fable's Q&A on classical music

[C Elegans]

Interestingly, I share your view also on Bach. I can hear the Brandenburg concertos are masterpieces, but I never listen to them because they bore me.

On the other hand I love Chopin, although I know many of the nocturnes and etudes I love are equally focused at technique. When I was active as a pianist, I hated Chopin because I used his work so much for practising. Nowadays, I find some of works among the finest pieces ever written for piano. Rachmaninov on the other hand, I always liked although he made me struggle

[fable]

Definitely about the Brandenburgs! And so much of the harpsichord and organ music is so four-square and concerned with dotting each contrapuntal i that it bores me stiff. On the other hand, the Goldberg Variations are magnificent, and the Italian Concerto is fun--but then, he wrote that as a quasi-adaptation of Vivaldi, so it's not surprising.

We also share views on Chopin, too. For a long time he was considered old-fashioned by those who felt if you liked music in a more advanced style, you had to dislike music in earlier ones. But I've never bought into that, and the times have changed. Especially in Rachmaninoff's case, there seems to be a revival in progress. Freddie Kempf is particularly good in his recent recordings, and I'm just about to get a new CD of his second sonata for review. Can't remember the performer, though: some big hopeful that's signed a contract with EMI.

[fable]

Another PM was sent to me with a classical question. (There's no need to do that. Simply search for "classical" on a thread title in this forum, post your questions here, and I'll reply. Though if you send them to me, I will reply, too.) It was this:

"How do classical composers make money?"

And a very good question it is, too.

We have to remember that the term "classical music" covers a multitude of nations and styles of music over a period of roughly 900 years. So it's impossible to say "all composers survived in X way" for this entire period; it would cover too much ground. We can generalize, but we'll have to use several generalities to be relatively accurate.

Many composers during through the 1700s were associated in one way or another with the Roman Catholic Church, or (later) Protestant communities that required music for services. In some cases, the composers were priests, or even canons or abbots, such as Guillaume Dufay, one of the greatest composers of the First Netherlands School. (It wasn't a literal school. The term refers to a shared outlook.) Much later, Antonio Vivaldi was nicknamed "The Red Priest" because he had red hair--odd for an Italian--and was a priest. (A priest who maintained a long-standing affair with an opera soprano, no less.) There are also lesser known composers who achieved the rank of bishop.

In the early years, the 12th and 13th centuries, many secular composers were aristocrats who'd been involved in the Crusades, and after the initial culture shock of seeing an Islam that was in every artistic and scientific way superior, learned as much they could. They returned to Europe with new artistic forms, and became the first trouveres, troubadours, and minnesingers. They either made money from lands and people they owned, or acquired it as part of the court of higher aristocrats.

A third group formed in the Italian States in the 15th century, when it became an important status symbol to have a trained classical choir who could sing secular and sacred music, and who could compose, too. (It was not uncommon for ambassadors from one Italian city state to literally attempt to steal the services of choristers working for another.) Some of the foremost composers of the age were equally known at the time as singers, and commanded fabulous incomes.

After instrumental music achieved a parity with vocal, sometime in the 17th century, instrumental musicians started being employed at artistocratic and chapel courts (for the wealthier Catholic prelates kept their own courts) fvor good salaries. Others became famous as teachers and administrators in celebrated academies, such as Leonardo Leo. Patronage flourished.

The 19th century saw a major change in all this. National states had nearly wiped out the smaller city ones, and opportunities for court appointments waned in many areas. Composers were forced to compete for public attention and middleclass tastes, giving concerts, lessons, and selling music to publishers who weren't always very scrupulous. Some composers, like Beethoven, traded on their names to get back at publishers: Beethoven sold student works of his late in life, giving the impression they were recent works to command high fees. In some nations music was so in demand that composers always had a ready market, but were at the mercy of performers--as was the case with 19th century opera composers in Italy.

In the 20th century, composers adapted to different circumstances. The Soviet paid stipends to artists, but demanded one produced music to the current governmental line. The failure to do so was a loss of prestige, jobs, income, perks, such as Shostakovich twice discovered. The Scandinavian countries supported composers were lifelong stipends as well; they didn't attach political strings, but they also expected composers to come from certain backgrounds and possess certain qualifications. Some fine musicians were overlooked; many were enabled to create fine works without worrying about where the next meal came from.

In America, composers went into academia. Teaching was a safe haven, though it also meant classical music was largely separated from the culture for many years. More recently, composers have taken to writing film and television music, or commercial jingles, to earn money; but now that concerts are once again opening up to new classical music, more are returning to pedaling their new compositions to the public.

[frogus23]

*****in' Gypsy Shizznit

I am beginning to make a hesitant excursion into classical music, after recently getting into lots of gypsy music of various varieties, and listening to Bluebeard's Castle in the dark which probably changed my life.

So here's a (not really classical) question for you fable:

How 'gypsy' is Hungarian folk music? In Bartok, Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian etc. all seem to be taken as 'Romani music' - but Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies are written about as if they were Hungarian people's folk...

-Are the Roma in Hungary regarded as having a seperate folk music?
-What are the distinctive features of Hungarian folk music?

And can you recommend any?

[Moonbiter]

I just came back from an absolutely remarkable concert. A tripple bill with Schubert, Weber and Bruckner on the menu, played by the Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra. What made it special was that it was conducted by Gennadij Rozjdestvenskij, one of my absolute top-5 conductors alive today, and that Weber's "Concert Piece for Piano and Orchestra" was played by Viktoria Postnikova, also one of the greats from the "old guard."
The Bruckner piece, his much maligned 3rd Symphony, is something of a guilty pleasure for me. I've always had a soft spot for the ole' dog, despite all the snide accusations that he's nothing but "Wagner-lite."
What really gets to me is that of an 1000+ audience, me'n the wifey were probably the only ones under 50 years old except for two blind children. The majority of the audience seemed to be about 75 years old, which raises the question: when they are dead and gone, who's gonna go to see these things? Is it going to be me and my wife and a couple of friends and two blind kids with the whole hall to ourselves?

Anyway, it was a GREAT evening.

[C Elegans]

Good to hear, Moonbiter We who live in small insignificant countries are not too spoiled with great concerts of the quality you can hear every week in France, Italy, Russia or the US.

Rozjdestvenskij is one of my all time favorite conductors - he must be quite old now, though?

[quote="Frogus]
-Are the Roma in Hungary regarded as having a seperate folk music?
-What are the distinctive features of Hungarian folk music? [/quote"]

I don't know anything about Hungarian folk music except that it's similar to the Balkan folk music, but I do know the Romani music and culture are viewed as distinct in Hungary.
In large parts of Eastern Europe I know that the folk music has been heavily influenced by Romani music, is Russia to the extent so you can almost say they are synonymous.

[Moonbiter]

Rozjdestvenskij is one of my all time favorite conductors - he must be quite old now, though?

Hiya! Yes, he's old. He hasn't lost any of his touch, though. I always love it when a conductor manages to get the max out of an orchestra with a minimum ammount of movement and sheer presence. He conducts like an elderly D'Artagnan using his rapier: sparingly, but with force.:laugh: I swear he leaned over and almost put the stick up a violinist's nose to make a point during the Schubert piece.

Funny you should mention it: I was in Stockholm for 4 days a month ago, and compared to Oslo you are a world-class center of entertainment. I was going out of my skin trying to catch as much good culture stuff as possible while I was there.

[fable]

The majority of the audience seemed to be about 75 years old, which raises the question: when they are dead and gone, who's gonna go to see these things? Is it going to be me and my wife and a couple of friends and two blind kids with the whole hall to ourselves?

Anyway, it was a GREAT evening.

It does sound as though you enjoyed yourselves. As for the audience: I don't know the venue, series, or even the nation you attended the concert in, but orchestral concerts are drawing record crowds in general, these days. It's been said that this has to do with the collapse of he hegemony by the twelve-toners who ruled university music departments, determined what music got published and performed, during much of the 20th century. The big break occurred when Rochberg rediscovered traditional tonal music and had sufficient clout to get it performed in orchestral concerts--to rapturous applause. Suddenly, even diehard twelve-toners like Lukas Foss, Lutoslawski and Penderecki were willing to set aside all their dogmatism and write for the appreciative audiences, too.

How 'gypsy' is Hungarian folk music? In Bartok, Hungarian, Romanian, Bulgarian etc. all seem to be taken as 'Romani music' - but Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies are written about as if they were Hungarian people's folk...

-Are the Roma in Hungary regarded as having a seperate folk music?
-What are the distinctive features of Hungarian folk music?

And can you recommend any?

This is a year-old question, but let's see: gypsy music isn't Hungarian folk music, and Hungarian are very, very clear about that. It's a political/cultural thing. Back 100 years ago, the conservative landowners and Hungarian aristocracy liked the gypsy bands, which they insisted were authentic Hungarian folk music--because the Hungarian peasants were treated like slave labor, completely unenfranchised, and ignored by these groups. By contrast, the urban intelligentsia, Jewish and German sub-cultural groups, and more socially advanced upper middle class started promoting in literature and (with the advent of Bartok and Kodaly) in music genuine Hungarian folk culture. It was considered revolutionary, and many venues were closed to the latter. Even today, that same sense of gypsy music as the favored music of the wealthy aristocracy lingers in some quarters.

That's not to say Hungarian kids don't appreciate modern gypsy music (as opposed to the commecial schmalz that imitates gypsy music of the mid 19th century). Gypsy music is frequently performed in dance venues, but the same is true these days of non-gypsy Hungarian music.

Distinctive features? I'm not at home to check my books. But offhand, Hungarian folk music tends to make extensive use of string instruments, harmonically static bass lines in 4/4, and anapestic rhythms with a heavy stress on the first syllable in the melody. If you hear a clarinet, then they've been influenced by gypsies. Cimbaloms, though, appear in both Hungarian and gypsy cultures in the area; likely, the gypsies got that from the Hungarians, since it doesn't appear among gypsy bands in surrounding nations. The recorder also shows up in Hungarian folk music, but not as much; and simple, non-melodic drums may show up, as well. For bands, Muzikas, Tekla, Tukros, and Meta (in some of their earlier albums) are some of the more traditional Hungarian folk groups to come along that combine knowledge of rural roots with urban settings. Muzikas is the most popular folk band in Hungary. By chance, we got to see them live four years ago, in Kesckemet. Not only was the place packed, but the stairs were covered with seated kids--it was a fire hazard. There was more energy on that stage, especially with the dancers present, than I've ever witnessed from the Stones or other rock groups, legendary or current. And the audience went wild.

[fable]

[QUOTE=C Elegans]In large parts of Eastern Europe I know that the folk music has been heavily influenced by Romani music, is Russia to the extent so you can almost say they are synonymous.[/QUOTE]

Don't say that to a Russian. The two cultures and their music are very different, and gypsies there (as elsewhere) are viewed as lower class outsiders. Russian folk music can be musically shown to derive some of its modal elements from Byzantine church modes (which in turn come from Arabic, pre-Islamic modes), while Russian gypsy music is non-modal. The former is homophonic; the latter is monodic. the latter also shows much in common with gypsy music from neighboring cultures, but Russian folk music is only similar to the folk music of the Ukraine and Byelo-Russ.

However, gypsy music in Russia, like gypsy music in Hungary, has sometimes been foisted on the outside world as the authentic thing. Dark Eyes and Two Guitars, two of the most popular Russian gypsy tunes, are often treated as though hey were Russian folk music. I suspect this is because gypsy music often does such a good job of mimicing the culture it resides in--much like Jewish sacred and secular music, which is very different for Sephardic Jews (Jews in Western Europe), and Ashkenazi Jews (Jews from Eastern Europe), and different again for Jews in France and Jews in the UK (Spanish descendants). And to confuse matters more, the Klezmer bands that are so popular in some quarters these days, with their manic and depressive Jewish "folk music," is actually heavily derived from Balkan folk music (Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc), while the Klezmer clarinet comes--from the gypsies. Probably because lower class outsider cultures sometimes tend to make common cause when faced with a larger enemy.

[Moonbiter]

LOL! Thank you, Fable. I was mining for this thread, and I just KNEW that I would learn something. Funny that: I have an education in music, but I never got the small and significant points that I get from my mom's family (Balkan, and all musicians) or learn from sources like you. Thanks.

[Rookierookie]

Not exactly on topic, but somewhat relevant, so I thought I'd ask it here.

I'm currently on a Yamaha U2 upright piano, and my teacher has advised me to switch to a better one. My mom has agreed to it as soon as my education route is decided, and I want to know which models might be good.

Grands are totally out of the question.

[C Elegans]

Hiya! Yes, he's old. He hasn't lost any of his touch, though. I always love it when a conductor manages to get the max out of an orchestra with a minimum ammount of movement and sheer presence.

I am sure he hasn't lost his touch when it comes to conduncting, but I do believe the "minimum amount of movement" may be age related - I used to see him perform often in Moscow during the 1990's, and then he usually jumped up and down boxing the air with his fists

Funny you should mention it: I was in Stockholm for 4 days a month ago, and compared to Oslo you are a world-class center of entertainment. I was going out of my skin trying to catch as much good culture stuff as possible while I was there.

Gee, you must tell me what culture you managed to find, and I will immediately go and look for it! Oslo is smaller, I agree, but in my opinion, the quality of "culture" in Sweden reflects the anti-intellectual peasant society that Sweden has never left.

Unless you enjoy the extremly pretentious, esotheric, self-mirroring form of art that is

I know
The Romani culture has been Europe's most discriminated ethnic group for many centuries, and still is. Although the discrimination against Jewish people has attracted far more attention, the discrimination against Romani people has been even more severe in my opinion.

However, gypsy music in Russia, like gypsy music in Hungary, has sometimes been foisted on the outside world as the authentic thing. Dark Eyes and Two Guitars, two of the most popular Russian gypsy tunes, are often treated as though hey were Russian folk music.

Perhaps that is the reason my impression that Romani and Russian folk music are more strongly intertwined and integrated than Romani and Hungarian folk music. Btw, according to my colleagues (I have several people at my lab from both Hungary and Russia), the Romani are more "outside" of society in Hungary than in Russia, and more looked down at by the rest of the population in the respective countries. (This is their general opinion though, they are all neuroscientists, not social anthropologists, so it's not necessarily correct.)

In Sweden, most Romani people originally came from Russia, but their musical tradition has not influenced Swedish folk music to any extent. A pity, since Swedish folk music, which few exceptions, is a real sleeping-pill.

[Moonbiter]

Last night the German TV channel 3Sat showed Jaques Offenbach's "Tales of Hoffmann" from the 2003 Saltzburg Music Festival, and it was absolutely fantastic! The cast was stellar, and it featured both the Wiener Staatsopernchor and the Wiener Philharmoniker, so it was everything I could wish for. I haven't heard ToH in ages, so it was the perfect compliment to a stormy night with a nice fire going, some good friends and a great meal. Oh, and numerous bottles of tasteful grape... One thing that blew us all away was the great acting abilities of most of the cast, and you could watch the performance as a full multimedia experience without being bored for a second. Even the couple who aren't really into classical music was won over.

[fable]

Last night the German TV channel 3Sat showed Jaques Offenbach's "Tales of Hoffmann" from the 2003 Saltzburg Music Festival, and it was absolutely fantastic! The cast was stellar, and it featured both the Wiener Staatsopernchor and the Wiener Philharmoniker, so it was everything I could wish for. I haven't heard ToH in ages, so it was the perfect compliment to a stormy night with a nice fire going, some good friends and a great meal. Oh, and numerous bottles of tasteful grape... One thing that blew us all away was the great acting abilities of most of the cast, and you could watch the performance as a full multimedia experience without being bored for a second. Even the couple who aren't really into classical music was won over.

Yes, ToH is a fun opera when it's done well, the kind of thing that really works even for non-opera goers. The fact that it involves a fantasy setting doesn't it either nowadays, and there are literally hundreds of operas out there that could easily be revived suited to modern tastes. We can only hope that the days of endless neo-realism are over, and that opera can once again become sheer fun on stage, on a regular basis.

By the way, there's an old (circa 1940) version of Tales of Hoffmann made in the UK by the Archers (Powell and Pressburger) that's really great, though somewhat cut and edited. It's available on DVD. There are also fantastic (if cut) versions of Boris Godunov and Khovanshchina on video from the 1956 and 1960, directed by the little known Vera Stroyeva (she's great), and with excellent casts. Definitely worth seeing.

[Moonbiter]

We can only hope that the days of endless neo-realism are over, and that opera can once again become sheer fun on stage, on a regular basis.

Amen to that! neo-realism and modern artsy-fartsy mauling of old masterpieces put me off both ballet and opera for ages. It was force fed us during my high school and uni days, to the point where we just tuned out completely. The Powell & Pressburger "movie version" that I have is from 1951, and was the first version I ever saw on the telly as a kid. Maybe a later cut than yours? I pestered my mom into getting the sheet music for the "Barcarolle" so I could learn it on the piano, and still managed to play it for my guests on Saturday, 33 years later.

[fable]

Amen to that! neo-realism and modern artsy-fartsy mauling of old masterpieces put me off both ballet and opera for ages. It was force fed us during my high school and uni days, to the point where we just tuned out completely. The Powell & Pressburger "movie version" that I have is from 1951, and was the first version I ever saw on the telly as a kid. Maybe a later cut than yours? I pestered my mom into getting the sheet music for the "Barcarolle" so I could learn it on the piano, and still managed to play it for my guests on Saturday, 33 years later.

I suspect your date is correct on the Archers' filming, not mine. Unfortunately, at the moment we either have uninspired pseudo-realism, or uninspired shock theater. Neither shows any knowledge of the works involved, or any respect for the person who wants to see an opera or ballet. I've also seen some very scathing remarks on this state of affairs from opera singers, but they have no power over the production unless commanding the clout of the donors, like Domingo. Some good things do get done, however, and there are some great ones being committed (among a lot else) on DVD.

[Lady Dragonfly]

@ C Elegans and Fable

I was reading through this undying thread and stumbled upon a list of composers that CE was making for a friend of his three (!) years ago, including a list of the Russian composers.
Since you guys stated that you know and love Russian classical music I was surprised that while you mentioned the Mighty Handful, you forgot M. Glinka who was, by the way, called THE FATHER OF RUSSIAN MUSIC. :speech:

[fable]

@ C Elegans and Fable

I was reading through this undying thread and stumbled upon a list of composers that CE was making for a friend of his three (!) years ago,

Her friend. Definitely female, our CE. No blame attaches, as it's hard to tell that kind of thing here, but if you read some of the backthreads she'll mention it repeatedly. The incidents dressing up as a bimbo and putting down stereotyping guys at dance clubs sounds like they should have been caught on film.

...including a list of the Russian composers.
Since you guys stated that you know and love Russian classical music I was surprised that while you mentioned the Mighty Handful, you forgot M. Glinka who was, by the way, called THE FATHER OF RUSSIAN MUSIC. :speech:

No one forgot Glinka; in fact, he's my handle on another forum. It's just that we were discussing the Mighty Handful, and Glinka was an influence on them, rather them one of the group. I wrote a 2500+ word review of his Ruslan and Ludmilla several years ago, and I have 5 different versions of the opera--so I'm familiar with some of his work.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him the "father of Russian music," though. It sounds nice, and he did have great influence through his two operas on the succeeding generation, but he was preceded by others who employed Russian liturgical and folk materials, as well. Bortniansky's so-called sacred concertos, in particular, are as Russian as one could wish, and his opera, The Falcon, while very much in the French mode that was popular at the time, nonetheless moves into Russian folk territory for a couple of numbers.

That said, I think A Life for the Tsar and especially R&L exploded like bombs in the consciousness of the incipient nationalists. It can be said that without Glinka, Russian nationalist music would have been very different, indeed, and probably nowhere near as interesting.

[Malicia]

Fable:

I don't know much (if anything) about classical music but I like horror movies so:

Considering Orff: Is he known for anything else except Carmina.. and it's position as theme music for Omen? Is Omen his 15 minutes of fame?

[fable]

Fable:

I don't know much (if anything) about classical music but I like horror movies so:

Considering Orff: Is he known for anything else except Carmina.. and it's position as theme music for Omen? Is Omen his 15 minutes of fame?

No, Carmina Burana is his 45 minutes or so of fame. It was big long before Omen. Personally, I find it a boring work, where cliched themes that in no way reflect most of the lyrics being spoken are sung. It's more like a compendium of bad characteristics in late 19th century opera than anything else, in my opinion. But it's broad melodies have made it extremely popular, and it shows up everywhere. I suspect, too, that the hegemony of serial academics, who pretty much ruled what was taught, played and recorded for much of the 20th century, made Orff seem that much more vibrant. There was nothing else to compare him to, and he must have seemed like a vote for traditional music in an otherwise empty field.

(Which is not meant as a criticism of 12-twelve-music or its descendants, but of those zealots who wanted it to be all that was taught and heard, and labored ceaselessly towards this goal.)

Orff was an otherwise competent and uninteresting composer, with a large following in Germany and Austria. I have several of his operas, which were better than Carmina Burana, but not really imaginative in any respect.