New Player Looking for Advice

[Thrasher91604]

New Player Looking for Party Building Advice

Just about ready to finish IWD + HoW +TotL, and want to play the sequel.

I see a LOT of ultimate powergaming party recommendations here, each optimized for a particular kind of gameplay style. Is this required?

I'd prefer to create a diverse party (all races, all classes, maybe all alignments represented) that can handle any situation in a variety of ways (including through dialog). I would get bored quickly if every encounter had to be played the same: via powergamed buffed tanks and decoys, or cheesey summons, or disabling spells, or wail of the banshees, or ....

Playing through IWD in HoW mode has been tedious (though certainly rewarding).

I'm looking for more balanced gameplay with more variety, and much faster pacing!

Thanks in advance!

[Klorox]

You only need to worry about those powergaming parties if you are going to replay in HoF mode.

You'll do fine in regular mode with a balanced party.

[kmonster]

You don't even have to worry about those powergaming parties if you are going to replay in HoF mode, a balanced party good enough for normal mode is good enough for HoF mode too.

[Thrasher91604]

Thank you both!

I'd like to try the monk class and the ECL races as well as the other classes.

Can I make a viable party with all these (possibly in multi-classed characters)?

Thanks again!

Obviously I can't play every cleric and paladin domain in the same game too..

Wondering if it's worthwhile to get a diverse set of alignments in one party? The evil powers of my evil cleric/mage in IWD HoF were only helpful at the beginning. Later, everything saved... Even with gran malision, curse, recitation, etc....

[kmonster]

Saving vs spells works totally different in 3e, so even in the last chapter you can have a very high success chance with some spells.
I wouldn't take an evil cleric, being able to change memorized cleric spells into healing spells is too useful.
Multiclassing doesn't work that well in 3E, you don't get 11 levels for the price of 1 anymore. The experience needed for a level 12 mage in 2E is enough for a level thief11/mage11 in 2E but in 3E only enough for a thief6/mage6.
Multiclassing a monk or caster will cripple him, being limited to level 1-4 spells when you're supposed to be able to cast level 8 spells ensures an extremely hard game.
But multiclassing warriors usually doesn't hurt since they don't get that much from high levels.

Essential for an easy game is a fast levelling cleric and sorcerer or (specialist) mage. The game won't be too hard if you have both, no matter what the remaining characters are.

[Thrasher91604]

I was thinking of the following party (in normal mode - and maybe continued for a replay in HoF mode). It's based on Dave Milward's FAQ.

Aasimar Paladin of Helm 26 / Fighter 4
Gold Dwarf Battleguard of Tempus 30
Human Monk 30
Human Druid 29 / Ranger 1
Drow Rogue 20 / Wizard 10
Tiefling Diviner 30

I know this is by far not the most powerful party possible. But I prefer a fun party (meaning, requiring diverse tactics) rather than a one-dimensional power party. I like this base because there's no XP penalties for multi-classing, too

The only classes missing here are Barbarian, Bard, and Sorcerer classes.

I'd like to get a Bard in there somehow, the others are less important. But swapping with the Diviner would give up a full time spellcaster. Want to keep the Rogue, cause sneak attacks can be fun and tactically the right thing to do. Plus traps are annoying.

Perhaps a human Bard / Rogue character instead of the drow Rogue / Wizard, and make the Diviner a generalist so he can summon in a pinch? Then I'd lose the drow race.

Another option is to perhaps swap out the monk for the Bard, but I'd hate to give up on the monk.

There's barely enough race diversity to keep me happy. I'd like to get a deep gnome in there, somehow, though. Probably be a swap for the Tiefling, but perhaps a deep gnome would make a better rogue/illusionist (except for the strength hit). Strongheart halfing could be a rouge/sorcerer - but would take the strength hit. Missing halflings, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs is bareable...

Other tweaks I'm considering:
- Change the Battleguard to a Dreadmaster of Bane to gain some more quests, although the domain abilities for Lathander or others seem better. But if I pick an evil domain (like Bane), then would that prevent spontaneous casting of healing spells? Also the domain abilities should be those that help frontliner...
- Maybe change the Drow Rogue 20 / Wizard 10 to a Human Rogue / Sorcerer. More as a secondary spellcaster for buffs - less of a bombadier. But less race diversity.... A wild elf may work - but there's that intelligence hit....

Thoughts?

[kmonster]

Unless you cheat your average party level will be below 17 at the end of the game so there's no need to for thinking about class distribution at level 30.

Don't make the mistake to specialize your fighter/paladin in longswords for the paladin sword you can find near the end, specialize in 2-handed swords (and maybe in axes for ranged combat) and max out strength. Else he'll be totally dwarfed by the cleric's combat power.

You can create a lawful neutral Dreadmaster of Bane if you want to get both the extra battle and spontaneous healing. I'd have more fun with a battleguard however. His domain spells are only cleric spells but they are useful and the axe focus helps all the time.

Human isn't the best race for monks. You don't need the extra feat and you don't need the skillpoints either. A half-orc would be superior since int and cha are dump stats and 20 str could improve the monk's low damage output. Most popular is the deep gnome race because of the enormous racial bonuses. If you are only interested in the defense this guy can be nearly invulnerable.

The ranger level for the druid is wasted. It only slows down the spell progression. If you absolutely want to multiclass your druid a barbarian or monk level offers far more.

Your diviner gets all the mage spells you need, you don't need a backup, summon monster 1-9 can be also cast by the cleric and the powerful summoning spells aren't conjuration spells anyway. Web isn't that good anymore in 3e so the most useful conjuration spell is "ghost armor" which you can do without.

I don't like your rogue/wizard mix. Late access to low level mage spells won't really support your party. If you want maximum sneak attack damage maximize strength, go 2-handed and take rogue levels, if you don't want melee sneak attacks 1 rogue level is more than enough for the remaining skills. It's also a waste if you don't take a specialist wizard (like transmuter, a transmuter with high enough alchemy skill can create useful potions when you to find a laboratory) instead of a generalist.

[Thrasher91604]

Thanks for the advice!

The Deep Gnome looks nice for the monk. Does the racial spell resistance stack with the monk's class SR?

Is the -2 to strength for the Deep Gnome a major hindrance? That was why I did not consider it earlier. It looks like a Deep Gnome monk would be more defensive than a half-orc, who would have +4 strength when compared to a Deep Gnome. Does that translate to an extra +2 to hit and damage?

Do you think a more defensive deep gnome would be better than a more offensive half-orc?

I was thinking that the rogue/wiz would mainly use his spells for self-buffing, which are low-level enough to be useful, but if therre''s only 16 leves of XP, how many levels of wiz would make this possible?

Perhaps I could make the monk be the scout (taking the sneaking skills) and the rogue could take the lock/trap/ and pickpocket skills? Although the deep gnome gets the search bonus...

Are you suggesting replacing the Dviner with specialist Transmuter, or which member would be replaced?

Is a ranger not so great? I though the two weapon fighting feats would be fun.

Is there a way to get a bard into this part effectively?

Thanks!

[Aerich]

Personally, I think diversity comes from spell options. Your battleguard can double as a tank (particularly if you take 1-4 levels of fighter), as can your monk. Svirfnebli make great monks, and can tank after a few levels. Therefore, you can drop the paladin/fighter in favour of something with a little more spell punch, like a sorceror or pal/sorc, or even make something like a fighter4/wizard (drow).

I'd make the rogue/wizard a rogue/bard, which is a great support character (rogue skills, bard songs and spells, all dialogue skills). 5-7 levels of rogue are more than enough. If you wanted to fit a few barbarian levels in, I'd add it to the druid class. One of my favourite combos is a fighter4/barbarian3/druidX with the shapeshifting mod. With max physical stats (Str and Con, with near-max Dex), it's a great tank too. I'm not a great fan of specializing wizards - but it's ok if you have sufficient other arcane spellcasters, so the diviner can stay if you take a sorc and/or another wizard.

Edit: gosh I started writing this a long time ago. Now I've got more stuff to address.

Racial spell resistance stacks with a monk's SR. With evasion, it means a DG monk hardly ever gets hurt by spells after lvl 13. You can add points to a monk's Str. I personally like to make a DG monk more defensive and use another character or two (like a Ftr/Barb or melee-oriented cleric or druid) to provide the melee punch.

You'd want as many wiz levels as you could take. A rogue2/wiz should give you plenty, if the character is a secondary caster.

Monks make good scouts. If you max their Dex (as you should), they'll get some "natural" points in the sneaking skills anyway.

Keep the Diviner. The Transmuter's "bonus" isn't so good that I'd remake an entire character just to get it. But yes, if you were going to do it, the Diviner should be the character replaced.

No, ranger is not that great. Don't forget, you can only use the class-based feats wearing light or no armor, meaning it's hard to be a tank. A ranger is better suited for a scout/sniper type.

[kmonster]

Monks aren't great damage dealers. Monk fists don't offer a to hit bonus or the extra strength bonus to damage like magical two-handed weapons do. Their strength are special abilities like stunning blow and enormous defense. The best saving throws, wisdom bonus to AC, spell resistance, evasion, ...
The deep gnome gets +2 dex and wis, +4 AC, spell resistance and mirror image (can absorb a lot of criticals), the half-orc gets +4 str (+2 to hit and damage) and the level dependent things (like BAB, HP or monk specials) faster.
The powergaming choice is deep gnome, but you've to decide for yourself. Do you want your monk to be a perfect defensive meatshield for the rest of your party or another serious damage dealer ?

My transmuter statement was that a rogue/transmuter is better than a rogue/wizard if you already have a diviner as main caster.
The main arcane spell for self-buffing is "mirror image" which can be obtained with 3 (specialist) wizard or 4 sorcerer/bard levels.
For scouting and stealth you don't need a thief, even a paladin can hide in shadows successfully and attack from there, the only thief bonus are the additional 1d6 melee sneak attack damage for every two levels which isn't that earthshaking considering how much damage a buffed character can do without and how many hitpoints 3E monsters have.
Any character with 1 rogue level can handle all the thieving skills if he has high enough int. If you want to mix in bard a rogue1/bard x is the strongest choice, but you can even keep the levels even if you need a drow without multiclassing penalty and don't mind getting less bard songs and spells.
You could also keep the bard pure and mix 1 rogue level to your diviner since both benefit from high int and have cha as dump stat.
You could even have the diviner handle the thieving skills without a single rogue level, int and dex yield high enough stat modifiers to succeed with a few retries.
If you want a sorc it's better to make him pure and mix the rogue levels to the diviner.

Another option to distribute the thief levels is changing character1 into a tiefling paladin3/fighter4/rogue x. It could be a very effective damage dealing rogue if you distribute the stats right.

Dualwielding isn't that great at high levels in IWD2. 2-handed weapons do far more damage than 1-handed in 3e, have a higher reach and grant additional damage bonus for high strength. The more base attacks per round you gain the less useful the single off-hand attack gets.
A druid does more damage with polearms than dualwielding and while shapeshifted it doesn't help either.
If you want to mix in dualwielding ranger levels you could make character 1 a tiefling paladin3/ranger3/fighter4/rogue x and dualwield the paladin longsword in the last chapter.

[Thrasher91604]

This is all great input!

Let me try to synthesize this.

First, off, I think I need to back up a bit, and think about each character's role and my preferred gameplaying style.

I prefer the use of spells over melee, because of the variety and flexibility. But, appreciate the need for good meleers in situations when spells are less effective.

Now one thing about IWD 2 I'm not sure I understand is the need for a defensive, spell and melee damage immune, "decoy" character.

In IWD 1, I played that role with cheap / disposable summons that could be recast as they died off. Animate Dead, Elementals, and Shamblers were my favorites. Enemies could be stuck in place with the summons as distractors, using webs and entangles as second lines of defense. Damaging area of effect spells could be cast, and missiles could be fired from a distance.

With IWD 2, is it true that this approach doesn't work anymore? Is that because the web / entangle spells don't work, or that summons are less effective somehow (fewer/weaker or too short of a duration)?

It just seems like a big waste to spend a slot on a character that is just a decoy. And being the only decoy, what if the enemies don't focus on him, and turn to the rest of the party? Seems likely enough?

So getting back to the party... A monk seems like an excellant decoy, but not so good as ranged or melee attacker (until the highest levels)? Or am I missing something.

When you say I can make a deep gnome monk a tank, is that as a pure monk, or with some fighter levels? Fighter levels would cause XP penalties, I believe.

So here is an updated party - assuming only 16 levels total per character. Still not completely happy with it.

Gold Dwarf Battleguard of Tempus 12 / Fighter 4 (secondary healer? - primary tank)
Deep Gnome (or Half-Orc) Monk 16 (scout if deep gnome, secondary tank?)
Human Druid 16 (primary healer? / summoner / trapper / secondary buffer / secondary tank - shapeshifted)
Aasimar Paladin of Mystra 2 / Sorcerer 14 (buffer / bombadier / secondary tank)
Human Rogue 2 / Bard 14 (party spokesman, thieving, buffing, secondary scout)
Tiefling Wizard 16 (generalist mu, bombadier, identifier )

That's a lot of ECL classes. Is that too much on normal? I may, just might, replay on HoF mode.

I like the melee defensive Demarch of Mask domain spells (namely mirror image, blur, and improved invisibility) and the free Blind Fight feat. Are the Battleguard's free axe feats and the Tempus's Strength (1/day) ability better? I guess it comes down to whether axes are really great or not since all the battleguard domain spells are available as cleric spells. Otherwise, I assume there's no access to slashing type damage for a cleric. Not sure how important that is.

I seem to have a lot of secondary tanks and no pure primary. Seems a but much. Perhaps I should make the Paladin / Sorcerer a pure sorcerer? I like the Paladin's aura of courage though. Or make the Bard a Sorcerer/Bard. Do both classes add together to determine spell-casting level?

I wonder about a rogue / paladin. Don't the alignment requirements conflict?

Also, I'm a bit uncomfortable having my backup healer and only cleric in the front. That seems risky, in case someone needs clerical help.

I lost a good character for a Drow because of the multi-class XP penalty (the Rogue / Wizard is now a Rogue / Bard).

I could make the Wizard the Drow and the Tiefling the Rogue / Bard - but that minus -2 to charisma would hurt his people skills, and doesn't seem like a good match as a spokesman. Also lower charisma hurts the Bard's spell casting ability (and other things as well)?

Actually none of the ECL races look good for Rogue / Bards... Maybe a halfling class?

I could make the Druid a Drow, but there are absolutely no class/race synergies there. Seems like a waste.

I gave the rogue 2 levels to get evasion.

I gave the paladin 2 levels to get aura of courage. And the paladin class helps with saving throws. Don't know if the paladin is really adding much.

I seem to be stuck on a good place to put the rogue that's synergistic with a race and Bard character that I want...

On dual-wielding, I thought the advantage would be have two buffs from the 2 enchanted weapons. Is that not so useful?

Thanks for the help!

[Klorox]

Aasimar Paladin of Helm 26 / Fighter 4
Gold Dwarf Battleguard of Tempus 30
Human Monk 30
Human Druid 29 / Ranger 1
Drow Rogue 20 / Wizard 10
Tiefling Diviner 30

Not bad at all. Here are a few things I'd switch around though:

I'd change the Human Monk into a Deep Gnome Monk. Make sure you've got a 13 INT for Expertise (he won't do much damage, but won't take any either... makes a great, non-powergamy decoy). Even if you powergame his stats to make him a better fighter (3 INT) he'll still have an awesome AC.

I'd add 1 Monk level to the Druid build. It'll help a lot when you shapeshift (you'll need to be LN though).

I'd change the Drow Rogue into a Rogue 3/Diviner 27 (if that's the specialty you like).

I'd change the Tiefling Diviner into a Drow Sorcerer. Or an Aasimar Sorcerer with 1 level of Paladin.


EDIT: If you do not plan on replaying on HoF mode, I'd keep it really simple:

Aasimar Paladin (throw 2 Fighter levels in)
Dwarf Morninglord of Lathander (They're /almost/ as good tanks as Battleguards, but have much better spells)
Deep Gnome Monk
Human Druid (1 level of Monk)
Aasimar Sorcerer (or Drow)
Drow Rogue 1/Mage X

[kmonster]

You don't need a "defensive, spell and melee damage immune, "decoy" character" in IWD2 either. Like in IWD1 even summons aren't necessary in normal mode (but can be very useful).

If you play a monk don't multiclass him, his efficiency depends very much on monk levels and BAB from other classes even destroys the faster unarmed attack progression.
For party balance a half-orc might be better since a deep gnome would be 2-3 levels behind the other characters.
Both monks are equally useful for scouting, enough dex for stealth but useless for searching (but they can survive the few traps in the game). Little racial skill bonuses are useless compared to stat modifiers and skill points.

The main advantage of the battleguard is that he gets a weapon focus normal clerics can't get, if you mix in fighter levels this advantage is gone since this allows any cleric to specialize in whichever weapon he wants. So if you don't want a pure cleric (pure clerics can tank well even without fighter levels) other deities are better.

You'll have more spell power if you don't multiclass your sorcerer with paladin, if you can live without the paladin's enormous saving throw bonuses for cha another option to get the aura of courage is giving the cleric 2 paladin instead of 4 fighter levels.

Casting levels of different classes like sorcerer and bard don't stack.
Mixing rogue and paladin is allowed in 3E.

You can choose halfling instead of human for your rogue/bard. The missing extra skillpoint per level isn't that earthshaking and strength is quite useless for bards since with lingering song their songs are 3 times as powerful as in IWD1, making physical combat unnecessary.

Taking a pure wizard instead of a diviner isn't a choice which makes your party stronger, especially in a party with a sorcerer who can cast the forbidden spells.

If you decide to keep your sorcerer pure you already have a main arcane caster, you can then give the rogue level(s) (evasion is overrated) to the wizard (he can't cast high spells before he finds the scrolls anyway) and create a pure aasimar bard.

The only healing spell you'll want especially your cleric to survive the battle for is "raise dead", so before he's able to cast level 5 spells there's no need to give him special protection.
Your monk will be attacked more anyway since he has a shorter weapon range.

In IWD2 weapons are for fighting. There's no off-hand weapon which grants an extra main hand attack or 25 str like in BG2.
4 attacks with a greatsword (2d6) do far more damage than 4 attacks with a longsword (1d8) and 1 with a shortsword (1d6), especially if you add the strength modifier (gets very high easily with bull's or champion's strength).

[Aerich]

You don't need a decoy character. However, I find it fun to play with one when using a party heavy on spellcasters. It draws most of the melee attention and gives the spellcasters free rein to blast away instead of casting immobilizers and/or summons.

[Thrasher91604]

Thanks for all the advice everyone! I thought it was daunting to build a single 3E edition character in NWN. Now 6 of them at once. Aiii!

So a monk as a decoy sounds like it enables an easier style of play if you want to bombard a lot with your spellcasters? I like that idea! I'm a bit tired of creating summons and casting immobilizers/disablers. It gets tedious after a while....

So, I'll stick with the Deep Gnome monk.

OK, that means I should really make sure my spellcasters are as strong as possible if I want to emphasize that playstyle? Pure Diviner and Sorcerer it is.

I think a halfing will be better than a human for the bard/rogue with the Dex bonus. You're right, he should stay out of melee. But I do love the sneak attacks. Sneak attacking with my IWD fighter/rogue solved a couple key problems. With the strenght penalty, that option is out Carrying capacity is a pain, but once I get a bag of holding it shouldn't be an issue, I assume.

Which race is better: the Strong Heart for the bonus feat or the vanilla halfling (+1 all saves)? I'm leaning towards the vanilla.

Why is evasion overrated? It was a lifesaver for my rouge in IWD (and NWN).

So based on all the great advice here.... How about this?

Aasimar Morninglord of Lathander 14 / Paladin 2 (primary tank, buffer, secondary healer)
Deep Gnome Monk 16 (decoy, scout, secondary tank)
Human Druid 16 / Monk 1 (primary healer / summoner / secondary buffer / secondary tank - shapeshifted)
Halfling Bard 14 / Rogue 2 (party spokesman, thieving, buffing, secondary scout)
Tiefling Diviner 16 (bombadier / identifier)
Drow Sorcerer 16 (buffer / bombadier)

EDIT: I just hope I have enough melee power when needed... I think a shapeshifted Druid (with the shapeshifting mod) should work....

[kmonster]

The bard's songs become far more powerful than his fighting abilities but this doesn't mean you have to hide him in the back. His singing doesn't get interrupted when he's hit and he can be protectedd quite well with spells before battle. The bard can even keep on singing while he runs away, so he's the perfect candidate for keeping melee enemies busy chasing him if like such tactics.
Which kind of halfling you choose doesn't really matter, if you really want to go into details you could think about which feats you'll take at which level and when you have to take a feat which helps less than the "luck of heroes" feat halflings can't take.
Sneaky stealth tactics can be used by everyone (even by a shapeshifted druid), if you want your rogue/bard to be sneaky just shoot a crossbow bolt from the shadows and run away.

Evasion may be great for the role you've planned for your monk or a solo character, but for your rogue/bard or rogue/mage it's not that earthshaking. It only helps to avoid damage if he makes his save in the few occasions he will be targeted with reflex save for half damage spells. It only helps him, faster access to bard songs or high level spells helps the whole party surviving.

PS: The shapeshifting mod is unbalanced and overpowered.

[Thrasher91604]

I've started going the next level down on fleshing out these characters, thinking about attributes, skills, and feats for each at each level. Lots to think about.

But wanted to get final feedback on this party before proceeding...

Regarding the shapeshifting module, I too got that feeling when reading about it - "it's awfully over powered". But I've also read many who complained that the vanilla shapeshifting is vastly under powered, and not useful.

Soo.. what I need is something in the middle. I think I can restrain myself from exploiting the shapeshifting mod, and restrict myself to maintain a challenge. Only shifting to the lesser powered forms, only shifting to other forms in dire situations, etc... I have fewer shapeshifting options without the mod.

[kmonster]

The vanilla IWD2 shapeshifting isn't underpowered, my druid won the difficult 1:1 battles using bear shapeshifts.
A druidic shapeshift isn't supposed to fight better than a warrior with powergaming stats and equipment (some people seem to expect just this), but it even does sometimes in the vanilla game (boar form at level 5). The extra attack per round you get for most forms helps a lot.

[Thrasher91604]

Does the mod overpower every form? If not, I can just use the forms that aren't overpowered...

EDIT:

I'm thinking of removing the monk level from the Druid, so that all characters can be of the same moral alignment (good). In IWD conflicting alignments prevented use of some priest spells that are hurtful of those of different moral alignments.

[Aerich]

Yes unfortunately the shapeshifting mod overpowers every form (for the stage at which you achieve it). It's ok for HoF mode, but I'd use as little as you can in the normal mode. Maybe just enough to see what each form does. If you really don't like it, you can remove the mod.

I didn't hate the original shapeshifting, but it was so ridiculously buggy on my machine I couldn't stand it any longer. It didn't show additional shapes on level-ups as it was supposed to, and sometimes I couldn't access it. I haven't had any such problems using the mod.