ARRRRRRGGGGG!!! Thread for venting...

Bobphantom · Post by **Bobphantom** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:12 pm

I have to start by saying I have played all of the Black Isle D&D games now except Baldur's Gate II, Throne of Bhaal. And I have loved them...they have been all the good things that everyone raves about. Here is my one real, continuing problem with these games...

The final battles are *IMPOSSIBLE*.

Now, I am sure there are those out there that somehow managed to play the game and win the final battle without ever cheating. And I know the final battle is supposed to be challenging. However, over and again Black Isle amps up the challenge level of the final battles to FAR beyond what a party is prepared for. Put it another way, a party should not go through the module, succeed throughout and level up normally up to the last minute...and then be faced with an opponent who's level is such that the party's attacks and defenses are similar to a kobold attacking a 20th level character.

Am I whining? Perhaps...but I do believe that the enjoyment of the game is seriously compromised when after working hard to get to the point of winning the game, that your party CANNOT, regardless of what you try, tactics, weapons and spells available, win because you just don't have the NEEDED spells to win. Why should there be *specific* spells to win? And if you don't have them, you're screwed aside from cheating.

A game should be designed, of course, to challenge and make you want to play it....you want to win, you want to beat it, and you don't want it to be a cake walk. But, for some reason, Black Isle seems to want to force you to either play it a certain way (make SURE you have a paladin in your group, and a mass haste spell!) or you'll play hours and hours until you get to the end...and learn your group is incapable of defeating the bad guys no matter what.

Now, go ahead and rip me for whining if you like, but I simply ask, seriously, can anyone say they didn't feel overwhelmed by many, if not all, the final battles in these games? Who, seriously, was able to win the final fight without cheat codes, without strategy guides, without having to figure out a very *specific* way to win that often involved running away, hiding, and using the *program's* weaknesses rather than the actual game mechanics, and without cursing out Black Isle? Honestly, is there something intrinsic that I have missed in heading into the final fights?

Sigh. Okay, I'm done.

AvatarOfLight · Post by **AvatarOfLight** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:30 pm

<------- didn't cheat, abuse or whatever

Then again, I am a power gamer. I think a lot about my party structure and I try to get ALL the loot. Don't mind resting/killing spawns to get more xp as I progress through the game. I loved the challenges the way they were by default, but I must point out that the difficulty slider was made for people who just can't progress further. No need to cheat/abuse!

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:24 pm

The fights in Baldur's Gate were easy, same in the Fallout series, although they were avoidable. I had no problems in the first Icewind Dale. I managed to complete all three boss battles with only a single characters. The second one was difficult, yes, but I never have a full six character party... maybe in Baldur's Gate, but never in Icewind Dale. Besides, in the second one you get a good amount of help while fighting the final battle and you only have to kill ONE. Not two, ONE. So focus your strength on the character that should have the least health. There's an optional battle with which I had more trouble than the final battle. You just have to know what do?

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:31 am

I guess you are ranting in the wrong forum.
IWD2 is actually the IE game with least impossible final battle. In my game I won it at the first attempt although my party was already very low on spells from the battles before, the last rest was 2 epic and several small battles before, I didn't know you could rest just before the final battle.
The IWD (normal, HoW, TotL) final battles were harder but they didn't require too many attempts or cheese either.
I didn't have a problem with the PST final either.
The BG,TotSC,BG2 and ToB finals are unfair on the other hand, but those games are unfair anyway, you often get into situations where you are supposed to reload and use preknowledge or other cheese. I think it's considered by the developers as feature to double (or quadruple) your overall playing time. (Your "fun" at those final battles lasts at least 10 times as long.

)

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:04 pm

Really? The only battles I had troubles with on my very first playthrough were

WK group
Imprisoned One
ToB Final
Kangaxx
IWDII GUardian
IWDII final.
TotL final

The second time they were significantly easier.

The PST battle was easy as you were overpowered anyway. XD

But yeah, now most of us play the second one of Heart of Fury and still beat it. It was probably difficult because it was your first time. For Baldur's Gate, most people here have been playing it for over a decade. XD We know the games inside and out. XD

Rhûn · Post by **Rhûn** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:56 pm

Crenshinibon wrote: But yeah, now most of us play the second one of Heart of Fury and still beat it. It was probably difficult because it was your first time. For Baldur's Gate, most people here have been playing it for over a decade. XD We know the games inside and out. XD

I'm one of those people, and Sarevok was unbeatable in my last game, as I chose for RP reasons not to do the TotSC stuff. Same as what the OP said, all the battles previously were fairly easy, and I sped through the game, but the final battle was literally impossible and I had to just give up. So not IWDII related only...

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:18 pm

IWD II was the only game that I wasn't able to solo. ;_; Like, I was able to do everything aside from the final battle. But I was using a Rogue type character. Probably would have been easier as a caster as summons there are strong.

But yeah, I soloed BG using the standard cap of 89,000 and the ToSC one of 160,000, again, using a thief.

RTP · Post by **RTP** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:43 pm

BG was pretty difficult first time I've played it, but managed it.
There's nothing better then defeating Sarevok, and watching the final scene (you know the one when the heroes leave the cemetery and you see dawn; and then you look out your window, and there's also dawn

)

P:T was too easy for me, but I soloed FTR to 6, then switched to rogue and had maxed WIS throughout the game so I finished it with ROG 64 had insane HP and all stats were 25
That was fun...

BG2 was so great, no problem there 'cept for the dragons
BG2:ToB no problems whatsoever 'cept the blue dragon; I had to reload for him.
Liches? lol, viconia, sweety, go command the bad lich. Too bad you can't take them around the world with you...
And I petrified Kangaxx (wand of wonder or what's_it_named; killed my entire party, so I thought "what the hell" and used it on him; had to reload anyways)
Also did 43750 dmg to vampires that failed save vs. sunbeam, still have that screenshot
"vampire: roll 7; save failed
vampire takes 43750 dmg
vampire dies
lol"

IWD and TotSC - hadn't played... after BG2 got too lazy to play non dual wielders

IWD2 - just great, I love the challenge. I laughed, I cried, I slaughtered them all. Still want more...

and yes, you need casters in this game as you need them in all DnD games.
you need them to kill your enemies, to heal you, to summon creatures that will kill your enemies (or that your enemies will kill (so that they won't kill you)), or all of the above.
casters are your friends.
use them to cast spells and they will be grateful to you.

you don't need paladins.
but you do need CG Male Drow RGR/BRB/FTR with two scimitars.
He's a MUST HAVE.

MasterDarkNinja · Post by **MasterDarkNinja** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:04 pm

Some of the boss battles can get insanely difficult when you solo, I pretty much only solo now so I often have trouble against certain bosses all the time.

I honestly don't think I've ever beaten the IWDII final boss without cheating. Part 1 is difficult, but doable sometimes if you can get rid of the summoners fast enough. But then part 2 is just insane, there's so many of those knights standing guard, and they can easily just rip any soloer apart unless you do hit and runs. But then the bosses who are with them have an annoying habit of casting dominate at that point, which takes 5 to 10 real life minutes to wear off it seems. And whenever I can get a soloer to part two with protection from domination I always run into another problem, being unable to pierce the bosses thick armor and protection spells (or unable to pierce it enough before they kill me).

Some of those dragons can be pretty difficult for a soloer as well, like Draconis and the white dragon that can cast spells a wizard usually can.

In Baldur's Gate 2 what drove me crazy more then anything when soloing as warrior classes was stone skin, some bosses have cast that over 15 times in one battle. The final boss in TOB is the worst of all with stone skin, you can't tell just by looking at them if stone skin is still in effect or not. Which means you have to take the risk of walking up to them and attacking them and letting them attack you to see if stone skin has worn off and you can attack them again or not.

Some enemies used to drive me insane when I first started playing, but now they aren't that big of a deal to me. Such as vampires and other level drainers, and mind flayers, I used to go "ha, these guys are barely touching me, WHAT!!! Why did my character just drop dead all of a sudden!!!".

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:47 pm

I'm not a power gamer and the smallest party I have had in IWD 1 was four. But I was also able to win the final battle the first time I went through. I had not loaded How or TotL. My party of six was an average of about 14th level. This was a little disappointing as my mage wasn't high enough level able to use any of the 8th or 9th level spells she had found and added to her spell book. (To me) The biggest thing I had learned in the course of the game was to not feel compelled to hit the toughest bosses head on and try to trade blows with them. I developed several different tactics over the course of the game and they enabled me to win the first time through. Every player develops different styles though.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:32 pm

BGII is soloable with every character. EVERY character. Granted, the Fallen Beastmaster might need to use bugs and cheese...

Now, when I solo BGII, I have no problems with anything. XD Then again, I'm sure it's the same for most of us here. Most of our GB members probably played the series ever since it came out.

As for PS:T, yeah, I never had a problem with this game. If you have a high Constitution score, your health regeneration is amazing, not to mention you can get infinite experience by redoing the Mordron Cube.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:56 pm

Hey guys,
just a reminder, I am aware of the cross-game nature of this thread, but if possible, please try to keep things focused predominantly on IWD2.
It's fine to reference the other Black Isle Games, just make sure that IWD2 remains in your gun sights, otherwise I'm going to have to move this tread to RPG Discussion.

Thanks!