Massacre in Virginia: 33 students dead

[Lady Dragonfly]

It happened today...


BLACKSBURG, Va. - Thirty-three people, including the gunman, were killed on a Virginia university campus Monday in the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history. At least 26 other people were injured, some of them as they leapt to safety from the windows of a classroom building.


Federal law enforcement officials said the gunman killed himself after he shot dozens of people at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, in southwest Virginia. Thirty-two people were confirmed dead, as was the gunman.

At least 33 dead in Virginia rampage - Massacre: Virginia Tech - MSNBC.com

[Cuchulain82]

It's a scary situation, and something that has been on my mind all day. I'm a student now, and my classmates and I talked about it a little bit and tried to figure out how we felt. What would you do if someone walked into your classroom or office and started killing your colleagues? It's an awful thought, and it makes me feel very vulnerable.

[Aegis]

The cops there will be feeling the heat on this one for bit, as well. From what I understand, the initial shootings in a Coed Dorm were dismissed as domestic disturbances, with the shooter having fled. Considering that they allowed, through negligence, the gunman to relocate, and continue shooting, is going to cause a massive uproar.

Personally, I feel the officer who made the decision should lose his job for that screw up.

[TheAmazingOopah]

Yeah, really a terrible massacre this is, disgusting even. The thing that shocked me at first were of course the numbers: 33 people. 33 people. I always regarded people who do this as outcasts who are just severily pissed about their lives, who just really dislike the leading youth culture of barbies, sport jocks and Lindsay Lohan. Guys who go on a killing spree out of blind anger, and who very soon regret their actions when they see all the misery and death, resulting in their own suicide - again, being emotional. But in this case, the shooter actually came back two hours later to continue his killing spree. He kept shooting for about half an hour, and from what I've heard, it didn't end because he felt regret, but it ended only because the police stopped him. That doesn't sound like an emotinal act to me, that sounds like someone who has actually gone mental.

The second thing that hit me was the fear that these students must have felt. Teachers jumping out of windows, people screaming in pain and fear, and the repeating horrible sound of gunshots - that all for half an hour. I can only imagine the terrible cummulative fear those students most have felt that died at the end of that half hour.

Edit: Correction, the shooter didn't got shot by the police, but did commit suicide. I missed that part, my mistake, sorry.

[Moonbiter]

Just why do these things keep happening in the USA? Is it something in the water? Fable pointed out in the "Misconceptions" thread that Americans are not a violent people, yet solid proof is against that statement. The amount of people murdered in the US during the first three months of the year 2007 is staggering! I lived there for four years and the sick, gun-fixated, paranoid culture I encountered completely blew my mind. Don't hand me any arguments about different States and culture, that just won't wash with me. Right now I'm sitting here waiting for feedback from an old friend who's a professor at Virginia Tech. Her first message when moving there in 2001 was: "Jeeez, these people have shotguns in their hatstands!"

[dragon wench]

Just why do these things keep happening in the USA? Is it something in the water? Fable pointed out in the "Misconceptions" thread that Americans are not a violent people, yet solid proof is against that statement. The amount of people murdered in the US during the first three months of the year 2007 is staggering! I lived there for four years and the sick, gun-fixated, paranoid culture I encountered completely blew my mind. Don't hand me any arguments about different States and culture, that just won't wash with me. Right now I'm sitting here waiting for feedback from an old friend who's a professor at Virginia Tech. Her first message when moving there in 2001 was: "Jeeez, these people have shotguns in their hatstands!"

My SO and I were just discussing this last night.
To put things into context, we go down to the US quite a lot and we like many aspects of the country. As a whole it is more dynamic than Canada, there is often a much greater sense of energy and vitality.
So... just to make clear I am not bashing the US here.

But what we really do not understand at all is the American obsession with the right to bear arms. In its day, when it was passed, The Second Amendment served an obvious purpose. However, that was in the past. There is absolutely no need in this age for such a "right."

The US is one of the most violent nations in the world, if not the most violent. Somehow, it seems to elude people that there exists a direct correlation between easy gun purchase and extreme violence of this nature. And this in the face of the fact that the "deterrent" of the death penalty is alive and well in many states.

I'm not attempting to sound self-righteous. This is a common problem with Canadians, in my view. They love to get on their pedestals and point a sanctimonious finger down at the US.
It's simply that I find the prevailing mentality utterly baffling.

[Chanak]

*edited*

Some things are just not worth responding to.

[Moonbiter]

My SO and I were just discussing this last night.
To put things into context, we go down to the US quite a lot and we like many aspects of the country. As a whole it is more dynamic than Canada, there is often a much greater sense of energy and vitality.
So... just to make clear I am not bashing the US here.

But what we really do not understand at all is the American obsession with the right to bear arms. In its day, when it was passed, The Second Amendment served an obvious purpose. However, that was in the past. There is absolutely no need in this age for such a "right."

The US is one of the most violent nations in the world, if not the most violent. Somehow, it seems to elude people that there exists a direct correlation between easy gun purchase and extreme violence of this nature. And this in the face of the fact that the "deterrent" of the death penalty is alive and well in many states.

I'm not attempting to sound self-righteous. This is a common problem with Canadians, in my view. They love to get on their pedestals and point a sanctimonious finger down at the US.
It's simply that I find the prevailing mentality utterly baffling.

Norway is only second to Texas in the number of guns per capita, yet we don't go ballistic like this. In my four decades on this planet, this thing has only happened twice in Europe, but in the US it seems like an annual occurence and a national passtime. Why? This has NOT got anything to do with the availability of firearms, as is proven by my statement above, this is the general mentality of an entire population.

[fable]

Moonbiter, I can understand your emotional reaction to what has happened, but your comments here are way over the line, and defame an entire nation of over 300 million people with a single exceptionally broad and nasty brush. I suggest calming down when you can, but for now, back off. Nothing is gained from these rabid accusations.

[Moonbiter]

Point taken. I will now back off, and apologies is sent to the people involved.

[k2jaggededge]

Here we go again blaming guns/video games are the real colpruts!

Its the same with the Imus situation, theirs allways a smoke screen to cover up the real problem. Politicians are just PIMPS, they exploit situations for votes this will end up in the same bag. They'll morne then they'll blame guns to get a couple of votes. Was Grand Theift Auto the reason why 2 kids shot other classmates at columbine?
How about the obivious that this guy was a nut case don't make this political, its a sad story but whats even worse is that politicans will exploit it for votes.

Also he was an immigrent so he had no right to bear arms since he wasn't a citizen yet.

Finally if we can't even stop PEOPLE from coming into this country illeaglly (Hell we can't even deport convicted fellons since we can't find them most the time)
How are we going to stop the import of guns from South America, The Middle East, and Europe

[Chanak]

But what we really do not understand at all is the American obsession with the right to bear arms. In its day, when it was passed, The Second Amendment served an obvious purpose. However, that was in the past. There is absolutely no need in this age for such a "right."

To start, I'll comment that I don't own any firearms myself.

With that out of the way...the "obsession" to you is a "right" to another. Since you don't hail from a culture/society where bearing arms is a prominent feature of a citizen's rights, naturally you will have difficulty understanding it.

I don't think this sort of discussion has any place in this thread. Still, I feel compelled to respond to what you've posted here because it paints a picture with a broad brush that quite frankly distorts the entire thing based upon your own view of what's important to a society, casting aside other considerations such as the millions of Americans who own firearms that do not commit crimes, and are generally law-abiding citizens as a whole.

The US is one of the most violent nations in the world, if not the most violent. Somehow, it seems to elude people that there exists a direct correlation between easy gun purchase and extreme violence of this nature. And this in the face of the fact that the "deterrent" of the death penalty is alive and well in many states.

Technically, the US is *not* the most violent nation in the world. Shall I draw your attention to places on other continents where living is a daily gamble to avoid being bombed or executed? Where that sort of thing happens on a daily basis...and where the police forces are the ones doing such things? I shouldn't have to name those places, so I won't. Also, the availability of guns does not necessarily correlate with higher incidences of crime...

The death penalty is another matter entirely...but then, to someone who is painting such a broad picture of the US, one might not be interested (nor care) to learn it isn't that popular to begin with. Neither is the classic incarceration model of judicial punishment.

I'm not attempting to sound self-righteous. This is a common problem with Canadians, in my view. They love to get on their pedestals and point a sanctimonious finger down at the US.
It's simply that I find the prevailing mentality utterly baffling.

What prevailing mentality are you referring to? Did you encounter this "prevailing mentality" in Seattle? Portland?

[fable]

Here we go again blaming guns/video games are the real colpruts!

They're really not quite the same, you know, k2jaggededge. On any level. I'll leave others to this, and merely mention that various national polls by reputable polling organizations have shown in the last 5 years USian adults believe there should be stricter gun controls by a margin of anywhere between 60% and 80%.

But there does seem to be something endemically wrong in a society where certain forms of crime repeat beyond the civilized norm. Teenage suicide in Japan, school shooting (and school violence in general) in the US, school bullying in Germany, alcoholism in Russia: something is wrong. The causes can be debated, are being debated, but usually and unfortunately not by politicians. It is a sad fact that the people who can actually make the most difference are least inclined to do more than profit from buzzwords.

[Chanak]

fable raises a good point. An initiative is gaining momentum in certain areas of the US that looks at the *source* of crime - what's causing it, and how do we prevent it? Certainly, the standard model of incarceration - and even the presence of a death penalty in the case of murder and other heinuous violent crimes - does not address the problem.

A study conducted of New York city jails demonstrated that the majority of the inmate population hailed from certain neighborhoods in the city...and that these inmates were mainly repeat offenders. Obviously, the ways in which we deal with crime in this country just doesn't work. A number of researchers are looking at the neighborhoods where these inmates come from...perhaps the solution is there?

Concerning the massacre at Virginia Tech, officials from the FBI and other law enforcement agencies pointed out that unfortunately there is no "profile" of the sort of sick, deranged individual who would perpetrate such a horrific thing. That bothers me.

[Gilliatt]

But there does seem to be something endemically wrong in a society where certain forms of crime repeat far beyond the civilized norm. Teenage suicide in Japan, school shooting in the US, bullying in Germany, alcoholism in Russia: something is wrong. The causes can be debated, are being debated, but usually and unfortunately not by politicians. It is a sad fact that the people who can actually make the most difference are least inclined to do more than profit from buzzwords.

Nice comment Fable. Sometimes the cause is just a case of proximity and of mimesis. For exemple, the guy who did the shooting at the Dawson College in Montreal was a huge "fan" of the Columbine massacre and had an access to guns. That is why he did it that way, not because of his nationality, of a Megadeth song or of his religion.

What happened at Virginia Tech is very sad and we all wish this kind of things will never happen again.

[k2jaggededge]

They're really not quite the same, you know, k2jaggededge. On any level. I'll leave others to this, and merely mention that various national polls by reputable polling organizations have shown in the last 5 years USian adults believe there should be stricter gun controls by a margin of anywhere between 60% and 80%.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

When you said "Certain forms of crime repeat far beyond the civilized norm"
it brings up another topic and another part of society that annoys me. It goes back to the whole politicians being PIMPS. Without question what happened in Virginia is uncivilized for a western culture. However these occurr far less often then FOX or CNN would let you believe. This is one of those freak situation where some nut finally snaps. How can you ever control that? We will be hearing about this for months. But what we won't hear about from CNN and Fox news is how 2 time murders walk free from prison every day. You won’t hear about how undocumented aliens; after being convicted of a crime, stay in the country. My point is simple they won’t talk about these subjects because it is too risky and to touchy of a subject, so politicians take the easy way out. That’s blame the guns for the real incident, since everybody agrees guns are bad. You can never predict incidences like these, but I don’t want to sacrifice civil liberties in exchange. To think you can control every gun that comes into the country is just ignorance, instead of worrying about the guns why not put the people that are responsible for these acts behind bars, and keep them their? . I say the bigger problem is the convicts that are let loose everyday. Also you won’t here on FOX or CNN the mass genocide that goes on in some parts of Africa or Central America, you won't hear about cocaine problem in Panama. Bottom line is that if the topic isn’t pushing an agenda then it will be swept under the rug and forgotten about. Sad but this is way the world works.

[fable]

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

With respect, this has nothing to do with guns. In context, Franklin was stating that the security which comes from being part of Great Britain wasn't worth the loss of control over governmental procedures it entailed.

When you said "Certain forms of crime repeat far beyond the civilized norm" it brings up another topic and another part of society that annoys me. It goes back to the whole politicians being PIMPS. Without question what happened in Virginia is uncivilized for a western culture. However these occurr far less often then FOX or CNN would let you believe.

Where did I state above that I believed these occur frequently? That even 2 or 3 or 4 occur a year, however, is higher than what was previously the norm, which was, simply, 0. Something has changed. Something is broken. We can either deny anything has changed, or we can attempt to identify what's wrong, and propose solutions.

And where have I stated that I watch CNN or Fox, when I've instead repeatedly stated in these forums that I haven't watched television for 16 years? I get my news from a mixture of Web-based resources, including newspapers, governmental sites, internaitonal radio, and blogs. I suspect quite a few people in SYM do as much.

This is one of those freak situation where some nut finally snaps. How can you ever control that?

It depends on what is meant by that. If that means, "school killings," then we have to identify the problems, first, as I just mentioned. If there's a subtext in your comments, however, and you mean that to refer to gun control, then I would point to many European nations where it has been successfully implemented.

We will be hearing about this for months. But what we won't hear about from CNN and Fox news is how 2 time murders walk free from prison every day. You won’t hear about how undocumented aliens; after being convicted of a crime, stay in the country. My point is simple they won’t talk about these subjects because it is too risky and to touchy of a subject, so politicians take the easy way out.

On the contrary, undocumented aliens has been a big subject on the news, from what I read on the Web. There are frequent quotes from coverage by the mainstream television and newspaper media, along with cold statements of fact correcting all the stuff that's being thrown around. Before the November elections, there were plenty of Republican congresspeople and wannabes hoping to play the bigotry/fear card and get voters riled at immigrants. Personally, I think these subjects are too complex to be tossed off as having one cause or one result.

That’s blame the guns for the real incident, since everybody agrees guns are bad.

Ah, I was right about the subtext!

You can never predict incidences like these, but I don’t want to sacrifice civil liberties in exchange. To think you can control every gun that comes into the country is just ignorance, instead of worrying about the guns why not put the people that are responsible for these acts behind bars, and keep them their?

Because the prisons are overcrowded and understaffed, the worst inmates are pulling others down to their level, because prisons are supposed to be something more than holding zones until death-do-us-part, and because, as I mentioned already, controlling guns more tightly means less accidents and less "impulse killings" which apparently accounts for more than 50% of gun-related crimes. I'm not stating this will remove impulse violence; anything else that comes to hand can do the job. But it's much easier to kill someone with a gun during an argument than it is with something else, and when cooler heads prevail later, you don't have those nasty corpses lying around that refuse to get up.

Just my POV, of course. And the gun issue has nothing to do with the Virginia Tech killings, since this was clearly a premeditated act of slaughter.

[Bloodstalker]

These types of things always trigger off the gun debate. While what happened in this case was tragic, I don't think the issue here is whether or not people have access to guns. As far as gun control laws go, I'm all for regulating certain aspects of gun ownership. Of course that wouldn't have likely done much in this case since the guns in question appear to have been stolen and their serial numbers filed off.

I don't understand why cases like this have to be stripped down to "Guns kill people and we need to get rid of all the guns" arguments. These kinds of sensationalist stories get most of the press, but guns are not the sole contributor to mass violence. What about cases of poisoning in food? It was just a couple months ago that Jiff had to recall peanut butter because someone had poisoned it. There was even a pet food poison thing a few weeks back. I stil remember the Tylenol laced with cyanide(I think it was) back in the 80's.

And that's not the half of it. Buildings have been bombed and bomb threats are not all that infrequent. These didn't involve firearms at all.

I don't see how simply removing guns from the equation is going to do anything to solve the real problem. The problem is that people are doing these things in the first place. Something is motivating these people to take the actions they take. Now I don't think you can remove violence from a spciety altogether, and I don't think every person who kills another person is simply a scarred, emotionally distraught individual. Just because a person commits suicide after an action like what took place doesn't mean he felt any guilt at all. It could just as easily been that the person was either tired of living or just wanted to avoid prison and believed death to be a better alternative.

I do think that there are certain aspects about our culture that needs to be addressed in view of the relative frequency of this kind of thing involving schools. And I don't mean looking at movies, music, or games. I think the family is a good place to start. Violent movies have been around since film was available and I don't see how it suddenly has an impact out of the blue in the last few decades.

What I have seen in the last few decades is the increasing amount of children that are basically left to raise themselves. Either the parents don't want the responsibility of being "the bad guy" in their childrens eyes or they just simply can't afford to be at home very much because the economic factors involved require them to work long hours and not be as involved in a childs upbringing. It's almost as if paying for a families needs or luxeries has replaced instilling values and taking the time to be a real part of a childs life. Some of this is dictated by the way things are economically, some of it isn't.

It just strikes me that in a lot of these cases you have the person who did the killing being described the exact same way: A loner, kept to themselves, didn;t talk to much of anybody and so on. In other words very few social skills and no network of friends and support. Most people are simply not wired this way. A lot of the time people who withdraw from things like these people seem to do do so as a protective device I think. The problem is that it builds frustration and anger that can't be released until it explodes.

I just think until those kinds of issues are examined and dealt with it doesn't make any difference what tool the person uses these actions will continue.

Just my thoughts of course.

[superbob263]

I heard about this yesterday when it happend. Then When I went to school today ma spanish teacher senora Warner who had moved here from virgina said that one of her nefews went to the tec shcool where this took place. She does not even know yet if he got hurt or not because she could not get through to her family evidently there was too much phone trafic to get through to anyone in that area she said. So I am woundering how big is this school really? It has to be really huge to have so many conetions to people that the phone lines do not work.

[Fiberfar]

It's very sad when things like that happen.

I guess they'll check if he was a loner (which, according to Norwegian media, he was), if he plays violent computer games and if he is listening to heavy metal with hidden suicide messages.

@ Superbob: I read that there was somewhere around 26 000 students there. Might be wrong though.