I don't think you can dual a 24th Level Swashbuckler to a Mage and stay under the TOB experience cap.)
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]I'm currently playing a multiclassed Mage thief. That is cheesy. You can use spell combos, backstab, the traps (oh cheese) with a not so poor thac0...[/QUOTE]
How does Jan compare to your main character? They're practically the same, aren't they?
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]The Cleric Ranger, however, has high con and wisdom, therefore a higher hit dice roll in the beginning and spells to improve Thac0 and to delay enemies at the first levels (entangle!!!). Just too cheesy
They also have racial enemy (minor, but helpfull specially against vampires).[/QUOTE]Everything you said in the first sentence applies to single-class Rangers. Are they cheesy, too?
IMO, a Fighter/Thief is better at fighting vampires than anyone else if you carry a few potions of invisibility and do a lot of backstabbing. I turned Yoshimo into a 7th Level Kensai dualled to a Thief without changing his stats or his starting experience, and after only a few quests (De'Arnise Keep, Unseeing Eye, and Guarded Compound), he was strong enough to annihilate Bodhi's guild all by himself. After Yoshimo's first backstab with Celestial Fury, Bodhi herself threw in the towel and said, "Well, that was...educational." Well, it was also cheesy.
If you choose Vampires as a racial enemy, it's practically useless by the time you reach Throne of Bhaal, since a Cleric/Ranger can make them all explode with Turn Undead. (So can a Cleric or a Fighter/Cleric.)
[QUOTE=VonDondu]Does this mean that cheesiness is defined by how much havoc a character can wreak? I don't think I can agree with that. I think cheesiness is best defined as something highly unlikely to work against a REAL opponent that produces unbelievable results in the game. Certain Mage tactics are cheesy, but magical power itself is not cheesy.
It's true that divine spells aren't as powerful or as easy to exploit as arcane spells. What do you think about a 24th Level Swashbuckler with UAI dualled to a Cleric? (I don't think you can dual a 24th Level Swashbuckler to a Mage and stay under the TOB experience cap.)[/QUOTE]
How much havoc a character can wreck does not entirely define cheese, but it is an aspect of the definition. In my opinion, cheese indicates something which is able to overcome anything by means which aren’t always legal. Cheese is exploiting the game engine.
Although I agree a Ranger/Cleric can be cheesy because the character is able to receive all the Devine spells (and that’s an engine bug and thus an exploit), I don’t think the class itself is capable of cheese. The Devine spells don’t work that way, unlike the Arcane spells, for which I gave a few examples. Exploiting the game engine is tougher with a Ranger/Cleric than with anything with a mage class.
About a Swashbuckler dualled to Cleric: I don’t considering the character itself very cheesy, although the class can receive very, very nice AC and +hit bonuses with clerical spells. Undeniably, it is a very strong class, but it sets in so very late game, and certain thieving aspect aren’t very well compensated by the cleric class and vice versa. For example, you can’t use Hide in Shadows while wearing Full Plate, you can’t make your backstab stronger with spells such as Righteous Magic because the Swashi can’t backstab, etc. Really, the only thing you’re doing is making him hit harder and harder to hit in combat.
What might be cheesy, however, is that you can start using Robe of Vecna and other spellcasting improving items -which are otherwise unavailable to the Cleric class- and combine those with Mage scrolls. That way, you get the Aerie effect with a character that shouldn’t have those abilities. Yet, that still leaves you with a Thief and a Cleric, both classes unable to exploit the game engine to the same agree as a Mage, unless they have Mage spells (scrolls).
The potential is certainly there with a Swashbuckler dualled to Cleric, but it is limited.
Edit:
[QUOTE=VonDondu]I think cheesiness is best defined as something highly unlikely to work against a REAL opponent that produces unbelievable results in the game.[/QUOTE]
Could you elaborate on this, Von? Because there are many different tactics, possible and available to the weakest of characters, to which a non-real opponent (the game) will fall.
It's true that divine spells aren't as powerful or as easy to exploit as arcane spells. What do you think about a 24th Level Swashbuckler with UAI dualled to a Cleric? (I don't think you can dual a 24th Level Swashbuckler to a Mage and stay under the TOB experience cap.)[/QUOTE]
How much havoc a character can wreck does not entirely define cheese, but it is an aspect of the definition. In my opinion, cheese indicates something which is able to overcome anything by means which aren’t always legal. Cheese is exploiting the game engine.
Although I agree a Ranger/Cleric can be cheesy because the character is able to receive all the Devine spells (and that’s an engine bug and thus an exploit), I don’t think the class itself is capable of cheese. The Devine spells don’t work that way, unlike the Arcane spells, for which I gave a few examples. Exploiting the game engine is tougher with a Ranger/Cleric than with anything with a mage class.
About a Swashbuckler dualled to Cleric: I don’t considering the character itself very cheesy, although the class can receive very, very nice AC and +hit bonuses with clerical spells. Undeniably, it is a very strong class, but it sets in so very late game, and certain thieving aspect aren’t very well compensated by the cleric class and vice versa. For example, you can’t use Hide in Shadows while wearing Full Plate, you can’t make your backstab stronger with spells such as Righteous Magic because the Swashi can’t backstab, etc. Really, the only thing you’re doing is making him hit harder and harder to hit in combat.
What might be cheesy, however, is that you can start using Robe of Vecna and other spellcasting improving items -which are otherwise unavailable to the Cleric class- and combine those with Mage scrolls. That way, you get the Aerie effect with a character that shouldn’t have those abilities. Yet, that still leaves you with a Thief and a Cleric, both classes unable to exploit the game engine to the same agree as a Mage, unless they have Mage spells (scrolls).
The potential is certainly there with a Swashbuckler dualled to Cleric, but it is limited.
Edit:
[QUOTE=VonDondu]I think cheesiness is best defined as something highly unlikely to work against a REAL opponent that produces unbelievable results in the game.[/QUOTE]
Could you elaborate on this, Von? Because there are many different tactics, possible and available to the weakest of characters, to which a non-real opponent (the game) will fall.
"Sometimes Dreams are wiser than waking"
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=VonDondu]
How does Jan compare to your main character? They're practically the same, aren't they?
Everything you said in the first sentence applies to single-class Rangers. Are they cheesy, too?
[/QUOTE]
Jan will be disposed ASAP. After the underdark I'll have either Imoen or Nalia, if I grow tired of Immy. Or maybe solaufein. Or maybe even, I'll keep Jan, for his roleplaying value. I dont really like him, being ilusionist, and for now he balances my party with lockpicking (I dont use knock) and detect ilusions.
Btw, yes, I'll dispose of my single classed Ranger Minsc. He's gonna be off, cause we'll have Sarevok - who does a better melee roll and is not nuts and also cant cast low level spells. Also, Savvy will be used ONLY as a melee fighter with two handed swords and I'll roleplay him with his sword, at least till I get the sword of the grief. Minsc is good - in fact, with armour of faith he's too damn good after he picks up nice equipment. Better than Savvy, I'd risk saying, if it was not for the critical strike Savvy has (cant remember the name). Sides, Minsc has enrage, which makes him even a wee little bit better.
As "fighting" class I think Rangers are cheesy. The Paladin has less stats to distribute due to charisma being stuck to a high level, and being able to be only human is not good too. Also, their spells come earlier (I felt this always, I dont know if this is exactly true) and the ranger main stat is con, which makes them "highly resistant to poison (pfeh) and having higher hit dice rolls (that one works)".
How does Jan compare to your main character? They're practically the same, aren't they?
Everything you said in the first sentence applies to single-class Rangers. Are they cheesy, too?
[/QUOTE]
Jan will be disposed ASAP. After the underdark I'll have either Imoen or Nalia, if I grow tired of Immy. Or maybe solaufein. Or maybe even, I'll keep Jan, for his roleplaying value. I dont really like him, being ilusionist, and for now he balances my party with lockpicking (I dont use knock) and detect ilusions.
Btw, yes, I'll dispose of my single classed Ranger Minsc. He's gonna be off, cause we'll have Sarevok - who does a better melee roll and is not nuts and also cant cast low level spells. Also, Savvy will be used ONLY as a melee fighter with two handed swords and I'll roleplay him with his sword, at least till I get the sword of the grief. Minsc is good - in fact, with armour of faith he's too damn good after he picks up nice equipment. Better than Savvy, I'd risk saying, if it was not for the critical strike Savvy has (cant remember the name). Sides, Minsc has enrage, which makes him even a wee little bit better.
As "fighting" class I think Rangers are cheesy. The Paladin has less stats to distribute due to charisma being stuck to a high level, and being able to be only human is not good too. Also, their spells come earlier (I felt this always, I dont know if this is exactly true) and the ranger main stat is con, which makes them "highly resistant to poison (pfeh) and having higher hit dice rolls (that one works)".
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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Cuchulain82
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I think that most of the problems that we are discussing with cheese are problems from Pen and Paper 2nd edition. Because SOA and TOB are so well done, you are able to truly use (and exploit) just about anything in the game. Granted, the engine isn't perfect, but things like the ridiculous Druid XP chart, dual classing, and the Ranger ability score requirements are things that were (rightfully) revised over time. For example, the high Ranger and Paladin score requirements were supposed to make Rangers and Paladins uncommon and special, because statistically the changes of you rolling the high scores necessary were pretty slim- especially if you were rolling the original way (3d6*6, no moving points, scores rolled in order).Vondu]Cleric/Rangers are cheesy because Druids suck. :) [/quote] You know wrote:The Paladin has less stats to distribute due to charisma being stuck to a high level, and being able to be only human
*sigh* Well, that's another mini-rant. I guess that my big point is that we find all these explioits because BGII is so well done, not because it is so heavily flawed.
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]
*sigh* Well, that's another mini-rant. I guess that my big point is that we find all these explioits because BGII is so well done, not because it is so heavily flawed.[/QUOTE]
Now that's THE poit to which I completely agree.
And also, I dont think druids suck - they're just underrated and level up slowly, but once leveled they're powerhouses, IMO better than clerics, due to the spells, which are to say the least better tactically than those of the clerics.
*sigh* Well, that's another mini-rant. I guess that my big point is that we find all these explioits because BGII is so well done, not because it is so heavily flawed.[/QUOTE]
Now that's THE poit to which I completely agree.
And also, I dont think druids suck - they're just underrated and level up slowly, but once leveled they're powerhouses, IMO better than clerics, due to the spells, which are to say the least better tactically than those of the clerics.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
[QUOTE=VonDondu]
How does Jan compare to your main character? They're practically the same, aren't they?
[/QUOTE]
thief/mage get unlimited backstabs with mislead, so if u use it right, Jan can be quite a threat to the enemies. Thief/mage is just chessy.
put on spell immunity and choose divination to negate true seeing.
How does Jan compare to your main character? They're practically the same, aren't they?
[/QUOTE]
thief/mage get unlimited backstabs with mislead, so if u use it right, Jan can be quite a threat to the enemies. Thief/mage is just chessy.
put on spell immunity and choose divination to negate true seeing.
Got Question from BG series? NO PRoblem, ask BG_DaDDy, YAh.
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The7thStooge
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I am by no means an expert when it comes to the details of the game, but one character combo that seems "cheesy" to me is a dual-class Wizard Slayer/Thief.
You get the advantages of the Wizard Slayer (magic resistance and such), and when you get high enough as a thief to get the Use Any Item ability, it completely and totally cancels out all the disadvantages that the Wizard Slayer has.
Once a long time ago, I installed the XP Cap remover, and just for the heck of it I made a 39th-level Wizard Slayer/40th-level Thief to dink around with, and this guy simply steamrolled the game. I know, it was a hacked character since I bumped up the XPs, but still, a character like that, if you have the patience and will to put him together (mayby not 39th level, though), would be devastating.
I don't know, though; the kensai/thief is a good one, too, with all the kensai bonuses and the ability to wear armor at a high level. I would venture to say that the Use Any Item ability for the thief is probably the single greatest "cheese ability" there is in the game.
The7thStooge...
You get the advantages of the Wizard Slayer (magic resistance and such), and when you get high enough as a thief to get the Use Any Item ability, it completely and totally cancels out all the disadvantages that the Wizard Slayer has.
Once a long time ago, I installed the XP Cap remover, and just for the heck of it I made a 39th-level Wizard Slayer/40th-level Thief to dink around with, and this guy simply steamrolled the game. I know, it was a hacked character since I bumped up the XPs, but still, a character like that, if you have the patience and will to put him together (mayby not 39th level, though), would be devastating.
I don't know, though; the kensai/thief is a good one, too, with all the kensai bonuses and the ability to wear armor at a high level. I would venture to say that the Use Any Item ability for the thief is probably the single greatest "cheese ability" there is in the game.
The7thStooge...
Q- "There are three men in a room with three beds, but only two blankets. How do they keep warm?"
A- "They turn on the heat."
A- "They turn on the heat."
I don't understand how you can minimize iron skins. For me, I can't have a tank that doesn't have ironskins/stoneskin. It is the only sure way to avoid getting hit, and it works in conjunction with armor class which can make it last longer.
I was not aware of the ranger/cleric's druid spells extending beyond the ranger limit, but it seems like a fun way to add a tank cleric to my next party, as Aerie was the only cleric I used before (as she had stoneskin).
I was not aware of the ranger/cleric's druid spells extending beyond the ranger limit, but it seems like a fun way to add a tank cleric to my next party, as Aerie was the only cleric I used before (as she had stoneskin).
Right you are, Ken.
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Luis Antonio
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@Miscreant, I guess you're neglecting the fact that tanks are supposed to be hit while you can think of better ways to disrupt spell protections. Therefore, they would be taking damage - and Ironskins is REALLY ubber cheesy for druids, the only thing is, after that the good druid spells only will come too late in the game, and when they come you wont be using Ironskins successfully anymore, specially with tactics mod on.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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Reply
For those that have failed to utilize druids to their full power and now refer to them as 'druids suck' - is totally false. Just because YOU have failed to utilize their talents doesn't make them bad. Ever played an avenger/fighter before ? Amazing spell power, dual-wielding and resistance to elements ? Or maybe a wizard slayer/druid ? Resistance to elements AND magic plus magic failure per hit ? No class 'sucks' if you can utilize their strenghts. Try using the impaler spear or maybe shapeshifting - ever cast ironskin, insect plague and nature's beauty whilst regenerating 3hp/round in werewolf form ? - Not to mention that this is using no items or weapons is rather powerful as it is based on ability alone.
Most cheesy character ? Fighter/Mage/Thief - mislead, wearing elven chainmail and fighter proficencies = backstab on every hit plus mage power support and fighter hp.
For those that have failed to utilize druids to their full power and now refer to them as 'druids suck' - is totally false. Just because YOU have failed to utilize their talents doesn't make them bad. Ever played an avenger/fighter before ? Amazing spell power, dual-wielding and resistance to elements ? Or maybe a wizard slayer/druid ? Resistance to elements AND magic plus magic failure per hit ? No class 'sucks' if you can utilize their strenghts. Try using the impaler spear or maybe shapeshifting - ever cast ironskin, insect plague and nature's beauty whilst regenerating 3hp/round in werewolf form ? - Not to mention that this is using no items or weapons is rather powerful as it is based on ability alone.
Most cheesy character ? Fighter/Mage/Thief - mislead, wearing elven chainmail and fighter proficencies = backstab on every hit plus mage power support and fighter hp.
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]Try using the impaler spear or maybe shapeshifting - ever cast ironskin, insect plague and nature's beauty whilst regenerating 3hp/round in werewolf form ? [/QUOTE] The Shapeshifter kit doesn't come with regenerating abilities. Cernds' cloak or staff gives you regeneration, though.
Druids certainly don't suck. Some of the game's deadliest spells are druidspells. I don't like druids but that comes from a roleplayers' perspective: the whole 'balance philosophy' is downright silly IMHO.
Druids certainly don't suck. Some of the game's deadliest spells are druidspells. I don't like druids but that comes from a roleplayers' perspective: the whole 'balance philosophy' is downright silly IMHO.
She says: Lou, it's the Beginning of a Great Adventure
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Amran_X_Kaiser
- Posts: 284
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- Contact:
Kaiser69
Ah - I'm using ease-of-use mod which makes the game all the more harder yet interesting - in that druids are tough cookies when used properly - that whole balance thing is all hypocritical garbage.
Without ease-of-use mod installed shapeshifters are under-powered but also their abilities differ from what they are initially suppose to recieve:
Normal Werewolf:
You Were Supposed To Get You Actually Got
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Base Magic Res 20% Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 20%
Immunity to Normal Weapons Nothing
Paw = 1d12 slashing Paw = 1d6 piercing
For the Greater Werewolf ...
You Were Supposed To Get You Actually Got
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THAC0 6 Nothing
Saves 1/1/1/2/1 Nothing
Base Elemental Res 50% Elemental Res *LOCKED AT* 50%
Base Magic Res 40% Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 40%
Immunity to Normal Weapons Nothing
Paw = +3 Weapon Paw = +2 Weapon
Paw = 2d8 slashing Paw = 1d6 piercing
Regeneration 3 HP / second Nothing
From Text File:
Ease of Use Mod Pack
Westley Weimer <weimer@cs.berkeley.edu>
Release 32 \/
http://weidu.org
The changes that were made in this mod and the druids in general makes druids all the better and I don't think its cheating if it corrects what you are suppose to initially recieve. Don't bug weimer about this, if you want to download the mod feel free to do so but this is a review of what can happen if you install this mod and still feel that druids are tree-hugging pansies just head to the nature groves and fight faldorn in tactics mod - she will make you beg.
Ah - I'm using ease-of-use mod which makes the game all the more harder yet interesting - in that druids are tough cookies when used properly - that whole balance thing is all hypocritical garbage.
Without ease-of-use mod installed shapeshifters are under-powered but also their abilities differ from what they are initially suppose to recieve:
Normal Werewolf:
You Were Supposed To Get You Actually Got
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Base Magic Res 20% Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 20%
Immunity to Normal Weapons Nothing
Paw = 1d12 slashing Paw = 1d6 piercing
For the Greater Werewolf ...
You Were Supposed To Get You Actually Got
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THAC0 6 Nothing
Saves 1/1/1/2/1 Nothing
Base Elemental Res 50% Elemental Res *LOCKED AT* 50%
Base Magic Res 40% Magic Res *LOCKED AT* 40%
Immunity to Normal Weapons Nothing
Paw = +3 Weapon Paw = +2 Weapon
Paw = 2d8 slashing Paw = 1d6 piercing
Regeneration 3 HP / second Nothing
From Text File:
Ease of Use Mod Pack
Westley Weimer <weimer@cs.berkeley.edu>
Release 32 \/
http://weidu.org
The changes that were made in this mod and the druids in general makes druids all the better and I don't think its cheating if it corrects what you are suppose to initially recieve. Don't bug weimer about this, if you want to download the mod feel free to do so but this is a review of what can happen if you install this mod and still feel that druids are tree-hugging pansies just head to the nature groves and fight faldorn in tactics mod - she will make you beg.
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Cuchulain82
- Posts: 1229
- Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:44 pm
- Location: Law School library, Vermont, USA
- Contact:
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]For those that have failed to utilize druids to their full power and now refer to them as 'druids suck' - is totally false...[/QUOTE]
Were you referring to my post? If so, you should re-read it because I think you might have missed my point. Druids don't suck. No class sucks. However, some classes, because of game mechanics, have the potential to be exploited to create incredibly powerful characters. The druid is not one of these classes. Furthermore, the druid is made almost irrelevant to a powergamer because of the Ranger-Cleric mix.
Were you referring to my post? If so, you should re-read it because I think you might have missed my point. Druids don't suck. No class sucks. However, some classes, because of game mechanics, have the potential to be exploited to create incredibly powerful characters. The druid is not one of these classes. Furthermore, the druid is made almost irrelevant to a powergamer because of the Ranger-Cleric mix.
Custodia legis
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Amran_X_Kaiser
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:48 am
- Contact:
Reply
No not referring to your post, a dude posted saying druids suck - must have been a newb. True Ranger/Cleric to tend to beat druids in BG2 - but in Icewind Dale their the true Ranger/Cleric only gains up to level 4 in druid spells so its doubtful anyone would pick it.
Also - I hate it how druids are only referred to in single class means - try a fighter/avenger or a wizardslayer/druid vs the ranger/cleric and then we'll see who is the better.
Even the berserker/cleric is an awesome class - especially when its powerhousing with 5 proficiencies in a weapon and another 3, not 2 in comparison to the ranger/cleric, in two-weapon fighting. The spells that the ranger/cleric has can be exploited as they aren't suppose to have them in the first place - this coupled with the fact shapeshifters are underpowered makes the game exploitable. Although the ranger/cleric seems good with the divine spells leaking out of every orifice, I still think either of the fighter/avenger or berserker/cleric can not only beat them in combat but also their immunities (natural not item gained) coupled with spells are better than the mass spell selection and restrictive weapon mastery ranger/cleric.
No not referring to your post, a dude posted saying druids suck - must have been a newb. True Ranger/Cleric to tend to beat druids in BG2 - but in Icewind Dale their the true Ranger/Cleric only gains up to level 4 in druid spells so its doubtful anyone would pick it.
Also - I hate it how druids are only referred to in single class means - try a fighter/avenger or a wizardslayer/druid vs the ranger/cleric and then we'll see who is the better.
Even the berserker/cleric is an awesome class - especially when its powerhousing with 5 proficiencies in a weapon and another 3, not 2 in comparison to the ranger/cleric, in two-weapon fighting. The spells that the ranger/cleric has can be exploited as they aren't suppose to have them in the first place - this coupled with the fact shapeshifters are underpowered makes the game exploitable. Although the ranger/cleric seems good with the divine spells leaking out of every orifice, I still think either of the fighter/avenger or berserker/cleric can not only beat them in combat but also their immunities (natural not item gained) coupled with spells are better than the mass spell selection and restrictive weapon mastery ranger/cleric.
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Cuchulain82
- Posts: 1229
- Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:44 pm
- Location: Law School library, Vermont, USA
- Contact:
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]No not referring to your post[/quote]
Excellent. I didn't think so
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]a dude posted saying druids suck - must have been a newb. True Ranger/Cleric to tend to beat druids in BG2 - but in Icewind Dale their the true Ranger/Cleric only gains up to level 4 in druid spells so its doubtful anyone would pick it.[/quote]
I never played IWD, but that idea does have merit. Imo, druid spells should be for... well... druids.
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]Also - I hate it how druids are only referred to in single class means - try a fighter/avenger or a wizardslayer/druid vs the ranger/cleric and then we'll see who is the better.[/quote]
Hmmmm.... you see, I don't buy it, mainly because of one thing- the druid XP table. Up to level 7 or 8, Druids and Clerics are essentially identical. As I mentioned before though, Clerics advance at a much faster rate from levels 10+. This means that the Cleric will have more spells, better spells, better THACo, etc.
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]Even the berserker/cleric is an awesome class - especially when its powerhousing with 5 proficiencies in a weapon and another 3, not 2 in comparison to the ranger/cleric, in two-weapon fighting. The spells that the ranger/cleric has can be exploited as they aren't suppose to have them in the first place - this coupled with the fact shapeshifters are underpowered makes the game exploitable. Although the ranger/cleric seems good with the divine spells leaking out of every orifice, I still think either of the fighter/avenger or berserker/cleric can not only beat them in combat but also their immunities (natural not item gained) coupled with spells are better than the mass spell selection and restrictive weapon mastery ranger/cleric.[/QUOTE]I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but now I think we're getting down to preference more than anything. I love shapeshifting in PnP, but, like you said, in BG2 Druid shifting is horribly underpowered. Consequently I don't play a druid in BG2. That, however, is my preference more than anything.
Excellent. I didn't think so
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]a dude posted saying druids suck - must have been a newb. True Ranger/Cleric to tend to beat druids in BG2 - but in Icewind Dale their the true Ranger/Cleric only gains up to level 4 in druid spells so its doubtful anyone would pick it.[/quote]
I never played IWD, but that idea does have merit. Imo, druid spells should be for... well... druids.
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]Also - I hate it how druids are only referred to in single class means - try a fighter/avenger or a wizardslayer/druid vs the ranger/cleric and then we'll see who is the better.[/quote]
Hmmmm.... you see, I don't buy it, mainly because of one thing- the druid XP table. Up to level 7 or 8, Druids and Clerics are essentially identical. As I mentioned before though, Clerics advance at a much faster rate from levels 10+. This means that the Cleric will have more spells, better spells, better THACo, etc.
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]Even the berserker/cleric is an awesome class - especially when its powerhousing with 5 proficiencies in a weapon and another 3, not 2 in comparison to the ranger/cleric, in two-weapon fighting. The spells that the ranger/cleric has can be exploited as they aren't suppose to have them in the first place - this coupled with the fact shapeshifters are underpowered makes the game exploitable. Although the ranger/cleric seems good with the divine spells leaking out of every orifice, I still think either of the fighter/avenger or berserker/cleric can not only beat them in combat but also their immunities (natural not item gained) coupled with spells are better than the mass spell selection and restrictive weapon mastery ranger/cleric.[/QUOTE]I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but now I think we're getting down to preference more than anything. I love shapeshifting in PnP, but, like you said, in BG2 Druid shifting is horribly underpowered. Consequently I don't play a druid in BG2. That, however, is my preference more than anything.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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Further Reply
A max druid in Bg1 has +10hp, plus 1 spell slot available in EVERY spell level in comparison to the max level of a cleric. But in bg2 SOA, the level is a way let down - but then when TOB came out - it made the druid a force to reckon with.
The druid in bg1 may not seem like much as they don't have dispel magic - but that +1 spell slot in every level which includes spells like remove fear and animal summoning, and that +10hp did do wonders.
Cleric are powering healers - druids do heal but their list of offensive spellcasting is amazingl when compared to a cleric - skeleton warrior vs fire elemental ? ironskin vs holy power ? natures beauty vs sunray are the big two - sunray damages and explodes undead - natures beauty permanently blinds or kills. The druids have a more offensive spellcasting powers in Icewind Dale but also in BG2 in my opinion. Preferences - one druid is good - fighter/avenger - or totemic druid I hear have been getting nifty reviews from other gamers (not an animal lover - prefer creeping doom) - now lets resort back to the original topic of this post - best cheese character ? ever fought a level 40 monk ? Good luck. Or maybe that 20 constitution half-orc barbarian - try takng him down on melee yeah right. But since these are 'plain characters' I wont' submit them as a cheese character - most likely wizardslayer/thief would raise a few eyebrows, but kensai/mage probably takes it - kensai thief would be good but no personal experience in it.
A max druid in Bg1 has +10hp, plus 1 spell slot available in EVERY spell level in comparison to the max level of a cleric. But in bg2 SOA, the level is a way let down - but then when TOB came out - it made the druid a force to reckon with.
The druid in bg1 may not seem like much as they don't have dispel magic - but that +1 spell slot in every level which includes spells like remove fear and animal summoning, and that +10hp did do wonders.
Cleric are powering healers - druids do heal but their list of offensive spellcasting is amazingl when compared to a cleric - skeleton warrior vs fire elemental ? ironskin vs holy power ? natures beauty vs sunray are the big two - sunray damages and explodes undead - natures beauty permanently blinds or kills. The druids have a more offensive spellcasting powers in Icewind Dale but also in BG2 in my opinion. Preferences - one druid is good - fighter/avenger - or totemic druid I hear have been getting nifty reviews from other gamers (not an animal lover - prefer creeping doom) - now lets resort back to the original topic of this post - best cheese character ? ever fought a level 40 monk ? Good luck. Or maybe that 20 constitution half-orc barbarian - try takng him down on melee yeah right. But since these are 'plain characters' I wont' submit them as a cheese character - most likely wizardslayer/thief would raise a few eyebrows, but kensai/mage probably takes it - kensai thief would be good but no personal experience in it.