This is weird .. I've had this game for years now and I personally think it's the worst RPG I've had. First of it's VERY turn based and you make your move on the spot. There's a level limit of 10 which sucks and the world is so SMALL. How big or long is this game? Because it seems to me as though the whole game is based inside that temple. That's really uncreative imo.
Can I hear why people like this game and perhaps persuade me otherwise please.
Thanks in advance!
ToEE: A game which I never really got round to.
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Lord Plothos
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The game is a direct port of the D&D rules, which are turn based, so that's why it's that way. It is not about exploring a huge world, but about strategic combat. If that's not your thing, that's fine, but Temple's objective was pretty clear, and it succeeds, in my opinion, very well. I personally love the 3.5 rules of D&D, which I play a lot, and so I love the structure of this game. It focuses on what it does well. Plot would be nice, but isn't necessary, because 90% of the game is spent in turn-based combat. That's what it's about. The quests are silly and could have been done better, since they were done at all, but again they represent such a small fraction of the game as to be non-factors. THe trouble is the bulk of them are done early on, so the game often looks rather poor at first, and it misrepresents itself as more of a story-based ROLE-playing game. It's not. It's a strategy game more than that, and it's a good one, IMO.
The level cap is removed by just about any patch combination anybody uses, so it's not an issue, and several mods are available that make the game hard enough that you will be needing those levels.
In the end, if you don't like turn-based strategy or the mechanics of D&D, you probably won't like this game. If you like that, but demand more story, you won't like this game (though again some mods improve the game here too). If you accept that it's a vehicle for building up characters in various combinations and moving them about with careful planning, it does all that you could ask of it.
The level cap is removed by just about any patch combination anybody uses, so it's not an issue, and several mods are available that make the game hard enough that you will be needing those levels.
In the end, if you don't like turn-based strategy or the mechanics of D&D, you probably won't like this game. If you like that, but demand more story, you won't like this game (though again some mods improve the game here too). If you accept that it's a vehicle for building up characters in various combinations and moving them about with careful planning, it does all that you could ask of it.
Proud user and advocate of [url="http://rptools.net/doku.php?id=maptool:intro"]MapTool[/url]for all my RPing-at-a-distance.
(Use the lastest 1.3 build - it's still beta, but stable and far better than 1.2)
(Use the lastest 1.3 build - it's still beta, but stable and far better than 1.2)
Nice reply!Lord Plothos wrote:The game is a direct port of the D&D rules, which are turn based, so that's why it's that way. It is not about exploring a huge world, but about strategic combat. If that's not your thing, that's fine, but Temple's objective was pretty clear, and it succeeds, in my opinion, very well. I personally love the 3.5 rules of D&D, which I play a lot, and so I love the structure of this game. It focuses on what it does well. Plot would be nice, but isn't necessary, because 90% of the game is spent in turn-based combat. That's what it's about. The quests are silly and could have been done better, since they were done at all, but again they represent such a small fraction of the game as to be non-factors. THe trouble is the bulk of them are done early on, so the game often looks rather poor at first, and it misrepresents itself as more of a story-based ROLE-playing game. It's not. It's a strategy game more than that, and it's a good one, IMO.
The level cap is removed by just about any patch combination anybody uses, so it's not an issue, and several mods are available that make the game hard enough that you will be needing those levels.
In the end, if you don't like turn-based strategy or the mechanics of D&D, you probably won't like this game. If you like that, but demand more story, you won't like this game (though again some mods improve the game here too). If you accept that it's a vehicle for building up characters in various combinations and moving them about with careful planning, it does all that you could ask of it.
Well I didn't mind the combat too much tbh. it was a bit weird and EXTREMELY frustrating when your character doesn't hit and you have to wait for the end of everyone's go... You said that these were 3.5 edition rules.. I didn't think they were out at ToEE's time. I thought NWN2 was the first game to use 3.5e. Turn based games I'm fine with. Like NWN is a turn based game, as is all D&D pretty much. It was just a little odd seeing everything stop when in combat I guess. Also, the story... is it ALL based inside that temple? isn't that just a little .. confined if you see what I mean? Don't you get bored of playing in the same environment?
To know there's mods that extend the level cap is reassuring .. how far just out of interest? Also what about this spending your experience to create items .. do people love that part of the game? Is that widely used and loved? If you extend the level cap does that delay item creation with experience?
Thanks in advance.
For your curiosity I'll try answer your questions.
I haven't yet finished the game but I already played a long time and like it a lot.
One of the most important reason I like it is exactly why you don't like it. The turn based is totally great despite glitch in the interface design and mouse glitches. Yes it makes fights very long but also very tactical if you use a little your brain and take time to explore and experiment all the tactical options. I must admit that I haven't yet explored all possibilities but already found many. It 's from far the best turn level RPG I ever played.
For example in this area it is a lot better than the major Baldur's Gates series, despite character levels aren't very high and that involves that magic doesn't get that major and tactical than at the end of the BG series. I also played very old RPG that add tactical turn based fight and none reach that quality level. The second best I can remember is Fallout but ToEE system is much better.
I agree that the world isn't very big but that's not a major point, what important for me is the world density and getting the feeling of an area. And it fits this well even if it's not the best. There's many people to talk with including some in dungeons and the D&D complex system of skills and talk is quite well setup. Eventually the quests are often a little too basic but there's many and that contribute to the world density. The complicate friend/foe setup in the temple is a little disturbing because usually RPG used to be more clear about friends or foes but once you get in it it's nice and give some density. There's many little thing that contribute to setup this world density, I can't quote them all, few quotes, some NPC can evolves during time giving you more dialog options later in the game despite you didn't achieve more quests directly linked to them, there's many little secret to find it's fun even if this too often only directed by the D&D skills system.
The very numerous NPC that can join your party is quite interesting and having 3 increase your options. Yes the party NPC system involves some frustration but I don't remember any that work that well. In previous game I played either they are just more characters in the party because you control almost everything, either you control almost nothing but the game doesn't control well causing many frustrations, anyway no NPC system party I can remember worked very well. ToEE doesn't fail to this rule but I found it's system quite interesting and better than many. Yes for greedy RPG players we are all the treasure they get can be a little frustrating but I played all the beginning without to cheating and get some fun from it, it adds some density to the party NPC and the various behavior depending of the NPC is fun to discover. Yep in the long run I end in cheating by using a little trick to avoid them getting items from treasures. The good point of the party NPC in the game is their diversty and how well many are setup fro their abilities. Very high character available or very low. The D&D system make this working quite well by requiring more xp to level up if the character level is higher and attribute less xp for a higher character than a lower. It makes ok to get in your party a lower level party NPC. Another good point is the little story and talk arround many before you get them in the party and for some when you get them in the party. also a few make some comment when you reach some area. That gives some some personalty more than in many RPG but less than some RPG. They should have more little comments and little talk to set them a strong personality.
One stuff I haven't really explored but that seems quite interesting is about a feature I don't like in D&D it's the alignment stuff. My party is good neutral with a paladin and I tried quickly a chaotic evil party and got a very very different beginning with dark talks more funny than usual for evil characters in similar games like B&G series. It' seems that for once a RPG game is really well setup for an evil party. B&G always failed and all RPG usually have a main quest than doesn't fill well to evil party. I don't like play evil characters because that's quickly disturbing to do so many evil stuff. But it seems that some extreme evil approach and dark humour is setup and will perhaps allow me many laugh and fun fro reaplying this game with an evil party.
Ha well enough even if I have more to say, not the perfect game, but on many features it's a very good quality and the fight turn system is much better than in any RPG.
I haven't yet finished the game but I already played a long time and like it a lot.
One of the most important reason I like it is exactly why you don't like it. The turn based is totally great despite glitch in the interface design and mouse glitches. Yes it makes fights very long but also very tactical if you use a little your brain and take time to explore and experiment all the tactical options. I must admit that I haven't yet explored all possibilities but already found many. It 's from far the best turn level RPG I ever played.
For example in this area it is a lot better than the major Baldur's Gates series, despite character levels aren't very high and that involves that magic doesn't get that major and tactical than at the end of the BG series. I also played very old RPG that add tactical turn based fight and none reach that quality level. The second best I can remember is Fallout but ToEE system is much better.
I agree that the world isn't very big but that's not a major point, what important for me is the world density and getting the feeling of an area. And it fits this well even if it's not the best. There's many people to talk with including some in dungeons and the D&D complex system of skills and talk is quite well setup. Eventually the quests are often a little too basic but there's many and that contribute to the world density. The complicate friend/foe setup in the temple is a little disturbing because usually RPG used to be more clear about friends or foes but once you get in it it's nice and give some density. There's many little thing that contribute to setup this world density, I can't quote them all, few quotes, some NPC can evolves during time giving you more dialog options later in the game despite you didn't achieve more quests directly linked to them, there's many little secret to find it's fun even if this too often only directed by the D&D skills system.
The very numerous NPC that can join your party is quite interesting and having 3 increase your options. Yes the party NPC system involves some frustration but I don't remember any that work that well. In previous game I played either they are just more characters in the party because you control almost everything, either you control almost nothing but the game doesn't control well causing many frustrations, anyway no NPC system party I can remember worked very well. ToEE doesn't fail to this rule but I found it's system quite interesting and better than many. Yes for greedy RPG players we are all the treasure they get can be a little frustrating but I played all the beginning without to cheating and get some fun from it, it adds some density to the party NPC and the various behavior depending of the NPC is fun to discover. Yep in the long run I end in cheating by using a little trick to avoid them getting items from treasures. The good point of the party NPC in the game is their diversty and how well many are setup fro their abilities. Very high character available or very low. The D&D system make this working quite well by requiring more xp to level up if the character level is higher and attribute less xp for a higher character than a lower. It makes ok to get in your party a lower level party NPC. Another good point is the little story and talk arround many before you get them in the party and for some when you get them in the party. also a few make some comment when you reach some area. That gives some some personalty more than in many RPG but less than some RPG. They should have more little comments and little talk to set them a strong personality.
One stuff I haven't really explored but that seems quite interesting is about a feature I don't like in D&D it's the alignment stuff. My party is good neutral with a paladin and I tried quickly a chaotic evil party and got a very very different beginning with dark talks more funny than usual for evil characters in similar games like B&G series. It' seems that for once a RPG game is really well setup for an evil party. B&G always failed and all RPG usually have a main quest than doesn't fill well to evil party. I don't like play evil characters because that's quickly disturbing to do so many evil stuff. But it seems that some extreme evil approach and dark humour is setup and will perhaps allow me many laugh and fun fro reaplying this game with an evil party.
Ha well enough even if I have more to say, not the perfect game, but on many features it's a very good quality and the fight turn system is much better than in any RPG.
I'll add a bad point, dam the final can comes very soon without to have really explored and unset a lot of things. It's not a good design. My chars was level 6 but this final could have occurs at level 5, and lower level clearly possible. Ha well if I replay this will let more new stuff to discover. But that's unpleasant.
Level 6? Finished? You missed/skipped a lot. I wasn't finished with the second level of the temple by level 6. I was having difficulty with the nodes and factions at levels 6 & 7. Another thing, Why do you play rpg's if you find discovering new stuff unpleasant? I mean that's half the joy, I think. discovery, battle, intrigue (not available in ToEE), these are the things that drive me forward.Kenrenk wrote:I'll add a bad point, dam the final can comes very soon without to have really explored and unset a lot of things. It's not a good design. My chars was level 6 but this final could have occurs at level 5, and lower level clearly possible. Ha well if I replay this will let more new stuff to discover. But that's unpleasant.
What are you hoping to see here? Up there, the post is up there.
Thats where this game shines, and if this was it's main purpose then it did it very well. I cant remember a thing about the plot (other than some long lost dwarf who had a lot of loot and was a really good fighter for me, and in the beginning killing dozens and dozens of gnolls). I do remember that my first and 2nd runs were worlds apart - the gear was the same but my tactics werent. Once you created your party (always premade my guys) it was like watching a well oiled machine.Lord Plothos wrote:If you accept that it's a vehicle for building up characters in various combinations and moving them about with careful planning, it does all that you could ask of it.
Where can I d/l this game again? I miss it.
Playing NWN2 now but its definitely not the same