Hi all,
I need advice on creating and "operating" a good Thief, please. I really like the idea of a Chaotic Neutral, moody, impetuos rogue who is as unpredictable as the weather, cheeky with the authority but generous with the needy - if she feels like it. On her bad days, she'd backstab even a helpless child if the wretched infant's way would cross hers. Ideally, she would prefer light combat, perhaps from a safe range, leaving the dirty work for the others.
Now, the concept is nice, but I don't know how to put it into practice, i.e. how to create a successful Thief character.
What weapons should I use? I'd like the idea of dual wielding, is that viable? I don't really understand how the penalties work but I can tell that she does way less dmg than a paladin with a 2h sword. Is dual wielding a good idea, or should I stick to one 1h weapon?
Shields, do they hinder movement or affect Hiding in any way?
What are Detect Illusion and Move Silently good for? Do I use Move Silently automatically if I use Hide?
Also, I'd like her to be effective with the bow - will she ever be able to use a long bow? If not, will I be able to raise her Short Bow skill high enough so that her damage would actually make a difference?
Thanks a bunch!
The Thief concept
I think most would say that a pure thief is somewhat limited in its effectiveness, you might want to consider a fighter/thief?
As for duel-wielding, its very effective, make sure stars are put into two weapon style. Though th actual damage may be less than a paladin with a 2-handed sword, you get more attacks/round, and the bonuses of the 2 weapons, which can be very important.
I'm not sure about shields, I've never really used them - the extra weapon is genrally more useful than the extra AC. But I'm pretty sure they won't hinder sneaking.
Move silently is required to remain hidden in shadows after the orignal roll is successful, and is therefore useful if you want to backstab. 150ish points should do.
Detect illusion is effectively a free true sight spell, useful stuff, but a mage will be able to do it too.
A pure class theif will never be able to use long bows, but thatr doesn't matter too much - the best bow in the game (arguably) is a short bow.
Hope thats of use,
mcgregor
As for duel-wielding, its very effective, make sure stars are put into two weapon style. Though th actual damage may be less than a paladin with a 2-handed sword, you get more attacks/round, and the bonuses of the 2 weapons, which can be very important.
I'm not sure about shields, I've never really used them - the extra weapon is genrally more useful than the extra AC. But I'm pretty sure they won't hinder sneaking.
Move silently is required to remain hidden in shadows after the orignal roll is successful, and is therefore useful if you want to backstab. 150ish points should do.
Detect illusion is effectively a free true sight spell, useful stuff, but a mage will be able to do it too.
A pure class theif will never be able to use long bows, but thatr doesn't matter too much - the best bow in the game (arguably) is a short bow.
Hope thats of use,
mcgregor
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Crenshinibon
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If you plan to use a pure thief (aside from a swashbuckler), then I would strongly suggest against dual wielding as thieves have a dreadfully low THAC0 dual wielding makes it even worse. As a thief, you'll most likely be backstabbing anyway, so one weapon is good enough.
As for skills, as your character seems like a moody Robin Hood type, I'd suggest starting with at least 90 in open locks and detect traps, with the rest going into hide in shadows and move silently. Towards the end, I'd put points into pick pockets or set traps, if your character is a trapper.
Detect illusion is a pretty useful skill, one that I usually get in mid game as it can be used without limit and mages have better spells to fill their level six slots with than True Sight.
If you do decide to go with my suggestion and use a single weapon, you'll be able to use bucklers (there's a very nice one in ToSC) in your other hand, which will improve your ac.
What I would do is I'd start out as a fighter class, possibly a Kensai for the much needed melee boost and the dual class (you need to be human to do that) into a thief.
If you're soloing, I'd dual class in the early twenties, if you have other party members then I'd dual right away or at level 14.
But even without dualing, a pure thief would do.
As for skills, as your character seems like a moody Robin Hood type, I'd suggest starting with at least 90 in open locks and detect traps, with the rest going into hide in shadows and move silently. Towards the end, I'd put points into pick pockets or set traps, if your character is a trapper.
Detect illusion is a pretty useful skill, one that I usually get in mid game as it can be used without limit and mages have better spells to fill their level six slots with than True Sight.
If you do decide to go with my suggestion and use a single weapon, you'll be able to use bucklers (there's a very nice one in ToSC) in your other hand, which will improve your ac.
What I would do is I'd start out as a fighter class, possibly a Kensai for the much needed melee boost and the dual class (you need to be human to do that) into a thief.
If you're soloing, I'd dual class in the early twenties, if you have other party members then I'd dual right away or at level 14.
But even without dualing, a pure thief would do.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
If you want to use a bow I don't recommend using two weapons or a shield. Else (since you can't have a bow in the quick weapon slot when the off hand isn't empty) you'll have to enter the inventory each time you switch to bow which is annoying.
If you don't want to multiclass I recommend the assassin kit. The damage bonus and poisoning ability is especially useful for weapons with many attacks with low base damage like bows and x7 backstab is deadly.
A more powerful choice is a multiclass fighter/thief because of the extra attacks fighters get. It's probably the best choice for your playing style.
Halfling is the best race because of 19 dex, thieving skill bonuses
and - even more important - enormous saving throw bonuses.
For a human thief with the fighter benefits start as a human fighter and dual to thief immediately at the start of the tutorial.
Shortbow is the best ranged weapon choice, long or crossbows aren't that great.
Find traps and pick locks are the essential skills but you don't need more than about 90 and in the first half of the game even less. I'd ignore detect illusions. Pickpocketing can be raised with potions or affected by reloading.
Set traps can be extremely powerful if you want to use it. More than 100 is wasted. Move silently only kicks in if you want to stay hidden more than 1 round which is usually sufficient for backstab. I wouldn't spend more than 100 into any skill before the other important ones are perfect.
If you don't want to multiclass I recommend the assassin kit. The damage bonus and poisoning ability is especially useful for weapons with many attacks with low base damage like bows and x7 backstab is deadly.
A more powerful choice is a multiclass fighter/thief because of the extra attacks fighters get. It's probably the best choice for your playing style.
Halfling is the best race because of 19 dex, thieving skill bonuses
and - even more important - enormous saving throw bonuses.
For a human thief with the fighter benefits start as a human fighter and dual to thief immediately at the start of the tutorial.
Shortbow is the best ranged weapon choice, long or crossbows aren't that great.
Find traps and pick locks are the essential skills but you don't need more than about 90 and in the first half of the game even less. I'd ignore detect illusions. Pickpocketing can be raised with potions or affected by reloading.
Set traps can be extremely powerful if you want to use it. More than 100 is wasted. Move silently only kicks in if you want to stay hidden more than 1 round which is usually sufficient for backstab. I wouldn't spend more than 100 into any skill before the other important ones are perfect.
Thanks for the replies!
OK, 1h weapon and Short Bow allt he way, then!
Regarding a Fighter/Thief combo - What is the point in gaining just 1 level (well, 6 in effect) in Fighter and then go straight for Thief? Multiclass sounds better - then I could advance in the Fighter class, too, raising weapon skills further. Say I pick Swords and Short Bows and Katanas, and gain ++++ with all of them, wouldn't that be cool?
Does anyone know if seathed weapons make Hiding harder? I'm not sure if the game takes this into account or not, but it would make sense if Hide suffered some kind of penalty if the char had a huge shiny 2h weapon at the ready.
)
OK, 1h weapon and Short Bow allt he way, then!
Regarding a Fighter/Thief combo - What is the point in gaining just 1 level (well, 6 in effect) in Fighter and then go straight for Thief? Multiclass sounds better - then I could advance in the Fighter class, too, raising weapon skills further. Say I pick Swords and Short Bows and Katanas, and gain ++++ with all of them, wouldn't that be cool?
Does anyone know if seathed weapons make Hiding harder? I'm not sure if the game takes this into account or not, but it would make sense if Hide suffered some kind of penalty if the char had a huge shiny 2h weapon at the ready.
Aha! So basically, if I have 100 in the skills I use the most (namely Hide/Silently, Search, Open Locks) then I might as well stop there and pick up a different class, because I won't need to boost these skills any further? (I'm aware of the restrictions of dual-classing, so altogether I don't find it a good idea, I'm just theorycrafting hereFind traps and pick locks are the essential skills but you don't need more than about 90 and in the first half of the game even less. I'd ignore detect illusions. Pickpocketing can be raised with potions or affected by reloading.
Set traps can be extremely powerful if you want to use it. More than 100 is wasted. Move silently only kicks in if you want to stay hidden more than 1 round which is usually sufficient for backstab. I wouldn't spend more than 100 into any skill before the other important ones are perfect.
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Crenshinibon
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To gain the abilities of a kit and gain grandmastery (*****) in a weapon.
A multiclassed character can only gain proficiency with a weapon (**). Also, by dual classing, you'd get more skill points.
Weapons do not affect hiding at all. Note that you can only backstab with a weapons that are usable by a normal thief, so no backstabing with two handed swords or halberds.
Only for some skills. I often find that 100 in hide in shadows isn't enough. Move silently is still worth getting in case you fail a backstab, you have a few rounds to make another attempt.
About 100 is enough for find traps and open locks as well as Detect Illusion.
With dual classing you get more control over your character and it lets you use a kit, should you decide to start out as one.
A multiclassed character can only gain proficiency with a weapon (**). Also, by dual classing, you'd get more skill points.
Weapons do not affect hiding at all. Note that you can only backstab with a weapons that are usable by a normal thief, so no backstabing with two handed swords or halberds.
Only for some skills. I often find that 100 in hide in shadows isn't enough. Move silently is still worth getting in case you fail a backstab, you have a few rounds to make another attempt.
About 100 is enough for find traps and open locks as well as Detect Illusion.
With dual classing you get more control over your character and it lets you use a kit, should you decide to start out as one.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
My personal favourite thief is the swashbuckler. They cannotbackstab but they can dual wield and after a while they really hold their own in combat next to most fighters.
However your description sounds more like the assassin to me.
If you can live without the backstab though I can really recommend the swashbuckler and three stars in two-weapon style.
However your description sounds more like the assassin to me.
If you can live without the backstab though I can really recommend the swashbuckler and three stars in two-weapon style.
You can't handle the truth!
The point of starting as fighter and dualing to thief immediately is that you gain most fighter benefits (extra HP, +1 attack per round, specialisation bonus to hit and damage, ability to use fighter gear) nearly for free, 89,000 XP are nothing compared to the 220,000 XP you need for an additional thief level on the long run.Sanguin wrote:OK, 1h weapon and Short Bow allt he way, then!
Regarding a Fighter/Thief combo - What is the point in gaining just 1 level (well, 6 in effect) in Fighter and then go straight for Thief? Multiclass sounds better - then I could advance in the Fighter class, too, raising weapon skills further. Say I pick Swords and Short Bows and Katanas, and gain ++++ with all of them, wouldn't that be cool?
The only important benefit you get from more fighter levels is an extra half attack per round at level 13 when most of the game is already over.
Your first posts pointed more into the dualclass direction, but after reading your latest post I think a halfling fighter/thief multiclass is rather what you are looking for.
You don't even need to boost those skills at all, locks can be opened by the party mage with a level 2 spell, traps can be handled by reloading until you survive triggering them, perfect stealth can be gained using invisibility spells or items. The only skill which makes combat easier is trapsetting.Aha! So basically, if I have 100 in the skills I use the most (namely Hide/Silently, Search, Open Locks) then I might as well stop there and pick up a different class, because I won't need to boost these skills any further? (I'm aware of the restrictions of dual-classing, so altogether I don't find it a good idea, I'm just theorycrafting here
The reason behind recommending the other skills is fun. Handling those skills with spells and reloading is extremely annoying.
It's also more fun if you have a 95 percent chance to successfully pickpocket everyone but thieves and shops naturally instead of relying on potions and reloads.
Multi or Dual I think depends on how you want to play the thief.
If you want to play the char as support fighter with thieving abilities (mainly open locks/find traps with occasional backstab) go multiclass.
If you want to truly play a thief, exploiting traps and so on, dual class will give you more ability points to spend in the short run.
Take into consideration that after lev20-25 of thief you don't have anything to gain being a thief (the extra ability points are wasted because you have almost maxed everything), so if you plan to play ToB pure (dual) thief is not worth for me.
I would go for a multi, and I enjoyed very much an half-orc, for the extra hp (19 con) and the 19 in strenght (good for fighting and backstabbing), dualwield and specialization in L.swords/katanas/clubs, no ranged attack but a great fighter.
If you like a more ranged approach go elf/halfling for 19 dex (better thac0) and specialize in s.bows/staves 2 H. weapon style (specially if you plan to go in ToB), or swords/clubs 1 H weapon style.
If you want to play the char as support fighter with thieving abilities (mainly open locks/find traps with occasional backstab) go multiclass.
If you want to truly play a thief, exploiting traps and so on, dual class will give you more ability points to spend in the short run.
Take into consideration that after lev20-25 of thief you don't have anything to gain being a thief (the extra ability points are wasted because you have almost maxed everything), so if you plan to play ToB pure (dual) thief is not worth for me.
I would go for a multi, and I enjoyed very much an half-orc, for the extra hp (19 con) and the 19 in strenght (good for fighting and backstabbing), dualwield and specialization in L.swords/katanas/clubs, no ranged attack but a great fighter.
If you like a more ranged approach go elf/halfling for 19 dex (better thac0) and specialize in s.bows/staves 2 H. weapon style (specially if you plan to go in ToB), or swords/clubs 1 H weapon style.
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Crenshinibon
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Why would you want to reverse it? You would simply dual class after reaping the benefits of the first class. Usually, most classes do not gain that much of a benefit after twenty, so you might as well dual class.
For immense backstab damage you would probably want to go for an Assassin/thief dual class, but you'd need to buff beforehand. Something simpler is a Kensai/Thief. Great AC, great damage, Kai complements the backstab, and a more powerful melee presence. In my opinion, the fighter/thief pales in comparison, although you DO get to take Smite and Assassination multiple times.
For immense backstab damage you would probably want to go for an Assassin/thief dual class, but you'd need to buff beforehand. Something simpler is a Kensai/Thief. Great AC, great damage, Kai complements the backstab, and a more powerful melee presence. In my opinion, the fighter/thief pales in comparison, although you DO get to take Smite and Assassination multiple times.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”
I don't agree with that. A multiclass is better than a dual in his lesser class an inferior in his main class -> a F/T is a better fighter than a fighter->thief (even a kensai) and is inferior as a thief. Obviously I'm talking of dualling at reasonable level. I usually dual a fighter at 9th it take very short time to recover the abilities and you got most of the benefit of a fighter so you can play the game with your F/T. I agree that a 13 or 15 or even higher Kensai dualled to thief is an awesome char, once he have regained the abilities though (very late in SoA or in ToB). If you want toplay a F/T IMO I don't think is worth to play a fighter for 1/3 of the game, a thief for 1/3 and a F/T only for the last part.
A kensai/thief (9/xx) is a very good thief with decent melee power and good backstabbing abilities. Will lack in Thac0 and AC (untill he gains UAI) but will have superior thieving abilities.
So as I said in my previous post, if you want mainly a thief go for a dual class, if you want a fighter/backstabber that can take care of the basic thieving skills go a multi.
A kensai/thief (9/xx) is a very good thief with decent melee power and good backstabbing abilities. Will lack in Thac0 and AC (untill he gains UAI) but will have superior thieving abilities.
So as I said in my previous post, if you want mainly a thief go for a dual class, if you want a fighter/backstabber that can take care of the basic thieving skills go a multi.
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Crenshinibon
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Well, if you solo and are looking for power, dualing to a thief from Kensai in your late twenties would produce a powerful character. Again, if you're soloing, you can complete the character before ever entering chapter 3.
As for swashbucklers, they are very powerful indeed. They can hold their own in melee and at some point, you'll be walking around with a constant -24AC.
As for swashbucklers, they are very powerful indeed. They can hold their own in melee and at some point, you'll be walking around with a constant -24AC.
“The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially.”