Turning over a new thief...

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:50 am

galraen wrote:I'm curious to know why people prefer a F/T over a M/T, by the time you get to the underdark a M/T can cream an F/T.

I'm trying to imagine Jan going toe-to-toe with the last Fighter/Thief I played. It's not a pretty sight.

Regardless of my own preferences, we're suggesting a character for chaosjinni, who wants to play a melee-heavy party with virtually no arcane magic. As quoted from the other message thread:

chaosjinni wrote:Keldorn

Anomen (is this an anagram of "NoName" ?)

Jaheira

Mazzy

Valygar

PC = F/T or Swashbuckler...

Why I want this line-up

My fighting style is geared towards melee. I don't enjoy the endless exploration of spell combinations/applications as many others do--quite frankly, I'm no good at it...

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:56 am

@ VonDondo, I thought someone had mentioned not wanting AM, but searched this thread and found no reference to it.

As For Jan vs F/T, no it wouldn't be pretty, I can imagine the look of frustration on the F/T's face as hit after hit just bounces of the Stoneskins.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:59 am

galraen wrote:As For Jan vs F/T, no it wouldn't be pretty, I can imagine the look of frustration on the F/T's face as hit after hit just bounces of the Stoneskins.

Not to mention what Jan would be doing to the F/T in the meantime. Probably a few obscene things with turnips thrown in just for fun.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:26 am

VonDondu wrote:Not to mention what Jan would be doing to the F/T in the meantime. Probably a few obscene things with turnips thrown in just for fun.

I'd tried to think up some turnip related quips, but prior to my first cup of coffee, no chance!

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:06 am

VonDondu wrote:Did you glean that from the results I posted, or did you already know that? (I didn't know how the various races stacked up against each other until I rolled them up and compared them.)

It's common sense.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:19 am

Klorox wrote:It's common sense.

Don't take this the wrong way, but that made me laugh. I never realized that "common sense" is the same thing as knowing all of the rules of D&D.

Klorox · Post by **Klorox** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:19 am

VonDondu wrote:Don't take this the wrong way, but that made me laugh. I never realized that "common sense" is the same thing as knowing all of the rules of D&D.

Common sense, in D&D terms.

Halflings get a bonus to DEX, and they have the best base thief skill bonuses.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:41 pm

Yep. Jan is all around powerful.

Again, a mage is probably the best in melee combat. After spell triggering or setting a contingency of a total of six Tensor's and using Improved Haste and Shapechange in advance, even without stoneskin, you're untouchable. Not to mention that the golem fists are perhaps the best weapons for backstabbing.

chaosjinni · Post by **chaosjinni** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:51 pm

[INDENT]"What vegetable makes your eyes water?" Minsc asked.

"A turnip, of course," Jan said.

"NO, it's onions!" Minsc said, folding his arms. "You see? Even boo is smarter than you--he whispered the answer to me. Hah hah haaaah!"

Jan looked up at Minsc and smiled.

"You ever been hit in the balls with a turnip? Trust me, there will be water coming from your ducts," Jan said.

"OK, I don't even wanna know how you get water out of a duck. Time to get away from the scary little man now," Minsc said, suddenly very hungry for fried onions.[/INDENT]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[INDENT]Hopefully that got a groan or two out of you.

And now it's time to hand out chaosjinni kudos.

Heh, that would make a decent name for a band/album/song[/INDENT]

fable
[INDENT]Thanks for the welcome. I hope you don't mind if I call attention to--Posts: 27,182 Join Date: March 2001

Doing some Quick And Dirty Math [QADM], you're averaging 11 posts a day.

Here here! CJ Kudos to you for being so prolific. [/INDENT]

Von

[INDENT]You've managed to outclass me. Even though I replied in the wrong thread, you responded in the correct one!

Here here! CJ Kudos to you for maintaining forum protocol and etiquette, giving me cause to pause in a humble repose.

[/INDENT]

Everyone Else

[INDENT]Your friendly exchange of opinion is well-recieved. Thanks for joining the thread and giving me much more than I bargained for.

Here here! CJ kudos all around for your time and attention to my dilemma.[/INDENT]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[INDENT]Now I'm faced with a new dilemma. Everyone has presented different choices and supported them quite well--quite well indeed.

Possibilities I'm Considering

Single-Class
[INDENT]Swashbuckler
Thief
Bounty Hunter
[/INDENT]

Multi-Class
[INDENT]Fighter/Thief
Fighter/Mage/Thief (I understand spell usage about as much as network executives understand what makes a good television program. Id est. Not well at all.)
[/INDENT]
Dual-Class
[INDENT]Kensai ► Thief
Berserker ► Thief
Fighter ► Thief
[/INDENT]

Some QADM reveals nine choices--without racial considerations in play. A head-swimmingly-large number of permutations, wouldn't you say?[/INDENT]

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:16 am

Try [url="http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Main.htm"]this site[/url] you want to get intimately familiar with the arcane. I haven't found a better reference thus far.

The divine is also discussed if you're searching for more indepth knowledge.

On another note, if you intend to play SoA and ToB as well as continue through the game with a party of four, a multiclass would definitely be a solid choice. Two HLA pools, fast levelling, barely any weak moments in the game XP wise, and the chance to use the advantages of the two classes continuously make a multiclass probably the most powerful character. That is, if power is what you're looking for.

Personally, nowadays I prefer style above power.

But, hey, to each his own.

Saros · Post by **Saros** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:18 am

I stick yet to the Berserker/Thief, because it may not be the most powerful, but surely is one of the easiest. While your F/T or F/M/T will eventually have to use spells from scrolls, your B/T don't need them, since the Enrage will protect him from any disabling effect. But if you wanna ease your life, indeed study arcane a little more. Divination magic too. Because the game cannot(or can very very hard) be won without any spells either from items or from scrolls.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:45 pm

You won't be happy with a single class thief.
A pure thief (the same applies to the bounty hunter) in melee isn't much better than a mage without spells. The low HP and the bad AC (even mages get armor which grants better bonusses) will leave him very vulnerable. With only 1 attack per round and bad thac0 he won't do considerable damage either.

If you create a fighter and dual immediately to thief at the start of the tutorial (or game if you skip it) you'll still play the whole game as thief and get a bonus to hit and damage (applies to backstabs too), twice as many attacks per rounds, far more HP and can use better equipment.
If you are patient you can take 9 instead of 7 fighter levels before dualing to thief, but you'll only gain a few extra HP for doing so.
I don't recommend starting as kensai, you'll want to be able to wear good equipment from the beginning and having Jaheira cast barkskin all the time because you can't wear armor is annoying.
If berserker rage is more important than being able to get more than 1 proficiency point in bows depends on your playing style.

A (preferable halfling or half-orc) swashbuckler can be fun too if you can live without additional damage bonus when backstabbing, the AC, to hit and damage bonuses improve with levels and you can get an extra attack per round dualwielding.

A fighter/thief multiclass is more powerful, both fighter and thief class improve with levels.

Most powerful by far is the fighter/mage/thief, but if you have to force yourself to play one against your will, you won't get far before you quit the game.
If you are just afraid of the mage spells, consider that using them requires a little bit of thinking, beating the game without a genius.
Even if you restrict yourself to use only one single spell per level, the FMTs advantage will be immense, and the disadvantages nearly non-existent.
You'll still get more than enough thieving skill points, the "find familiar" spell will even out the HP, the experience for scribing scrolls will make the party level faster, mirror image and stone skin will turn this character into the best tank while haste spells will take the party from half power to full power.

This was a comparison in power, what would be most fun for you I don't know. I got the impression that you'd have the most fun if you solo the game.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:18 pm

Still, despite what kmonster said, I have to go for thieves. They are great and powerful characters, even without relying on traps and yes, while their TAC0 is bad, you just have to do everything you can to increase it, such as using weapons with a high enchantment, increase your strength and equip items that give to THAC0. Thieves can get VERY powerful, but for me, they're always fun to play. The thing about a vanilla thief (the basic class itself) is that it has so many skill points to allocate. The thief can be such a useful character AND have a great experience income from locks and traps while being a great scout and fighter (through backstabs), also shoplifting shouldn't be forgotten as you can STEAL the items from some shops and there's one shop that will let you buy and sell stolen goods.

When they get their epic abilities, the thiefs become even more powerful, able to fell a dragon with traps alone AND they can use any item, not to mention for one round, make all their attacks count as backstabs.

chaosjinni · Post by **chaosjinni** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:34 pm

All right, I'm curious.

How long will it take the multi-class options to get high levels in a four-member party? Anyone know off-hand?

I'm especially interested in the F/M/T

My QADM tells me that a triple-class character in a four-member party would be like having a six-member party, yes?

So it should take the same amount of time as a single-class character in a six-member party?

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:31 pm

A single class thief in a 6 member party gains about twice as many XP as a FMT for his thief class in a party of 4.

Crenshinibon · Post by **Crenshinibon** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:12 pm

If you're taking the F/M/T course, you should know that at full level you will NOT be able to cast level nine spells, while you will be able to learn them and you will NOT receive the high levels abilities of a mage.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:58 am

If you want to look at a debate concerning a two class multiclass character versus a tripleclass character, you might want to look [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/baldurs-gate-ii-throne-of-bhaal-25/good-thief-mage-combo-for-soa-and-tob-87157.html"]here[/url]. kmonster, who opted for the tripleclass F/M/T, has some very valid points.

Celacena · Post by **Celacena** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:17 pm

I've been having a bit of naughty fun - playing multiplayer with created NPCs who I export and re-import.
main character got throne on the deck in WK - if you multiplay, throne, export, load, reimport and repeat, you can have absurdly high level NPCs to experiemnt with - I tried a Kensai dualled to thief and whilst I liked the HP, it wasn't as much fun as expected. did the same with mage and did the same without dualling.

gives you a chance to explore different NPC builds

chaosjinni · Post by **chaosjinni** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:28 pm

Great, thanks guys, I'll look into that thread...