Minsc - Leanings towards Evil?

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:51 am

A post Luis made in the Benefits of Boo thread, and a subsequent PM conversation with him, has inspired me to begin this thread.

Luis suggests that Minsc has more of a leaning towards Evil and Chaotic. Chaotic I can certainly see, but I have a hard time viewing Minsc as evil in any shape or form. I have always found him to be sweet, mentally unsound/crazy and a bit dumb... but not evil.

Thoughts?

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:00 pm

Well, tis a nice thread. Reasons to think Minsc is evil:

He regects you if you have a low charisma, and he's really harsh doing this.

I dislike his battle shouts. Xan, and even Branwen seem better to me.

I used to overtime his quest because I wanted to pick up and sell every and all item to a merchant downtonw, and he would attack me often, for no XP at all.

I also dislike the way he jumps at Edwin when you try to get him to join your party if he's with you.

I feel like:

Minsc have been a great warrior once, one of pure good, a very nice Ranger. Then he had his accident, and he "fell": Became a lot more evil, and less cunning, making him a chaotic evil character because he cant actually stand on one side, just for the fact that he cant actually choose right. Her witch (Dinaheir, bleargh!) should deal with him so that he would follow the right path. But without a witch, in BG1, he seems nothing more than a bully to me.

In BG2 I agree completely that he's a huge do gooder, an excelent companion that means to risk himself for your safety.

Someone agree?

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:58 pm

Luis Antonio wrote:Well, tis a nice thread. Reasons to think Minsc is evil:

He regects you if you have a low charisma, and he's really harsh doing this.

Harsh rejection doesn't equate to evil. You want suave politeness, make friends with Bodhi.

I dislike his battle shouts. Xan, and even Branwen seem better to me.

Personal taste.

I used to overtime his quest because I wanted to pick up and sell every and all item to a merchant downtonw, and he would attack me often, for no XP at all.

That was back in Minsc's BG1 days, and his attack wasn't evil (hey, good creatures attack, too), but the ranger going out of his mind from grief and frustration--which in his case, is very easy to do.

I also dislike the way he jumps at Edwin when you try to get him to join your party if he's with you.

You mean, you wouldn't jump at the chance to throttle the smary little nit?

In BG2 I agree completely that he's a huge do gooder, an excelent companion that means to risk himself for your safety.

Yes, but this thread's in BG2/SoA. Did you and DW mean it to be over in the BG1 forum?

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:05 pm

[QUOTE=fable]Harsh rejection doesn't equate to evil. You want suave politeness, make friends with Bodhi.

[/QUOTE]

Oh, its not like the Bodhi kind of evil, Fable: its more like the not good as he's supposed to be as a Ranger. He has a tendency to Evil in the first BG1, IMO, he sounds far much more evil, and he is also a loose madman who can unleash his "posterior kicking" anytime. A psycho.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:08 pm

@Fable,
I'm not sure where this thread belongs, since we are discussing Minsc's character in relation to both games. Though.. I suppose that given sequence, it might make more sense to have it here. Your call though, obviously.

I'll try to include lots of BG2 content in my posts.

@Luis,
IMO, Minsc is not evil if he rejects you due to low charisma... Afterall he *is* chaotic good, so he's not comfortable in a more evil party. That just makes sense to me, really.
I don't know that Minsc's battle shouts can be described as evil. If you dislike Minsc, then annoying, yes, certainly. I don't think evil though

I mean, I find Nalia's "For the Needy!" immensely irritating, and I don't especially like Nalia's character, but I don't consider her evil.

And as Fable mentioned, concerning overclocking his quest.... He was sworn to protect his witch and he felt he had failed...which is again addressed in BG2 in relation to one of two possible NPCs. Again, not evil... just consumed by grief and worry.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:14 pm

[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]He has a tendency to Evil in the first BG1, IMO, he sounds far much more evil, and he is also a loose madman who can unleash his "posterior kicking" anytime. A psycho.[/QUOTE]

Do you mean in the sense that he carries out vigilante justice in the cause of good? I guess, that I could see, assuming we put it into an actual, real life, modern framework.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:17 pm

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Do you mean in the sense that he carries out vigilante justice in the cause of good? I guess, that I could see, assuming we put it into an actual, real life, modern framework.[/QUOTE]

Which as I understand the alignment system of (2.ed) D&D would just make him chaotic good instead of "evil"-ish. The chaotic is a huuuge way out of most such speculations

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:38 pm

Xandax wrote:Which as I understand the alignment system of (2.ed) D&D would just make him chaotic good instead of "evil"-ish. The chaotic is a huuuge way out of most such speculations

True. After all, we wouldn't call Minsc "evil" simply because he goes berserk in BG2 if a certain witch of his dies. So why should we call him evil if the failure to free his witch in BG1 drives him over the edge? Inability to solve a problem causes Minsc to lose control, and last I checked, losing control wasn't one of the symptoms of evil. It's just, welll, a good reason to work on some meditation exercises.

Oh, its not like the Bodhi kind of evil, Fable: its more like the not good as he's supposed to be as a Ranger. He has a tendency to Evil in the first BG1, IMO, he sounds far much more evil, and he is also a loose madman who can unleash his "posterior kicking" anytime. A psycho.

His posterior-kicking sounded more like a paladin, to me. And if a ranger must automatically be good, doesn't it follow that Minsc's attack on the evil Edwin fits this description? Why condemn him for fighting evil?

Just think of him as a very nice, rather massive kinda guy, who's under a great deal of pressure when you first meet him in BG1, and who's always a few molecules short of a polymer.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:15 pm

[QUOTE=Xandax]Which as I understand the alignment system of (2.ed) D&D would just make him chaotic good instead of "evil"-ish. The chaotic is a huuuge way out of most such speculations

[/QUOTE]

I always see chaotic as a twisted side, someone perverted. Good but perverted, you know.

@Fable: I dont quite understand what you mean by polymer, but my personal opinion is that he tends for evil more than any other character entitled good in the first Baldur's gate. And yes, I've got to agree that he was under pressure: But so was Edwin, who's evil, and he was not in the mood to simply kill Minsc (he was after the witch).

Also, Edwin is funny

In a twisted way, yes, but he is.

DaemonJ · Post by **DaemonJ** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:23 pm

According to the AD&D alignment descriptions Minsc cannot be evil.

All of the evil alignments require that the character only cares about themselves and their advancement regardless of how it affects others and killing them just means less competition.

Minsc has none of those qualities or tendencies. He is about fighting injustice, sticking up for the "little guy", and basically just taking care of anybody in need.

He could definitely qualify for Chaotic though.

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:24 pm

I agree with Fable. I see Minsc as Paladin-like goodness and think he would make an excellent Crusader. His species enemy is Vampires so he could make a great undead hunter. I personally see him as more Lawful Good than Chaotic Good as he is pretty strict in his goodness. Chaotic and crazy aren't really the same thing......

hey....couldn't a Greater Restoration spell cure Minsc's head wound? Just a thought....priests can resurrect the dead but cannot cure a head wound.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:03 am

Ah, this reminds me of my "Jaheira is a closet Paladin" thread of days long gone by.

Does Minsc lean towards evil? Certainly not. His war cry is due to addled wits; the result, perhaps, of falling on his head one too many times. He was very content in my Cavalier's party, and rather disgruntled in my more neutral-based party with the dual-classed fighter/thief I ran on my 6th or 7th time through the game. Minsc would rather bop "evil" over the head instead of thinking about it, being rather impulsive and brash. However, based on his behavior throughout my BG2 experiences, I would defintely say: Minsc evil, or tainted by leanings towards evil? No. He just needs bigger sword.

@Pellinore: You know, after thinking about what the game would be like without Minsc the way he is...well, it just wouldn't be the same . Like him or hate him, he's definitely a character.

Mr_Snow · Post by **Mr_Snow** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:16 am

You are all wrong, if Minsc is crazy (let's face it he does have those tendencies) and is singular in his obsession then he's more Neutral than good.

After all doing something cause you were told/meant to do so isn't really good now is it, he has no reason appart from his duty to be good, which really isn't good at all. No underlying empathy feelings and want to help other people, appart from maybe a dislike of evil, again that is not strictly good, rather than convenient.

I'd say he's more LN doing his duty above and beyong the call, rather than want to do it for it's own sake.

My 2c

DaemonJ · Post by **DaemonJ** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:03 pm

[QUOTE=Mr_Snow]he has no reason appart from his duty to be good, which really isn't good at all. No underlying empathy feelings and want to help other people, appart from maybe a dislike of evil[/QUOTE]
How can you say that based upon his reaction when the party meets the messenger boy from Trademeet and the messenger boy from the Umar Hills?

His reaction has nothing to do with duty but that he feels a wrong has occurred and needs to be corrected.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:15 pm

[QUOTE=DaemonJ]How can you say that based upon his reaction when the party meets the messenger boy from Trademeet and the messenger boy from the Umar Hills?

His reaction has nothing to do with duty but that he feels a wrong has occurred and needs to be corrected.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, he has a similar reaction when you rescue Viconia from the fanatics....despite her being 'evil' he practically begs for her to remain in the party. He sees the injustice that has been committed, and the big, addled oaf wants to protect her from further harm.

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:19 pm

Its just good for Viconia that Minsc isn't able to detect evil...

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:04 am

[QUOTE=Mr_Snow]You are all wrong, if Minsc is crazy (let's face it he does have those tendencies) and is singular in his obsession then he's more Neutral than good.

After all doing something cause you were told/meant to do so isn't really good now is it, he has no reason appart from his duty to be good, which really isn't good at all. No underlying empathy feelings and want to help other people, appart from maybe a dislike of evil, again that is not strictly good, rather than convenient.

I'd say he's more LN doing his duty above and beyong the call, rather than want to do it for it's own sake.

My 2c[/QUOTE]
I respectfully disagree. He knows right from wrong, and he always wants to do the right thing, and that in itself is the definition of goodness. His desire to protect the weak certainly shows that he has empathy, and the passion he shows in everything he does surely demonstrates that his actions come from the heart.

Of course, when I say that Minsc knows right from wrong, I only mean that he knows that there is good and there is evil. He sometimes gets confused when it comes to figuring out who is good and who is evil. (Sadly, it is easy to manipulate him because he trusts the main character.) His remarks in Umar Hills sum it up pretty well: "Wolves? Ogres? Witches? Oh my! It is too much for Minsc's poor head to comprehend! Which of these are evil? The edge of my sword shall find the truth!"