Battle of the Canes...

[fable]

Mmm, I wonder when was the last time you went to a bar or a pub. Fights happen pretty often there. (At least they used to, I have not been to that kind of places for about 3 years.) I also wonder if you ever played in an amateur and supposedly friendly hockey league and had someone break his stick on your head while you had your back turned. (The latter happened to me.)

I would accept anecdotal evidence that there are some men who hang around in violent bars and engaging in fights. That in no way shows But since many men love to show how strong they are..." Had you stated, "there are a few men who love to show how strong they are," I would have agreed. But most men don't seek out these bars, or engage in road rage, or attack others. Just as most women don't beat up other women to buy dresses that are on sale, or to get toys for their kids, or beat up their husbands (though one report estimated that 25% of domestic violence is female-on-male; it just goes unreported). Though these things do happen.

Once again I fail to see your goal, Fable. Disapproving men's violence against women is not an ill or an original thought.

What I find curious is your comment, "In an other reply I talked about manner and respect. I believe men should respect women no matter what they look like or how strong they are." Had you stated that all those who are strong avoid using their strength against those physically weaker than themselves, with very few exceptions, I would have agreed. But instead of singling out all those weaker, you've only emphasized women. And instead of refraining from violence, you substitute respect. Which I've always been taught is a quality earned by one's actions, and which I've come to feel is an innate right (until dispelled by "bad actions") owed to the entire human race. In either case, it seems that respect is due as matter of fact only to women, or am I reading that wrong?

I hope I've cleared up what I find interesting in your sentence, and why. I'm not condemning you for it, but I want to understand people better, especially when they present ideas I don't hold or comprehend. No offense is meant, in any case.

Fable,
some men simply are respectful in this way toward women, I've encountered it myself.

But DW, it's like driving on the left side of the road--or the right; or like shaking your head up and down for yes--or for no. It's not the way anybody simply is. It's either a conclusion they've arrived at based on life experience, or it's implicit in their culture, or it's something they've been taught and have never challenged. Nurture, not nature--to return to that old discussion, up here.

[Gilliatt]

I would accept anecdotal evidence that there are some men who hang around in violent bars and engaging in fights. That in no way shows But since many men love to show how strong they are..." Had you stated, "there are a few men who love to show how strong they are," I would have agreed. But most men don't seek out these bars, or engage in road rage, or attack others. Just as most women don't beat up other women to buy dresses that are on sale, or to get toys for their kids, or beat up their husbands (though one report estimated that 25% of domestic violence is female-on-male; it just goes unreported). Though these things do happen.

I am glad you cleared up a few things. This one is very simple to settle. When I mentioned many, I was not taking about a percentage or a majority, but about a big number. I never ever meant to say most men want to show how strong they are, or that most men are violent. I had a cousin who was a bouncer in a topless bar, and I can assure you there were lots of fights there. The percentage of violent men in the bar could have been less than 1 %, that was still lots of fights and over a year, many people fighting.

What I find curious is your comment, "In an other reply I talked about manner and respect. I believe men should respect women no matter what they look like or how strong they are." Had you stated that all those who are strong avoid using their strength against those physically weaker than themselves, with very few exceptions, I would have agreed. But instead of singling out all those weaker, you've only emphasized women. And instead of refraining from violence, you substitute respect. Which I've always been taught is a quality earned by one's actions, and which I've come to feel is an innate right (until dispelled by "bad actions") owed to the entire human race. In either case, it seems that respect is due as matter of fact only to women, or am I reading that wrong?

I'll start by saying that I am the kind of person who thinks respect is something you loose and not something you earn. Otherwise, anyone could lack respect for anybody they don't know since they have not earned their respect yet. Since I already said in another post that I also open doors for men, and that I disapprove when someone say all men are evil, I don't think I need to clarify that it is not only women who deserves respect. You asked me questions about something specific (why I think a men should not hit a women) so I did not saw the need to elaborate further on behaviours men have toward each other. I also said that most of the time men are bigger and stronger than women and that it was one of the main reasons. (You seemed to have forgotten or skipped that part.) Yes, I did generalize, but we all do to a certain degree. Can you name one sociologist that includes every single person of the planet into his analysis? I don't see the point of mentioning in every post that there are exceptions to what I say, because it is so obvious that there are. For exemple, saying that people in France speak French is not a lie, even if some of them speak another language.

I hope I've cleared up what I find interesting in your sentence, and why. I'm not condemning you for it, but I want to understand people better, especially when they present ideas I don't hold or comprehend. No offense is meant, in any case.

What was starting to bug me was not that you were not necessarily agreeing with me, it was that you were not discussing with me, but simply asking questions. I was feeling like I was being psychanalysed and this in not interesting for anyone on this board. That is why I insisted on receiving clarifications and on having you take part of the discussion. I see this place as a discussion board, not as a place to preach my opinions.

But DW, it's like driving on the left side of the road--or the right; or like shaking your head up and down for yes--or for no. It's not the way anybody simply is. It's either a conclusion they've arrived at based on life experience, or it's implicit in their culture, or it's something they've been taught and have never challenged. Nurture, not nature--to return to that old discussion, up here.

Of course, that is what I have been taught since I was young. But agreeing on something that was taught to you does not necessarily means you do it blindfully.

[fable]

I'll start by saying that I am the kind of person who thinks respect is something you loose and not something you earn. Otherwise, anyone could lack respect for anybody they don't know since they have not earned their respect yet.

We're in agreement on this.

Since I already said in another post that I also open doors for men, and that I disapprove when someone say all men are evil, I don't think I need to clarify that it is not only women who deserves respect.

I don't recall having read that. Since I've been here 6 years, used to post a lot in SYM, and still had people forgetting positions I'd taken repeatedly, you might want to make such things clearer in the future.

You asked me questions about something specific (why I think a men should not hit a women) so I did not saw the need to elaborate further on behaviours men have toward each other. I also said that most of the time men are bigger and stronger than women and that it was one of the main reasons. (You seemed to have forgotten or skipped that part.)

Not at all; I've repeatedly stated that I could use anecdotal evidence to show women are just as capable of taking care of themselves as men. In some urban areas of the US, I'd go so far as to say women are more capable of this, since there are now numerous fitness centers that only allow women, offering defense classes.

Yes, I did generalize, but we all do to a certain degree. Can you name one sociologist that includes every single person of the planet into his analysis? I don't see the point of mentioning in every post that there are exceptions to what I say, because it is so obvious that there are. For exemple, saying that people in France speak French is not a lie, even if some of them speak another language.

I perceived you as stating that only women deserve immediate respect. When a sweeping generalization is made and repeated in that fashion, can you see why I want to find out more details about it? Now that you've cleared the matter up by pointing out you apply this standard to everybody, not just women, I've no more questions to ask. Sadly.

What was starting to bug me was not that you were not necessarily agreeing with me, it was that you were not discussing with me, but simply asking questions. I was feeling like I was being psychanalysed and this in not interesting for anyone on this board. That is why I insisted on receiving clarifications and on having you take part of the discussion. I see this place as a discussion board, not as a place to preach my opinions.

Oh, I never had any intentions of psychoanalyzing you. The one who can and will defiinitely do that when she's around is CE. (Who is, after all, a neurobiologist with a degree in psychology. Lucky for you, she's very busy working and very pregnant.) I'm just intensely interested in people's culturally informed, personal opinions on a range of issues. And when we were writing at cross-purposes, I was just being patient. I find that preferrable to the usual accusatory stance taking and screaming that passes that for conversation on web boards. This way, I got to know what you think. I also know that you have some very interesting acquaintances in a variety of circles. Thanks for clearing all that up!

[Silur]

Anyone stating that they would never strike a woman have just not been attacked with sufficient force by one. Personally I wouldn't strike anyone at all, except maybe as a last resort in self defence, in which case I'd have no qualms with striking women, kids, people with glasses, elderly or whatever other group the assailant may be part of.

Here in the selfproclaimed "equality between the sexes" capitol of the world, teenage girls have picked up the formerly "boys only" hobby of beating up elderly and stealing their pension, physically harrassing their classmates (regardless of gender) and similar, generally considered male, violent behaviour. That's progress, isn't it? Women are still far away from earning equal wage though...

[fable]

Here in the selfproclaimed "equality between the sexes" capitol of the world, teenage girls have picked up the formerly "boys only" hobby of beating up elderly and stealing their pension, physically harrassing their classmates (regardless of gender) and similar, generally considered male, violent behaviour. That's progress, isn't it? Women are still far away from earning equal wage though...

But as you say, that's progress. Now if you can only get forced sex by a woman recognized under the law as rape (which it definitely is), you'll be onto something.

[Dottie]

I have never been able to understand why some people think the morality of use of violence is dependant on the target's capacity to defend itself. I can imagine two reasons for using violence. Either you do it in a self-defence situation, or you do is as a form of punishment. In both these cases the power of the target seems completely irrelevant to me. Are you more deserving of punishment if you are strong? or does it become immoral to defend yourself if your attacker is weaker than you? The thought seems absurd.

@Fable: I believe it is recognized as rape under law, but, if memory serves, molested men have big difficulties to get a fair treatment from legal authorities regardless of this, due to prejudices of police, judges etc.

[Gilliatt]

@ Fable, thanks to you too for clearing it up also. Actually much of it was based on misunderstanding or lack of clarification, rather than on disagreement. BTW, when I said I did not need to explain further that I also respect men because I had said it in other posts, I was not condemning you for not knowing it. If that had been the case, it would have been extremely stupid on my part because there are too many posts here for us to know them all. I was just using that as examples and what I meant was that these examples were enough to justify myself. To clear up one last point, I know perfectly well that some women are more than able to defend themselves, I just don't see it as a good reason to use violence against them.

@ Silur, I completely agree with you. As I said, I would surely hit a woman or an elderly if they put my life or my health in danger.

@ Dootie, I truly understand your point. I condemn violence, but I think there are different degrees of violence. I am much more offended when I see people fighting with weapons than when I see them do it bare hands. Just like I am less offended when I see persons of similar strength fighting than when I see people who show their "courage" only when there is no challenge.

[Chimaera182]

Hmm, interesting. I guess I would hope that a 52 year old with only a foot injury would be a bit more considerate of a 76 year old with more severe physical limitations regardless of gender. Apparently expecting some people to behave maturely is another matter entirely...

How would he know about her physical limitations? It's not as though she would be wearing a button that says "I Have an Artificial Hip: Ask Me How" on her sweater. Or a jacket decorated with rhinestones that spell out "Blind in One Eye."

Fable,
some men simply are respectful in this way toward women, I've encountered it myself. While my latent feminism sometimes twitches at it, it truly isn't all that big a deal to me.
It's kind of like guys who open doors for women or pull out chairs.. Some women really object. I don't, and I actually feel sort of sorry for guys in that regard, because some women will become offended if a guy acts in this sort of a way while others expect it. It must be tough to know which approach to adopt at times.

I was classically conditioned to be respectful to women, but due to the pressures of a P.C. culture (and the contrary but far more important lesson of treating everyone the same), I try to suppress it. I won't pull a chair out for a person, and I won't *open* doors except if I'm with friends/family and doing it for them (or if someone clearly has their hands full). But I often do hold doors open for people once I've walked through them, regardless of gender. If someone is only a few steps behind me, it's just downright rude not to. But I always have this feeling running in the back of my mind that some out-and-out feminist (whom I have yet to encounter, thankfully) is going to give me grief over holding the door open for a woman. Things will likely not end well, and we'll probably wind up walking away from the encounter thinking nasty things about each other, but since I know I would have treated a guy the same way, I know I'll be walking away the winner. Odd concept, coming out of that weirdness a winner, but whatever.

The one behavior that is deeply ingrained in my system and will never likely to be rid of concerns hitting girls. In person I tend to be very docile and non-violent (less suspicion comes your way if), so I'm not exactly keen on hitting anyone period. But I know I don't like the idea of hitting a girl. Of course, if she strikes me first and clearly did it to inflict pain, that is another story entirely.

Since I already said in another post that I also open doors for men, and that I disapprove when someone say all men are evil, I don't think I need to clarify that it is not only women who deserves respect.

I don't recall having read that. Since I've been here 6 years, used to post a lot in SYM, and still had people forgetting positions I'd taken repeatedly, you might want to make such things clearer in the future.

He said it in this thread, actually, at least the bit about opening doors for men.

[fable]

He said it in this thread, actually, at least the bit about opening doors for men.

You're right, and I missed that.

[kathycf]

How would he know about her physical limitations? It's not as though she would be wearing a button that says "I Have an Artificial Hip: Ask Me How" on her sweater. Or a jacket decorated with rhinestones that spell out "Blind in One Eye."

I guess that reflects bias on my part. When I see an elderly person (can we agree that a 76 year old is elderly?) walking with a cane, then my bias leads me to assume that their physical condition could quite possibly be considered fragile. Unless I am missing a trend amongst seniors that canes are the new "cool" accessory to tool around town with, and they don't rely on the cane to provide support and aid.

Neither party behaved well in this incident...