Bard/Rogue

[Thrasher91604]

Hi all!

I'm planning out the characters from my other thread. Everything looked good until the Bard/Rogue. The synergies I was expecting aren't quite as good as I'd like.

My thought was that because they shared so many class skills, it would be very effective. If I take my first level as rogue, and made him a human, I'd have a ton of skill points to apply to rogue only skills, and some more for the rogue/bard common skills. Then take bard levels to get the songs and spells, and concentration and common rogue/bard skills.

This is what I ended up with as far as initial skill levels.

Bluff – 2
Diplomacy – 2
Disable Device – 4
Intimidate – 4
Open Locks – 4
Pickpocket – 2
Search - 4

It turned out pretty good for the rogue only skills. I ignored use magic device. Is that OK? I thought bard levels could bump it up maybe later, as well as pickpocket, and of course bluff and diplomacy. The rogue only skills may lag though after a bit.

When I turned to feat selections, I found most of the important bard feats unavailable to a rogue. Namely, Lingering Song, Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting. Lower priority spell focus feats were available, though (strange...). So the human bonus feat and regular first feat would go somewhat to waste (like on Luck of Heroes and maybe Mercantile or Dodge or maybe Pack Mule to make up for his low strength). I could use them for spell focus evocation and enchantment, though...

This means I don't get Lingering Song until 3rd level, Combat Casting at 6th, Subvocal at 9th (after when it's needed in the campaign). BTW, I'm assuming this Bard will be staying out of melee... Singing and spellcasting seems a lot more effective.

Another issue is a lack of focus on the same attributes. For rogue skills - intelligence is useful, for concentration bonuses constitution is useful, for people and spellcasting charisma is important. So now I have a character that needs good dex, con, int, and charisma. Wisdom should be 10 to have OK will saves, and strength should be 10 or more so he can carry something. There are no real dump stats for this MC combo.

This is my current idea for beginning stats

Strength 10
Dexterity 14
Constitution 12
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 10
Charisma 18

I'd increase constitution at level ups after this to boost his concentration checks. It would be nice to have higher dex and int for the rogue skills, though. I hope the low strength doesn't make low carrying capacity too much of a pain.

So are there better options for MCing with rogue levels? Or are they equally not so good.

For example, giving a rogue level to my wizard. I wouldn't give him any people skills, so his other rogue skills would start off better. But as he adds wiz levels, his rogue skills probably wouldn't be as good as the bard/rogue. But the pure Bard would be a better singer and spellcaster. Of course, the wizard spellcasting skills may suffer and he may lose an important spellcasting feat at the beginning (but I could gain the spell focus feats early instead).

The Bard wouldn't be as good at all the people skills, especially intimidate. His skills levels would be lower if I poached his intelligence attribute for spellcasting helping attributes like constitution and charisma.

I could give my sorcerer points in intimidate, but it'd be a cross-class skill, and his few points would probably be better spent on concentration (assumes I poach his intelligence).

Any advice appreciated!
Thanks in advance (I'm hoping)

[kmonster]

10 str is enough for a bard, even 8 would be bearable without too much trouble.
You wasted 7 points for wis. More than 3 (or maybe 4) is wasted. Will saves are rare and "hold person" spells are usually not targeted at background singers. This character will probably have less than 3 will saves during the whole game, not much considering that a -4 penalty in a d20 world effects only every 5th save. Since will saves are strong saves for bards you can get the save bonus better than OK anyway.
For this character 4 points difference in wis aren't better than the "iron will" feat which isn't even worth taking.
The stat points are really better spent for dex, con (most useful) or int (You'll feel better if you have an extra skillpoint to distribute per level although it's not necessary from the powergaming PoV).

Dodge is a must have feat, strong back won't help but getting more money for selling with mercantile background will. I never needed subvocal casting and combat casting isn't worth it either.
If your bard gets injured while casting you're doing something wrong. And even if he gets injured while casting the chance that this combat casting changes something is very low. Putting skill points in concentration is the preferable way to cast successfully while taking damage.
Most bard spells are enchantment spells so you'll benefit more from SF enchantment.

Diplomatic skills are great in the prologue but you get most dialogue options there even if you just have your drow sorc do the talking even without spending skill points since 20 cha means +5 in all diplomatic skills, your bard doesn't have to spend points for them if you don't want him to.
Don't bother with the bard's intimidating if you want to keep him as diplomat, the few dialogue checks later in the game are only a little harder and don't require putting too many skill points into them, especially since you will boost your cha with eagle's splendor anyway.

The thieving skills can be brought high enough easily. For handling locks and traps d20 rolls are used, you can retry if you fail (this won't happen very often).

The standard rogue mix-in is rogue1/(specialist) wizard since the high int helps with many thieving skills (searching, trap disarming) and grants more skillpoints than are needed. Some people are also happy if their wizard doesn't level faster than scrolls for scribing are found.

[Thrasher91604]

How about making this character a drow? A drow has all the boni to DEX, INT, and CHR. I can max out all skills from the beginning that way.

Is Use Magic Device worth putting points into?

Thanks!

[Aerich]

Skip Use Magic Device. All it does is enable the character to use items it wouldn't normally be able to use... but with some risk. As you'll have bard levels, you'll be able to use a lot of items anyway. I'd only use the skill for a pure rogue or a rogue multiclassed with a non-spellcasting class.

You'll not need more than a modified 15 or so in any dialogue skill. Don't worry too much about Intimidate. If you've got 6-10 points in it by the end of the game, that's more than enough. You can even skip that skill if you want. That gives you a lot of points still for search, disarm, and concentration. I don't use pick pockets after the Prologue.

You can milk a couple of points from Str (down to 8, or even 6 if you must) and quite a few from Wis. Int should be medium-high, with max Dex and Cha and as much Con as you can manage.

[Thrasher91604]

Should I change the race to Drow? It'll make getting those attributes higher a lot easier without dropping strength to 8 (1 fewer feat, and slow level progression though).

I was planning on levelling 1R/1B/1R/13-27B.

I'd like to get him singing ASAP, and being a Drow that would take a couple levels worth of XP longer.

For a human I was looking at:

Strength 10
Dexterity 15
Constitution 16
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 3
Charisma 18

Would this be better?

Strength 8
Dexterity 18
Constitution 15
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 3
Charisma 18

For a drow I can do this:

Strength 10
Dexterity 17
Constitution 16
Intelligence 16
Wisdom 3
Charisma 18

EDIT:

With the drow I'll be able max all the skills (except UMD) to 4.

Bluff – 4
Diplomacy – 4
Disable Device – 4
Intimidate – 4
Open Locks – 4
Pickpocket – 4
Search - 4

With the human INT of 14, the difference would be Bluff and Diplomacy being at 3.

I could drop the INT of the Drow by 2, give 1 to DEX and WIS each, and lose 4 skillpoints somewhere (maybe 2 off Bluff and Diplomacy).

Thanks!

[kmonster]

I agree with Aerich, UMD is useless.

Neither bard nor rogue is the drow's favored class so you'll get a -20 percent XP penalty. It doesn't really weaken your party from the powergaming PoV, so you can do it if you don't feel bad about it.
If you put the 4 extra stat points into +2 int and +2 cha you also have better stat modifiers which helps as much as an extra skill point in all the int- or cha- based skills.

If you plan maximizing cha at level ups because you want your bard to make his spells as hard as possible to save against it's better to to have even con and odd dex since there are items and spells which can raise dex by an odd value but none for con.

I can't say for sure whether dex or or con will be more useful, 8 str is enough.

For the levelling order I recommend 1R/5B/1R. Tymora's melody is extremely powerful and even improves thieving skills.
You also have better skills in the end if you can put all the 7 (8 if you don't forget to transfer 1 skill point from the previous bard level up) you get at the second thief level up into the bard's cross-class skills (like disrm traps).
Therefore even if you play a drow and want to delay the XP penalty go 1R/2B.

[Thrasher91604]

AH. I forgot about the favored class issue. Good catch!

Human it is!

He'll just have to be very weak in the strength department. It may make looting unlocked / untrapped objects a hassle though.

Right, I had maximized CHR mainly to help with the spell DCs, and it also helps the talking skills.

With the odd characteristic, I was planning on increasing at the first opportunity (level 4). Is that too long to wait for Dex? Maybe it's unecessary if I find a +1 Dex itermn by then. I wanted the HP benefits from a higher CON for levels 1-3.

This would be my levelling strategy:

Ability Scores When Created

Strength 8
Dexterity 17
Constitution 16
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 3
Charisma 18

Ability Score Bonuses

4th level - +1 Dexterity
8th level - +1 Charisma
12th level - +1 Charisma
16th level - +1 Dexterity
20th level - +1 Dexterity
24th level - +1 Charisma
28th level - +1 Charisma

Feats

1st level - Mercantile, Dodge
3rd level - Lingering Song
6th level - Spell Focus - Enchantment
9th level - Spell Focus - Evocation
12th level - Spell Focus - Enchantment
15th level - Spell Penetration
18th level – Spell Focus: Evocation
21st level – Spell Focus: Necromancy
24th level – Spell Focus: Necromancy
27th level - Spell Penetration
30th level – Improved Initiative



Thanks!

[kmonster]

Improved initiative doesn't work in IWD2. Dexterity won't help this character in HoF mode (monsters will hit anyway and the songs are too powerful for interrupting with ranged attacks) so I'd rethink the stat raises at level 16 and 20 in HoF mode. I'd consider taking the expertise feat at level 6 or 9 since a -5 attack penalty doesn't hurt if you don't attack.

[Thrasher91604]

Yes, I've heard about improved inititative not working for melee. But then I also read that it does increase spellcasting time by 1, which was my intent.

I was thinking that the dex increase would help with thief skills and missile weapons. If adding to spell DCs by increasing charisma would be better, pleas let me know.

Thanks!

[kmonster]

Improved iniative doesn't work for spellcasting either.
In HoF mode cha is definitely more useful than dex, an increased chance for doing 10 ranged damage at and 800 HP monster isn't as useful as an increased chance to disable it with a spell, especially since your bard will be always more useful singing than shooting once he's learned a few songs. In HoF mode doesn't require more thieving skills than normal mode. Locks and traps stay the same, only pickpocketing is harder. (But the only person worth pickpocketing could be pickpocketed successfully by my HoF druid who spent only 1 skillpoint.)

I don't think this bard will ever benefit from SF necromancy, but there's no need to think that far ahead. Take the expertise feat at level 6 or 9, it grants +5 permanent AC without disadvantage once physical combat becomes obsolete.

[Thrasher91604]

My idea for necromancy was wail of the banshee he gets at level 26. Rather late, but it looks like I'll have room for the feats. Evocation was for chromatic orb mainly. Thereas a couple highere lvel bard spells but they are hard to use. I was also thinking transmutation, instead, but that would only be for one spell - slow.

Expertise sounds like a good idea. I was also thinking weapon finesse, but since he will stay out of melee whenever possible, then perhaps it is less useful. I think focussing on spellcasting feats will serve him better in the long run. Do you?

Thanks!

[Klorox]

I don't think you need dodge with a character that should never see combat.

Make him a Tiefling or Halfling, and boost INT.

[kmonster]

You can only avoid attacking, you can't avoid getting attacked. Therefore defensive combat skills do help.

Weapon finesse isn't worth taking.

This character needs to be level 28 to cast level 8 spells, he won't reach it before near the end of HoF mode unless you level-squat.
HoF monsters get an enormous fortitude save bonus, so the +4 DC from GSF might not be enough to let the HoF monsters fail a save with a rolled 2.
Will saves aren't boosted that much, so the other level 8 spell, mass dominate has a higher success chance. Powerword: Blind doesn't even allow a save.
But the other feats you can take late won't help much either, so don't bother too much.

[Thrasher91604]

I looked at both halflings and teiflings for this character.

Halflings benefits seemed OK, mainly the saving throw bonus. This character won't be sneaking so the move silently bonus goes to waste. They lose strength for a bonus to dexterity, same amount, so that's a wash. The bonus to fear saves is nice. Whereas the humans get the extra skill points (and feat). Since this character will be short of skill points, I thought a human would be better.

A Tiefling would probably work, the +2 to both dex and int (with a minus to charisma) is still a plus 2 total. A +2 to intelligence will give an extra skillpoint per level, equivalent to a human's extra skillpoiint bonus. The level adjustment was my miain concern. This character needs to level as fast as possible to maintain the skills and get more spells and songs. The +2 to bluff is just 2 skillpoints, so a human's extra skill points at the start catch up immediately. The elemental reistances are nice. So it looked like in the end trading elemental resitances for faster levelling and one extra feat (the blindness once a day, didn't seem like a big thing). I think the faster levelling will help the most (except of course at the end if I ever reach it).

@kmonster: yes the other feat choices at that point didn't seem that great, so I had to fill with something. Too bad about the fortitude saves being so hard to beat on HoF.Hopefully, I'll get lucky.

[Klorox]

A Tiefling would probably work, the +2 to both dex and int (with a minus to charisma) is still a plus 2 total. A +2 to intelligence will give an extra skillpoint per level, equivalent to a human's extra skillpoiint bonus. The level adjustment was my miain concern. This character needs to level as fast as possible to maintain the skills and get more spells and songs. The +2 to bluff is just 2 skillpoints, so a human's extra skill points at the start catch up immediately. The elemental reistances are nice. So it looked like in the end trading elemental resitances for faster levelling and one extra feat (the blindness once a day, didn't seem like a big thing). I think the faster levelling will help the most (except of course at the end if I ever reach it).

I was going to reply that you probably don't need as many skills as you think you do, but you're not maxing out INT. The character is decent.

Remember, a Drow Rogue 1/Wizard X is a good enough thief to handle all the locks, traps, pickpocketing and identifying when he maxes out INT and improves it every chance he gets.

[Thrasher91604]

Yeah, perhaps that would have been another route.

I want this character to have a decent charisma too for all the talking skills. And intimidate isn't a bard class skill, so I thought the rogue level witht hte bard would help with that. Adding decent charisma to a drow rogue 1/ wizard would have hurt his other abilities too much.