Would you defend yourself against a member of the opposite sex?

[Magrus]

This thought has been something that has tumbled through my mind on numerous times. On many instances, I have been cursed at by people because when the issue is brought up, I admit that if struck by a woman, I would hit back. It has dumbfounded me that people find that offense. However, I also realize that my life has worked differently than most people. My life has had violence in since the time I was able to walk, and that has had an affect on me in many, many ways.

So, I am curious, would you, or would you not defend yourself against a member of the opposite sex? In general, I suppose I am more interested in the males defending themselves against females aspect, because of my personal perspective. However, I am quite curious as to how females would react to a situation where they were in a situation of being attacked by a male instead. I am sure most females have worried of some form of attack by males.

And to alleviate any squirming out of the issue by pacifists and non-violent types...assume you are cornered, and are stuck with the choices of:

A: Taking a brutal attack while standing still
B: Defending yourself.

Sometimes, and I have been there, there are simply no other choices left. Sometimes, running and talking are no longer options, and you are left with those two choices.

Personally, I have been attacked, many times, mostly by males. I had a thing against hitting females for a long, long time. Until....I met the girl who found it amusing to draw blood on me because she knew I wouldn't hit her because she was female. I avoided her because of this, until I moved. Later....a 7-9 year old girl broke one of the sticks you play pool (billiards) with over my head, chipping a piece of my skull, for no reason other than she didn't like what I was saying. I was 14 years old by the way.

Those incidents left me with the opinion that if a woman is going to cause me physical harm, I would in no way hesitate to treat them in any manner differently than a male. Women want equal rights, and they deserve it, in all things I believe. I do not care what set of genitalia you happen to have, if you strike me you, you can expect a reaction that is the same whether you are male or female.

Opinions?

Edit: Since there have been people visualizing various scenarios, I'm going to put this here for those now reading the thread who won't be reading through the whole thing.

Assume the situation is: You are an innocent person on the street, and are backed into a corner in an alley and attack, for no reason at all beyond someone being cruel and malicious. The attacker is of the opposite gender, there is no way to get away from them without going through them. The attacker is using deadly force on you. Would you defend yourself?

[DaemonJ]

Regardless of the sex of my attacker I will defend myself.

[dragon wench]

I would defend myself against anyone who attacked me, male or female.

I'm not generally an aggressive person, but if I'm provoked....watch out!

[Magrus]

*nods* I happen to view it as irrational and biggoted to restrict self-defense to gender specific criteria personally.

[fable]

Having had a mother who regarded physical abuse against a small child as a great way to relieve frustration, I early learned that gender and cultural roles don't in any way identify people. I would have no problems with defending myself if attacked by a woman.

[Denethorn]

I find it very difficult to accept violence towards females. I've seen women abused to certain degrees and I find it downright disgusting. To that end I find it difficult to bestow any intentional physical harm upon a woman, even in the case of defense.

That said, I can become very aggressive when heavily provoked (such as in arguments with the female companion of the moment). While I like to think I have a high anger threshold, when I lose my temper it's pretty nasty

But I voted no, since I wouldn't do anything more than grab a woman's hands and restrain her were she attacking me. Perhaps its just my male instincts rising within to protect those sweet, innocent vessels of life

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Magrus]*nods* I happen to view it as irrational and biggoted to restrict self-defense to gender specific criteria personally. [/QUOTE]

Not just that... but there is a stereotype out there that women are always less violent than men. This is not true, there are all kinds of incidents involving violence perpetrated by women, but it is not something that is given as much media play.

I recall once in a Gender course I was taking at uni.... I raised this issue.. and it made the majority of the class *extremely* uncomfortable.

[Denethorn]

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Not just that... but there is a stereotype out there that women are always less violent than men. This is not true, there are all kinds of incidents involving violence perpetrated by women, but it is not something that is given as much media play[/QUOTE]

That certainly is true. Got plenty of images in my head of arrogant drunken women picking fights and throwing punches Nevertheless, while I may be being a bigot and irrational in not wishing to hit a woman, I do take the view that at a base level a male's duty is protect a woman, as it is a woman's duty to protect a child. Not being sexist to any degree, just talking about basic instincts, which I can certainly recognise within myself.

Now this largely depends on your definition of self-defense. Defending yourself does necessitate throwing a punch? So to the guys who've said they defend themselves against a particularly agitated woman, does that mean you'd raise your fist to a woman?

I don't think I could ever raise my fist to a woman, unless I was in some kind of drug fueled rage. Just don't see how I could ever manage it

[Magrus]

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Not just that... but there is a stereotype out there that women are always less violent than men. This is not true, there are all kinds of incidents involving violence perpetrated by women, but it is not something that is given as much media play.

I recall once in a Gender course I was taking at uni.... I raised this issue.. and it made the majority of the class *extremely* uncomfortable.[/QUOTE]

*nods* I have dated some crazy women. Beautiful, sweet, intelligent...but crazy. I distinctly remember having a knife pulled on me during an argument and having to difuse the situation. Women are raised in a world that is slowly coming to greet them as equals to men, instead of inferiors. Depending on where you grew up, and when....many women are either very aggressive, or very decietful in their manipulations of men. I have all sorts of respect for the female gender. A bit of fear too...

[QUOTE=Denethorn]I find it very difficult to accept violence towards females. I've seen women abused to certain degrees and I find it downright disgusting. To that end I find it difficult to bestow any intentional physical harm upon a woman, even in the case of defense.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, I've been the person most of my former female friends have turned to after being raped or abused by guys. Granted, it makes me protective of females, yet that in no way alters my perception of defending myself. Defending someone else who is being hurt has nothing to do with defenind myself really. If someone hits me in the face, they are in for a world of pain, penis or not.

From my experiences, a woman is more likely to react in a way that will cause a fatal reaction to you than a man. Why? Women know they are build in a different manner physically. They also know the majority of the opposite gender under-estimate them. Grabbing a weapon and striking with it suddenly not only shocks a male, but also disables him in a violent encounter, nearly ensuring victory. A male on the other hand, has the macho thing where they have the wish to do battle on even terms, and won't think of that until they are losing in most cases.

@ Denethorn, in my situation I presented, I mean like...backed into a corner, as in brick structure, no way to climb around it... and being attacked. Not slapped, but beaten, brutally. To the point you may not survive. Would you not defend yourself if it was a woman attacking you instead of guy?

[Darzog]

Well, I do have a disposition to protect women, and would be more willing to step in to protect a stranger on the street if they were a woman as opposed to a man. And in an argument I would never hit a woman first, but might throw the first punch at a guy.

That being said, if a woman attacks me I would respond in kind. Unless they were coming at me with a weapon I would most likely be more gentle with them than with another guy, but if they have a weapon (knife, pool cue, etc.) all bets are off.

I always loved my Hap Ki Do instructor's comment about having a fight. "If someone attacks you, once you've beaten them to the ground, give them a $20 bill and tell them to call a taxi; it will get there quicker than an ambulence. Always be gracious even in the face of your enemies."

[Denethorn]

[QUOTE=Magrus]
@ Denethorn, in my situation I presented, I mean like...backed into a corner, as in brick structure, no way to climb around it... and being attacked. Not slapped, but beaten, brutally. To the point you may not survive. Would you not defend yourself if it was a woman attacking you instead of guy?[/QUOTE]

That point is very much the edge and I don't know what would kick in. Probably adrenaline and survival instinct which completely overrides what I've said here Despite that, I think I would still have enough strength over the average woman to wrestle her to the ground or by other means subdue her.

Let's say I would 95% of the time put up a far more passive defense

[Magrus]

[QUOTE=Denethorn]That point is very much the edge and I don't know what would kick in. Probably adrenaline and survival instinct which completely overrides what I've said here Despite that, I think I would still have enough strength over the average woman to wrestle her to the ground or by other means subdue her.

Let's say I would 95% of the time put up a far more passive defense [/QUOTE]

Meh, I've been in fights before. Subdoing someone without handing out bruises or drawing blood takes skill and talent. Anyhow, that is still defending yourself, if by a means that ends in less pain to your attacker than beating him/her senseless and unconscious. I've been through enough fights to know the only way I'm guaranteed to have the person attacking me leave me alone is to have them unconscious on the ground or running away and keep my eye on them. Otherwise, I'm likely to end up hit from behind as I walk away, and it has happened, and I was most displeased my sense of personal honor got me hurt.

[fable]

[QUOTE=Denethorn]I find it very difficult to accept violence towards females. I've seen women abused to certain degrees and I find it downright disgusting. To that end I find it difficult to bestow any intentional physical harm upon a woman, even in the case of defense.[/QUOTE]

Next time you see a beaten and abused child, consider that its mother may have done that, and you may want to reevaluate your stance.

[Denethorn]

[QUOTE=Magrus]Meh, I've been in fights before. Subdoing someone without handing out bruises or drawing blood takes skill and talent. Anyhow, that is still defending yourself, if by a means that ends in less pain to your attacker than beating him/her senseless and unconscious. [/QUOTE]

In the particular context we're talking about I wouldn't know. My experiances in violence from women are drawn from particularly heated arguments with girlfriends. They have drawn blood from me before, but I found just grasping their hands or arms or doing the 'boxing hug' usually halts their rage and replaces it with a torrent of tears . Have to wonder which is worse sometimes.

@fable Then that mother needs professional help, and her child possibly taken from her, not a punch to the face?

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=fable]Next time you see a beaten and abused child, consider that its mother may have done that, and you may want to reevaluate your stance.[/QUOTE]

Yes indeed...
And this fact makes many feminists I've encountered very uncomfortable...often to the point of outright denial.

[DaemonJ]

[QUOTE=fable]Next time you see a beaten and abused child, consider that its mother may have done that, and you may want to reevaluate your stance.[/QUOTE]
I have seen this numerous times and even once is too many. Nobody (man or woman) should harm a child.

[Magrus]

[QUOTE=Darzog]I always loved my Hap Ki Do instructor's comment about having a fight. "If someone attacks you, once you've beaten them to the ground, give them a $20 bill and tell them to call a taxi; it will get there quicker than an ambulence. Always be gracious even in the face of your enemies."[/QUOTE]

I've actually heard that before myself. The karate teacher I had said this:

"Never, ever use what I teach you to deliberately harm someone unless all other options are exhausted. Defend yourself, but do not attack another person. Also, there are four steps in defending yourself:

1. Warn
2. Injure
3. Maim
4. Kill

If someone attempts to attack you, do your best to avoid or block the attack. Warn him you will cause him serious physical harm if he attacks again. If he does, show him you are serious, and cause him pain. If he backs down and leaves, let him go. If not, do your utmost to defend yourself, including breaking limbs. An opponent who cannot walk is unable to continue attacking you when you move away. If, under the instances you are attacked with deadly force outright, respond in kind. Seek to maim the person in an attempt to stun or slow him and then if that does not work in stopping him, do your utmost to kill him before he kills you."

My father was trained, unconventionally, by his best friends brother in Karate. He gave the same line to me, and I have used it. No one...and I repeat...no one has been struck by me without a warning. The people who ended up hospitalized from broken bones and other injuries were warned after first hitting me they would be in considerable pain for attempting to do so again, and I waited to see their reaction after that, and my first strike, before causing them such injuries.

@ Denethorn...If I saw a woman beating her kids...frankly, my reaction wouldn't be a passive one. My father beat me senseless numerous occasions, to the point I honestly have wondered whether I have brain damage from it. My reaction to that wouldn't differ at all from if it had been my mother. I distinctly recall chopping carrots at my fathers house the night my little half-sister ran up to me and said "daddy did this to me" and showed me the bruises on her face. The only reason he didn't end up a broken man was that her little brother confirmed my father and step-mothers story on what had happened. If it had been the other way around, and my mother, I honestly can say the gender switch wouldn't have mattered. Violent abuse is violent abuse, and to be honest I have hit people for abusing pets before, in their own homes.

[fable]

[QUOTE=Denethorn]@fable Then that mother needs professional help, and her child possibly taken from her, not a punch to the face?[/QUOTE]

I think your response shows your conditioning, in that you're not really responding to what this thread is about: defending oneself. Not simply punching somebody in the face, which usually isn't counted as defense. And why shouldn't a child be allowed to defend themselves against their mother, if that mother regularly beats them out of frustration? Is the child supposed to tell them to seek professional help? Do you think my mother would have stopped beating me when I was seven if I'd said such a thing--assuming I'd even been capable of knowing what to do--or simply renewed her attack more forcefully?

Is a beaten husband supposed to tell his wife to take therapy? I've read interviews with beaten husbands (who responded on guarantee of anonymity), in which they said they could never go to the authorities for fear of being laughed at, but could never defend themselves because you don't do that against women. What does that say about such attitudes towards women?

And this fact makes many feminists I've encountered very uncomfortable...often to the point of outright denial.

Feminists unite in this respect with arch-conservative elements of a culture that regards women as holy objects on a pedestal. (And what does that say of feminists?) Women simply can't act in this fashion, beating children. So the problem continues, and is endemic.

[Denethorn]

I think your response shows your conditioning, in that you're not really responding to what this thread is about: defending oneself.

I haven't neglected this point. I have raised the issue of what constitutes defense: to which I have said I would defend myself, but in a more passive manner than that which the other males in this thread have responded with. I can't really say I've encountered maternal child abuse first hand, or even in the media to a large extent, so I can't realistically provide a detailed response in this context.

And why shouldn't a child be allowed to defend themselves against their mother, if that mother regularly beats them out of frustration? Is the child supposed to tell them to seek professional help?

I think the case of a male child defending himself against an abusive mother or even in general an abusive female is arguably a different case. Furthermore, would physical defense on the child's part prove any more successful than telling said parent to go and receive therapy?

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=fable]Feminists unite in this respect with arch-conservative elements of a culture that regards women as holy objects on a pedestal. (And what does that say of feminists?) Women simply can't act in this fashion, beating children. So the problem continues, and is endemic.[/QUOTE]

I read quite an interesting book on this subject some years back called The New Victorians by Rene Denfield.
Denfield is actually an amateur boxer, and not an academic, but she makes a good argument. Her thesis essentially is that 90s feminists, imbued with a victim mentality and anti-male/anti-sex (heterosexual) stance are the "New Victorians." Within the book she discusses this odd alliance between arch conservatives and feminists.

As I said, it ain't an academic work, but she makes some good points, IMO.

I do think things have changed within feminism.. but certainly, when I was doing my BA in the late 80s/early 90s those attitudes were very much alive and well.