The Old Days

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:02 pm

I have installed up to my ears mods of every calibre and difficulty to further improve and make difficult the game of BG2 TOB and now lately I began to miss the old times.

Where I'd scrape by making ends meat and doing anything for a shiny gold coin - *almost anything* - it would take two gold coins for *that*

With no mods or xp cap remover when I was still young - I was well-dressed, hair combed and able-bodied, unlike the bum-looking sarcastic anti-social black-belt person I am now, I was able to conquer the game.

I remember spending 90mins-2hours getting out the Irenicus dungeon with every non-magic item strapped to my naked body with a crew of nobodies trodding along behind me.

I remember defeating kangaxx on solo with a high level cleric/mage equiped with only the staff of rhynn that cost me everything I owned plus the kitchen sink.

I miss those days and I am going to back to my roots (or whatever you want to call it)

Does anyone else feel that mods, although tactically challenging and highly addictive for us powergamers, have made you miss the way things use to be ? Waiting in the forest, running from bears or hiding in shadows about to backstab that single mage praying to everyone you can think of that he hits em ?

Maybe I'm just feeling sentimental but if you care to post I'd like to listen in on your views !

Aztaroth · Post by **Aztaroth** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:48 pm

I agree! Not only the points you already mentioned, but the character, somehow, was more of a *person*... he didn't have a wisdom score of 3 just to get those extra 18-s, his sole purpose wasn't to cleave a path through hordes of enemies, or to blast his foes with ridiculous amounts of power, but to *live*, in a sense.

There was much more of a sense of... SOMETHING when you killed Firkraag with your party of randomly assorted people, and took what then seemed to be the most powerful weapon in the world from his corpse, and as the huge adrenaline rush slowly recedes, you realized you had just gotten a new level, something that then seemed like a huge accomplishment and excitement rushes through you again!

And when Irenicus said he took your soul, I really, REALLY wanted to rips his guts out and hang him from his own ENTRAILS!!! With mods and such, you'll at that point be thinking what abilities and spells you'll use when you get to fight him.

So, yeah, I agree with you

Not only a mod-free play-though, but the virgin play in general is something that should truly be treasured.

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:54 pm

Reply

Hell yes that's what I'm talking about - once went through all my mods with a random party that felt crap cause it was either too-overpowering or less fulfilling as it was not based on survival but tactics and item gaining.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:06 pm

I had an epiphany in the other day, twas nice.

For the first time on an unmodded game, Jaheira was backstabbed to death and ripped of from the face of Faerun without chances of comming back by those thieves that are waiting for you in the Irenicus chateau. I am playing at insane, but I never expected a backstab to work, and it did.

I have not been playing games without Tactics for centuries. Anyway...

I miss my first solo run. With a Barbarian. Nothing would stand on my way. Also, I would never stand on my path - dual wielding axes, or flails and axes... Lotsa potions, lotsa barbarian rages later, I killed Joneleth. Ooh those were days.

RBitG · Post by **RBitG** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:19 pm

Ah yes, i remember choosing spells for my Sorceror such as Minor Drain, Teleport Field and Lesser Earth Elemental, i must have used them about three times in the entire game. Firkaag's pet golems scared me out of his dungeon, and the Shadow Dragon was just so friggin big that i didn't even consider fighting him, and the portals in the Planar Prision just freaked me out. I remember screwing up Aerie's romance, and then hating myself for the rest of the day when i realised she dumped me. But even now, on what must be my tenth run, after slaying two Dragons before the Underdark, and disembowling Wizards left and right, when i listen to the song 'Kashmir' i am taken back to a time steeped in the joy of discovery and adventure, back in the old Copper Coronet.

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:41 pm

More More More

Good stuff people !

More more more !

I knew I wasn't the only sentamentalist out there ! That or either after completing the game with a power party with every installed mod known the man - maybe we just need to go back to the old days of survival and maintaining that survival. Plus we are all the wiser after all our gaming experience and battles on god know's what mod fights.

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:00 pm

Further

If anyone else feels this way please post I'd like to hear your thoughts as I'm sure many would about this particular topic.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:36 pm

I am wondering one thing: why do you people always associate Mod's (and thus improved difficulty) with powergaming? Is it, somehow, impossible to roleplay while having Tactics installed?

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:49 pm

Reply

Ah a very good point (although 'you people'? why don't you just call us mod-users eg) - I tend to think its due to the difficulty that is presented in the mods that the gamer has to utilize every option available in the game without cheating - although this does tend to result in 20 odd reloads on occasions I have heard - my heart goes out to anyone that has had that !

As for powergamin, I am going to attempt, based on previous posts mentioned, I have recently recieved a sentimental streak, a brand new full installed un-modded BG2 TOB game on normal rules - but also removing the TOB chars in the characters - I'll find out if gaming can be achieved without the modded game ! Also a new thread will be made for ideas about the new party as I'd like opinions.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:31 pm

First off, with 'you people', I meant the people who have posted in this thread so far. If I offended anyone, I apologise. I'm always playing with Mod's, but I don't always powerplay. Frankly, I prefer roleplaying above powerplaying.

That said, I've once tried to beat Tactics, Improved battles, etc. without dying or reloading (the thread was called 'The Deathless Journey', if you're interested). I got pretty far without the use of too much powerplay, but at a certain point in the game I was simply overclassed.

What I did discover during that game, however, was that trying to beat those Mod's without dying or reloading gave me back some of my old sentiments. You have to be very careful, think about every weapon, armor and item purchase, weigh every quest, and consider every NPC thoroughly.

So when I'm playing a game now, I install loads of Mod's (just not every battle-enhancing mod anymore, that's just undoable), set the difficulty on core rules, and start the game again, from the beginning. I'm consequently breaking off my game when I die, so every journey through BG: SoA and ToB is, to a certain point, exciting and new. I barely powerplay, prefer to keep my party as fun as possible without disturbing the balance between NPC's too much, and stick to the theme of the specific game as close as possible.

Playing through a modded BG with a ‘sneaky’ party consisting of my own Archer-Thief, Imoen, Dalis, Yoshimo, Valygar, Jan and Nalia is quite interesting. I roleplay, think about each encounter carefully, and take the game one step at a time. If you play the game by the 'no deaths, no reloads' principle, powergaming isn’t so much of an option anymore. There’s no way I’m able to beat the Twisted Rune or the Guarded Compound when I’m early in or halfway through the game. Even though their powerful items would aid me greatly, I'm also quite sure that I will die in the process and thus end my game.

Come to think of it, I never beat both Tactics and Improved Battles with any one party. The farthest I got was to the Pontifex in ToB at Watchers Keep with my own Archer-Thief, Jaheira, Minsc (who died, although first Keldorn and then Saravok took his place), Kelsey, Imoen/Yoshimo and Anomen.

It was quite tough in the beginning (I lost Minsc early on), until I got my second mage, Imoen back. From then, I practically walked all the way to Suldanesselar without breaking a sweat. It was in the final fight with Irenicus (where I lost Keldorn) and in ToB (where my own PC died) when the real trouble started brewing again.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:35 pm

[QUOTE=Sytze]I am wondering one thing: why do you people always associate Mod's (and thus improved difficulty) with powergaming? Is it, somehow, impossible to roleplay while having Tactics installed?[/QUOTE]

Ah, this reminds me of the deathless journey. Good old days, my archer heathen friend describing his adventures against thousands of enemies

@Sytze, see, I've never actually beaten the last ToB battle without cheating, because there are countless waves of enemies returning (in ascension mod, of course, redemption installed). And I do not powerplay a lot (I know certain cheeses and I know how nice they are to use) but powerplaying is essencial to beat the last amelissan battle. (The five can be pretty annoying in group).

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:48 pm

Reply

Okay dokey

I agree with you - I only managed so far on tactics mod but I was able to defeat many of the enemies until I was neglecting my studies and was forced to remove the game and concentrate.

For now though - mods ? no thanks just want a fresh start.

RBitG · Post by **RBitG** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:49 pm

[QUOTE=Sytze]First off, with 'you people', I meant the people who have posted in this thread so far. If I offended anyone, I apologise. I'm always playing with Mod's, but I don't always powerplay. Frankly, I prefer roleplaying above powerplaying.

That said, I've once tried to beat Tactics, Improved battles, etc. without dying or reloading (the thread was called 'The Deathless Journey', if you're interested). I got pretty far without the use of too much powerplay, but at a certain point in the game I was simply overclassed.

What I did discover during that game, however, was that trying to beat those Mod's without dying or reloading gave me back some of my old sentiments. You have to be very careful, think about every weapon, armor and item purchase, weigh every quest, and consider every NPC thoroughly.

So when I'm playing a game now, I install loads of Mod's (just not every battle-enhancing mod anymore, that's just undoable), set the difficulty on core rules, and start the game again, from the beginning. I'm consequently breaking off my game when I die, so every journey through BG: SoA and ToB is, to a certain point, exciting and new. I barely powerplay, prefer to keep my party as fun as possible without disturbing the balance between NPC's too much, and stick to the theme of the specific game as close as possible.

Playing through a modded BG with a ‘sneaky’ party consisting of my own Archer-Thief, Imoen, Dalis, Yoshimo, Valygar, Jan and Nalia is quite interesting. I roleplay, think about each encounter carefully, and take the game one step at a time. If you play the game by the 'no deaths, no reloads' principle, powergaming isn’t so much of an option anymore. There’s no way I’m able to beat the Twisted Rune or the Guarded Compound when I’m early in or halfway through the game. Even though their powerful items would aid me greatly, I'm also quite sure that I will die in the process and thus end my game.

Come to think of it, I never beat both Tactics and Improved Battles with any one party. The farthest I got was to the Pontifex in ToB at Watchers Keep with my own Archer-Thief, Jaheira, Minsc (who died, although first Keldorn and then Saravok took his place), Kelsey, Imoen/Yoshimo and Anomen.

It was quite tough in the beginning (I lost Minsc early on), until I got my second mage, Imoen back. From then, I practically walked all the way to Suldanesselar without breaking a sweat. It was in the final fight with Irenicus (where I lost Keldorn) and in ToB (where my own PC died) when the real trouble started brewing again.[/QUOTE]

Wow, that sounds fun, i'll have to try that out.

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:56 pm

Reply

Some advice - through everything plus the kitchen sink in every battle or you won't make it

Earnest · Post by **Earnest** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:38 pm

I am thoroughly sentimental and i can sympathise with many of the points made in this thread. I just finished BG2 and ToB and Im trying to motivate to start over, perhaps with a party with no melee characters.

One thing i remember from my first play through, was trying to equip a ring or other magic artefact and being told (in red letters i think) that I already have a magic item on and cannot equip any more. With all the mods ive been using I have been able to wear whatever i like, getting AC and saves down to crazy levels. Does anyone play with this 'one magic item' rule? How prohibitive is it when you get to ToB? Im tempted to remove the relevant mods and give this a go.

Nothing can match that virgin playthrough. Part of the joy of replaying this game is invoking those memories.

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:55 am

Reply

Go for it - I recently did the same thing except for one thing - install a mod that contained the 'Shut Up you must gather your party' and faster chapter 1 and 2 scenes - those I found useful given how long I have played the game.

SimDing0 · Post by **SimDing0** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:14 am

[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]Does anyone else feel that mods, although tactically challenging and highly addictive for us powergamers, have made you miss the way things use to be ? Waiting in the forest, running from bears or hiding in shadows about to backstab that single mage praying to everyone you can think of that he hits em ?[/QUOTE]
This is the thinking behind such mods as DEF JAM. It decreases XP rewards, so your party will be lower-level throughout the game. Effectively, it increases game difficulty without making all the battles stupidly overpowered, so there's even more of a sense of fighting for your life.

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:54 am

Reply

Interesting post, and more so after reading about the Def Jam link to the mod, although the so called 'purity' of the game has been mentioned several times and that was what I was hoping for others to catch - on no mods when you play it again.

Although the original BG2 TOB unmodded completely is what I am trying now, the difficulty setting in comparison to the XP is accurate - in several battles with parties I have only barely escaped encounters, if this mod is installed it loses the so called 'purity' of the game.

On the subject of the xp cap remover - the mods that use this are intended to be as difficult as possible and thus REQUIRE you to be at that level but also with the knowledge and tactics so succeed at that level.

Although the House of Sim mod may alter the game difficulty-xp reward ratio, it would be good if someone made a pure mod - such as restore original game areas and battles and recover lost plots that the game was designed with without going into so much as uber battles or tweaking the game to make it so that the modifications would be a worthwhile addition or that they would balance the game without ever being a part of the original game design.

SimDing0 · Post by **SimDing0** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:18 am

There are plenty of mods about which do this. It's unfortunate that "mod" has, in many places, become synonymous with "tactical challenge". Unfinished Business seems like the best example of what you're specifying, but basically all the mods I involve myself in are designed under the principle that the original game's level, balance and difficulty are pretty good already.

Amran_X_Kaiser · Post by **Amran_X_Kaiser** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:04 pm

Reply

Sounds like something worth investigating. Always wondered how Kalah got that wish from the Djini....