Further Reply
A max druid in Bg1 has +10hp, plus 1 spell slot available in EVERY spell level in comparison to the max level of a cleric. But in bg2 SOA, the level is a way let down - but then when TOB came out - it made the druid a force to reckon with.
The druid in bg1 may not seem like much as they don't have dispel magic - but that +1 spell slot in every level which includes spells like remove fear and animal summoning, and that +10hp did do wonders.
Cleric are powering healers - druids do heal but their list of offensive spellcasting is amazingl when compared to a cleric - skeleton warrior vs fire elemental ? ironskin vs holy power ? natures beauty vs sunray are the big two - sunray damages and explodes undead - natures beauty permanently blinds or kills. The druids have a more offensive spellcasting powers in Icewind Dale but also in BG2 in my opinion. Preferences - one druid is good - fighter/avenger - or totemic druid I hear have been getting nifty reviews from other gamers (not an animal lover - prefer creeping doom) - now lets resort back to the original topic of this post - best cheese character ? ever fought a level 40 monk ? Good luck. Or maybe that 20 constitution half-orc barbarian - try takng him down on melee yeah right. But since these are 'plain characters' I wont' submit them as a cheese character - most likely wizardslayer/thief would raise a few eyebrows, but kensai/mage probably takes it - kensai thief would be good but no personal experience in it.
Ultimate Cheese Character
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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avenger dual to fighter, how is that make u a great druid?
wizardslayer -> druid? cant use any powerful weapon how u gonna slay?
fighter/druid or berserker -> druid sounds more reasonable.
if ur using shadowkeeper then of course no class will suck.
avenger dual to fighter, how is that make u a great druid?
wizardslayer -> druid? cant use any powerful weapon how u gonna slay?
fighter/druid or berserker -> druid sounds more reasonable.
if ur using shadowkeeper then of course no class will suck.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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I'm not talking about being a great druid - I don't use shadowkeeper to dual-class but I can't speak for anyone else.
Alot of replies have compared ranger/clerics to druids (single class - not dual class where there abilities would be greater)
WizardSlayer/Druids don't lose the abilities to use magical weapons, armor, boots or helmets or potions - couple that with innate magic and elemental resistance and the abilitity to cast spells such as ironskin and creepingdoom - is that a poor class ?
Powerful weapons ?? Impaler spear, spear of the unicorn, staff of ram, belm+2, spectral brand, dagger of the star+5, crimson dart - wow none of those are 'powerful slaying' weapons - but ofcourse the immunities and spell mentioned above would only make slaying easier.
As for avenger/druid - its possible dual-classing (at several points) without shadow keeper but don't expect me to give you the answer if you couldn't find it yourself go and roleplay some more.
'Reasonable' may have helped you in BG1 but it certainly won't help you here. The dual-classing specialist classes provided in BG2 allow you to create classes with varying abilities and strengths, I suggest you try some.
I'm not talking about being a great druid - I don't use shadowkeeper to dual-class but I can't speak for anyone else.
Alot of replies have compared ranger/clerics to druids (single class - not dual class where there abilities would be greater)
WizardSlayer/Druids don't lose the abilities to use magical weapons, armor, boots or helmets or potions - couple that with innate magic and elemental resistance and the abilitity to cast spells such as ironskin and creepingdoom - is that a poor class ?
Powerful weapons ?? Impaler spear, spear of the unicorn, staff of ram, belm+2, spectral brand, dagger of the star+5, crimson dart - wow none of those are 'powerful slaying' weapons - but ofcourse the immunities and spell mentioned above would only make slaying easier.
As for avenger/druid - its possible dual-classing (at several points) without shadow keeper but don't expect me to give you the answer if you couldn't find it yourself go and roleplay some more.
'Reasonable' may have helped you in BG1 but it certainly won't help you here. The dual-classing specialist classes provided in BG2 allow you to create classes with varying abilities and strengths, I suggest you try some.
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Luis Antonio
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[QUOTE=BG_DaDDy]Reply to Amran_X_Kiser
wizardslayer -> druid? cant use any powerful weapon how u gonna slay?
[/QUOTE]
Oooh yes, I had forgotten. Crom is a very poor weapon. Not to mention club of detonation. Ah, and the Staff of the Ram is too bad as well. Oh, there's everard sling - but slings are for sissies (as Cespenar says).
Oh well. Back to cleaning I guesses.
wizardslayer -> druid? cant use any powerful weapon how u gonna slay?
[/QUOTE]
Oooh yes, I had forgotten. Crom is a very poor weapon. Not to mention club of detonation. Ah, and the Staff of the Ram is too bad as well. Oh, there's everard sling - but slings are for sissies (as Cespenar says).
Oh well. Back to cleaning I guesses.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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you're excepting to use EXP cap remover. Again, using this any class can be chessy. (since you can do whatever you like) fighter/thief/mage with EXP cap remover no one can kill you. The thing we're talking right here is totally using no cheat and no mod. if you dual your avenger to fighter, you lose half of your spells and you're certainly not more powerful than a fighter/druid.
Single-class druid sucks because he doesnt provide enough offense/defense/spell buffs. Avenger can be good because he get access to some useful mage spells. (chromatic orb, web (better than entangle), lighting bolt, improve invisibility, chaos, and chain lighting) Druids' offensive spell cannot compare to mage, and their defensive/buff spells are not strong as the clerics. Imo, the only useful druid spells are ironskin, insect plauge, call woodland being, dolorus decay, and nature beauty) Conjure fire elemental is not good when u get a 8HD one and it gets charmed too easily. In Tob, this can be replaced by elemental summoning, which creates two 16HD elementals in one cast. (way better than conjure fire elemental) Call lighting can only be used outdoor so it's pratically useless. (it doesnt do that much dmg anyway) i guess the only reason u want to be a druid is because of greater elemental summoning, but then u can only summon one of them at the time, so the ability doesnt make a real catch up.
The reason that ranger/cleric or berserker -> cleric is better than fighter/druid is becuase not only he accesses to all druid spells (despite greater elemental summoning), and he can also use the cleric buff spells. (draw upon holy strenght, righteous magic, harmony, etc; the spells that druids dont have) Create undead (another wonderful spell when u get lvl15) and holy smite. (powerful in Tob) Also, being a fighter/cleric or ranger/cleric can use blunt weapon like flail of age +5 and crom fayer. I dont think u will have the luxury for being a fighter/druid. fighter/druid can only use scrimitar, spear, club, sling, staff and dagger. Ilixie spike +6, spectral band +5 (with belm +2), club of detonation +5 and Staff of Ram +6 are four of the best weapons for druids. However, these items dont really have the share-power of fail of age +5 or runehammer +5 with crom fayer. Imo, cleric just have better buff spells. Beside, when you have fighter's ability to combat, you dont really "need" offensive spells. you can just hack your way by buffing yourself and hammering monsters to death. (greater whirlwind)
I'm not saying druids are completely useless. I'm just saying that a muti-class fighter/druid or berserk -> druid will be way better than avenger -> fighter, and certainly than a single-class druid
Btw, doesnt if you're a wizardslayer and dual to druid, you still cant use magic items? (Unless you have a thief class)
Single-class druid sucks because he doesnt provide enough offense/defense/spell buffs. Avenger can be good because he get access to some useful mage spells. (chromatic orb, web (better than entangle), lighting bolt, improve invisibility, chaos, and chain lighting) Druids' offensive spell cannot compare to mage, and their defensive/buff spells are not strong as the clerics. Imo, the only useful druid spells are ironskin, insect plauge, call woodland being, dolorus decay, and nature beauty) Conjure fire elemental is not good when u get a 8HD one and it gets charmed too easily. In Tob, this can be replaced by elemental summoning, which creates two 16HD elementals in one cast. (way better than conjure fire elemental) Call lighting can only be used outdoor so it's pratically useless. (it doesnt do that much dmg anyway) i guess the only reason u want to be a druid is because of greater elemental summoning, but then u can only summon one of them at the time, so the ability doesnt make a real catch up.
The reason that ranger/cleric or berserker -> cleric is better than fighter/druid is becuase not only he accesses to all druid spells (despite greater elemental summoning), and he can also use the cleric buff spells. (draw upon holy strenght, righteous magic, harmony, etc; the spells that druids dont have) Create undead (another wonderful spell when u get lvl15) and holy smite. (powerful in Tob) Also, being a fighter/cleric or ranger/cleric can use blunt weapon like flail of age +5 and crom fayer. I dont think u will have the luxury for being a fighter/druid. fighter/druid can only use scrimitar, spear, club, sling, staff and dagger. Ilixie spike +6, spectral band +5 (with belm +2), club of detonation +5 and Staff of Ram +6 are four of the best weapons for druids. However, these items dont really have the share-power of fail of age +5 or runehammer +5 with crom fayer. Imo, cleric just have better buff spells. Beside, when you have fighter's ability to combat, you dont really "need" offensive spells. you can just hack your way by buffing yourself and hammering monsters to death. (greater whirlwind)
I'm not saying druids are completely useless. I'm just saying that a muti-class fighter/druid or berserk -> druid will be way better than avenger -> fighter, and certainly than a single-class druid
Btw, doesnt if you're a wizardslayer and dual to druid, you still cant use magic items? (Unless you have a thief class)
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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I have never used XP cap remover - messes up the game too much.
As for losing spells when I return yes that has happened to me once, once not every other time I have created an avenger/druid - at first I thought it was a problem with one of the mods or in import/export phase. At this point I also care to mention that when I dual classed my kensai-mage I also lost their abilities, could this to be import/export fault similar to the avenger/fighter ? But whether or not these problems have ever risen again, my answer is no but they may well do so for anyone that reads this you have been warned !
If you hack your way through a game why use spells at all ?
Mage spells are more variety - do you expect a cleric to match up against the power of a mage ? Druid spells are more offensive than clerics and thus are not designed to be a backup class like the cleric. But I give the cleric a bit of negative view here and that's my error, berserker/clerics can be utilized to buff, heal and go in and waste any undead or creature that can be hit by a hammer/flail combo. Their offensive spells make short work of undead - sunray you beauty !
Alot of level 6 spells go to Conjure Fire Elemental as it frees up an extra slot in the level 7 and this useful but I won't dictate how another person should choose their spells.
However I disagree saying that ANY spell is useless, Call Lightning does do damage but also does repeated damage on different opponents - I found this to be random so rephramed from using it. Draw Upon Holy Might lasts for 1 round then ends - useful for short skirmishes. Harmony can be used by also be used by the druid and the skeleton warrior summons only come into effect once you reach level 15, but then so the fire elemental has its own advantages now doesn't it.
Here's the thing which I think may finally get to you - if you hack your way through with buffing spells of holy power and righteous magic, whilst the defensive spells of ironskin and long-lasting barskin would allow you to cast offensive spells AND be able to slice up those pesky monsters. Hit a fighter enough times no matter what buffing or items they have - they will eventually fall without proper healing/offensive spells - but casting those in the middle of a melee fight without the versatility a druid defensive spell list is another thing.
Useless items nah. How many items do you plan to use if you have resistance to elements, magic, poison, can cast defensive spells such as ironskin and cast offensive spells such as insect plague. Berserker rage is useful but then not everyone has it. Boots, helms, potions, weapons and armor can make up for it (depending on opinion of whom you ask) if you have the right equipment. I never thought to need items of that magnitude and power as they were never required - the versatility that was provided by the avenger/druid covered battles neatly.
Oh and interesting note on that dolorious decay - have to use that some time on some poor chump.
Berserker/Druid ? I read somewhere about someone trying out a kensai/druid - ah the possibilities.
I have never used XP cap remover - messes up the game too much.
As for losing spells when I return yes that has happened to me once, once not every other time I have created an avenger/druid - at first I thought it was a problem with one of the mods or in import/export phase. At this point I also care to mention that when I dual classed my kensai-mage I also lost their abilities, could this to be import/export fault similar to the avenger/fighter ? But whether or not these problems have ever risen again, my answer is no but they may well do so for anyone that reads this you have been warned !
If you hack your way through a game why use spells at all ?
Mage spells are more variety - do you expect a cleric to match up against the power of a mage ? Druid spells are more offensive than clerics and thus are not designed to be a backup class like the cleric. But I give the cleric a bit of negative view here and that's my error, berserker/clerics can be utilized to buff, heal and go in and waste any undead or creature that can be hit by a hammer/flail combo. Their offensive spells make short work of undead - sunray you beauty !
Alot of level 6 spells go to Conjure Fire Elemental as it frees up an extra slot in the level 7 and this useful but I won't dictate how another person should choose their spells.
However I disagree saying that ANY spell is useless, Call Lightning does do damage but also does repeated damage on different opponents - I found this to be random so rephramed from using it. Draw Upon Holy Might lasts for 1 round then ends - useful for short skirmishes. Harmony can be used by also be used by the druid and the skeleton warrior summons only come into effect once you reach level 15, but then so the fire elemental has its own advantages now doesn't it.
Here's the thing which I think may finally get to you - if you hack your way through with buffing spells of holy power and righteous magic, whilst the defensive spells of ironskin and long-lasting barskin would allow you to cast offensive spells AND be able to slice up those pesky monsters. Hit a fighter enough times no matter what buffing or items they have - they will eventually fall without proper healing/offensive spells - but casting those in the middle of a melee fight without the versatility a druid defensive spell list is another thing.
Useless items nah. How many items do you plan to use if you have resistance to elements, magic, poison, can cast defensive spells such as ironskin and cast offensive spells such as insect plague. Berserker rage is useful but then not everyone has it. Boots, helms, potions, weapons and armor can make up for it (depending on opinion of whom you ask) if you have the right equipment. I never thought to need items of that magnitude and power as they were never required - the versatility that was provided by the avenger/druid covered battles neatly.
Oh and interesting note on that dolorious decay - have to use that some time on some poor chump.
Berserker/Druid ? I read somewhere about someone trying out a kensai/druid - ah the possibilities.
[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]
If you hack your way through a game why use spells at all ?
[/QUOTE]
...Just like Kensai/Mage, the spells are there to make you more powerful or against other mages. Usually when i play a fighter with some magical ability, i mainly choose buffing/summon over offensive, like fireball or dragon breath those types, since it's pointless casting them when you can just bash the monsters. (sure the effects are cool) i would much rather free up space and get more buff spells so i can make my fighter stronger, and he will kill faster.
i just dont get why avenger -> fighter, wouldnt a plain fighter be better? muti-class fighter/druid or fighter -> druid make much more sense to me.
and if you're a wizardslayer -> druid, u cant use magic items. So no boot of speed, rings, bracers, and amulets. He is just a little bit underpower.
Imo, the only single-class druid that is worth mentioning is avenger. tometic and shapeshifter dont really stand a chance. Spirit animal is easily get banished from death spell, (like the rest of the animal summons) and the ability of turning into greater werewolf doesnt worth half a damn. (elemental transformation beats them by miles)
If you hack your way through a game why use spells at all ?
[/QUOTE]
...Just like Kensai/Mage, the spells are there to make you more powerful or against other mages. Usually when i play a fighter with some magical ability, i mainly choose buffing/summon over offensive, like fireball or dragon breath those types, since it's pointless casting them when you can just bash the monsters. (sure the effects are cool) i would much rather free up space and get more buff spells so i can make my fighter stronger, and he will kill faster.
i just dont get why avenger -> fighter, wouldnt a plain fighter be better? muti-class fighter/druid or fighter -> druid make much more sense to me.
and if you're a wizardslayer -> druid, u cant use magic items. So no boot of speed, rings, bracers, and amulets. He is just a little bit underpower.
Imo, the only single-class druid that is worth mentioning is avenger. tometic and shapeshifter dont really stand a chance. Spirit animal is easily get banished from death spell, (like the rest of the animal summons) and the ability of turning into greater werewolf doesnt worth half a damn. (elemental transformation beats them by miles)
Got Question from BG series? NO PRoblem, ask BG_DaDDy, YAh.
Dualling from a caster class to a fighter is kinda silly- you don't get the HP bonuses, your spells are weak, and you don't get the proficiencies.
Avenger->Fighter is much weaker than a Fighter/Druid, or even a straight Avenger.
I find druids in general to be rather silly: they cast, they shapeshift, but they can't do both at the same time. Totemic removes shapeshift but gives almost nothing in return.
I find Cleric types much better with Turning, but Ranger-> Cleric is lovely, and though I haven't tried it, Stalker->Cleric would be interesting too, with the extra spells. Shame that it can't backstab anymore.
For me, Bounty Hunter is by far the most cheesy character around. The special traps are thrown (huge difference) and bust the fight right open, especially once you get to level 21. The effects are almost impossible to resist.
Blade is quite cheesy, or more accurately, improved bard song is cheesy.
Inquisitor is also cheesy with its double level dispel magic.
Avenger->Fighter is much weaker than a Fighter/Druid, or even a straight Avenger.
I find druids in general to be rather silly: they cast, they shapeshift, but they can't do both at the same time. Totemic removes shapeshift but gives almost nothing in return.
I find Cleric types much better with Turning, but Ranger-> Cleric is lovely, and though I haven't tried it, Stalker->Cleric would be interesting too, with the extra spells. Shame that it can't backstab anymore.
For me, Bounty Hunter is by far the most cheesy character around. The special traps are thrown (huge difference) and bust the fight right open, especially once you get to level 21. The effects are almost impossible to resist.
Blade is quite cheesy, or more accurately, improved bard song is cheesy.
Inquisitor is also cheesy with its double level dispel magic.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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lol I can understand your point - i'm not going to force the druid or you or anyone else, but after a long time playing bg2 with and without mod and tactic and ascension style battles, I found the avenger/druid to be one of the most powerful classes around.
Can I ask why do you think the avenger/fighter is weaker than a basic druid/fighter or avenger ?
lol I can understand your point - i'm not going to force the druid or you or anyone else, but after a long time playing bg2 with and without mod and tactic and ascension style battles, I found the avenger/druid to be one of the most powerful classes around.
Can I ask why do you think the avenger/fighter is weaker than a basic druid/fighter or avenger ?
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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When I use to 'powergame' on the mods I sent my characters against an opponent one at a time that I felt could test their effectiveness.
On tactics this made it worthwhile if only to see if they actually succeeded in beating a high-level mage with a druid or an assassin/fighter against a full plated warrior.
The avenger/fighter I sent against mekrath and that glacias dude in de arnise keep - once that guy hasted himself argh - beat him but he took a bit of a bashing. Although after this fight a little later I had to uninstall the game so as to whether or not he was a good char to have throughout the game in comparison to all the other characters that have been mentioned and most likely played for the entire game... guess I'll have to find out in the summer when I'm off from exams.
When I use to 'powergame' on the mods I sent my characters against an opponent one at a time that I felt could test their effectiveness.
On tactics this made it worthwhile if only to see if they actually succeeded in beating a high-level mage with a druid or an assassin/fighter against a full plated warrior.
The avenger/fighter I sent against mekrath and that glacias dude in de arnise keep - once that guy hasted himself argh - beat him but he took a bit of a bashing. Although after this fight a little later I had to uninstall the game so as to whether or not he was a good char to have throughout the game in comparison to all the other characters that have been mentioned and most likely played for the entire game... guess I'll have to find out in the summer when I'm off from exams.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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That recent post reminds me to post a reply to an earlier post by Schu,
HP bonuses ar important but the extra spells and the versatility of an avenger/druid make up for it if you know how to play it. The spells are not weak - you get level 7 spells in an abundance and every spell before is also apaprent, you DO get the proficiences when you dual class to a fighter and the plate mail usability. The avenger/fighter beats the fighter/druid in terms of spell and shapeshifting ability and the straight avenger cannot wear plate mail or match the attack power in terms of thaco and proficiences of the avenger/fighter. The avenger/fighter beats em both.
Spellcasting then shapeshifting as always been a downside to the Shapeshifter class - the ability to not use spells whilst having total control over lycanthropy compared to other species such as Gythanki or MindFlayers.
The Totemic Druid gives spiritual animals - ever fought a spiritual bear, spiritual wolf whilst facing a spellcasting druid ? They are like Gwuenyvar from the Drizzt novels. They tear you apart if you have the right tactic (if Ritual or Tactics mods are installed this is very apparent)
However if memory serves me right the Stalker cannot dual-class to cleric - must be those additional spells they recieve on level 3, couple this with both druid spells and cleric spells the spellbook would overflow - this would be the oonly problem I can think of but for some reason you can't dual class to a cleric whilst being a stalker.
That recent post reminds me to post a reply to an earlier post by Schu,
HP bonuses ar important but the extra spells and the versatility of an avenger/druid make up for it if you know how to play it. The spells are not weak - you get level 7 spells in an abundance and every spell before is also apaprent, you DO get the proficiences when you dual class to a fighter and the plate mail usability. The avenger/fighter beats the fighter/druid in terms of spell and shapeshifting ability and the straight avenger cannot wear plate mail or match the attack power in terms of thaco and proficiences of the avenger/fighter. The avenger/fighter beats em both.
Spellcasting then shapeshifting as always been a downside to the Shapeshifter class - the ability to not use spells whilst having total control over lycanthropy compared to other species such as Gythanki or MindFlayers.
The Totemic Druid gives spiritual animals - ever fought a spiritual bear, spiritual wolf whilst facing a spellcasting druid ? They are like Gwuenyvar from the Drizzt novels. They tear you apart if you have the right tactic (if Ritual or Tactics mods are installed this is very apparent)
However if memory serves me right the Stalker cannot dual-class to cleric - must be those additional spells they recieve on level 3, couple this with both druid spells and cleric spells the spellbook would overflow - this would be the oonly problem I can think of but for some reason you can't dual class to a cleric whilst being a stalker.
About the Stalker->Cleric: You might be right. I seem to remember having had some problems along those lines. Oh well, the Ranger->Cleric would probably be better anyway. I guess that means the beastmaster can't dual either.
About Avenger->Fighter: I agree it seems to be fairly decent (as far as Druids go) build, but for so much of the game you're stuck with a nearly complete waste of space unless you want to dual-class earlier, and then your spells are stunted. Lose-lose situation.
About Totemic Druid: You can just use spells to summon instead. It's handy, but hardly a game-breaker.
About Avenger->Fighter: I agree it seems to be fairly decent (as far as Druids go) build, but for so much of the game you're stuck with a nearly complete waste of space unless you want to dual-class earlier, and then your spells are stunted. Lose-lose situation.
About Totemic Druid: You can just use spells to summon instead. It's handy, but hardly a game-breaker.
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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[QUOTE=Amran_X_Kaiser]
If you play Beastmaster your just asking to be beaten up ![/QUOTE]
Obviously Damn Tree-huggers!
About the Avenger->Fighter: It really seems like a lot of trouble for a character that is probably only just better (or maybe isn't better) as a tank than, say, a Ranger->Cleric or a Berserker->Cleric (I'm gonna test this for myself tonight), knows only the druid spells, can memorise less spells, AND CAN'T BE A TANK AND A CASTER AT THE SAME TIME!!!
And my characters dual at 12th level, so they're useful for most of the game (most of the leveling done while having an inactive class is done when my mages are memorising spells, while we are doing simple fed-ex quests etc.).
If you play Beastmaster your just asking to be beaten up ![/QUOTE]
Obviously
Damn Tree-huggers!About the Avenger->Fighter: It really seems like a lot of trouble for a character that is probably only just better (or maybe isn't better) as a tank than, say, a Ranger->Cleric or a Berserker->Cleric (I'm gonna test this for myself tonight), knows only the druid spells, can memorise less spells, AND CAN'T BE A TANK AND A CASTER AT THE SAME TIME!!!
And my characters dual at 12th level, so they're useful for most of the game (most of the leveling done while having an inactive class is done when my mages are memorising spells, while we are doing simple fed-ex quests etc.).
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Amran_X_Kaiser
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Think after all this talk its about to put this theory to the test.
Alot of useful info so might give it a go - but for now I have a party of sic playing:
Half-elf Jester
Half-Orc Cleric/Thief
Human Totemic Druid
Elf Beastmaster
Dwarf Assassin
Gnome Illusionist
Going to die shortly now doubt so until that happens the Avenger/Druid remains on ice.
Think after all this talk its about to put this theory to the test.
Alot of useful info so might give it a go - but for now I have a party of sic playing:
Half-elf Jester
Half-Orc Cleric/Thief
Human Totemic Druid
Elf Beastmaster
Dwarf Assassin
Gnome Illusionist
Going to die shortly now doubt so until that happens the Avenger/Druid remains on ice.