Good evil build?

[Henrynator]

Heya guys! First post!

So, I am currently playing through the game a chaotic (now neutral) good (pure) ranger, bringing my two glowing, flashy, expensive swords down on peoples heads, and I am almost finished the game (just finish alliances, gonna go reform sword). Anyways, with preparation for a horrible ending, I wanted to start thinking about my evil character. Basically, after playing through, I want an unstoppable killing machine that would work well with those bandit quests etc. I was thinking dwarf barbarian, <insert race> cleric, Sun Elf <magic-wasit> or maybe something else.

Sorry about any "Wall of Text " problems, but yeah, opinions are welcome. I am also starting to look at prestige classes, but I am not one for minor class changes. Don't ask way, my older brother drilled into me in Baulders Gate that you can be either "an awesome thief" or a "c*** thief and c*** mage".

Thanks in advance!
-Henry

[Lleliwyn]

Well, without ever having played an evil character in my life, I can tell you this: You can be a manipulative evil character, or a "does it for the thrill of hurting people" evil character.

For the first, you could build a evil drow character (either rogue or wizard is the optimum build, but feel free to experiment).

For the second, you could choose an evil half-orc barbarian (outside of NwN1 expansions I've never seen them as anything but).

Just play around- if you don't like the character, you can go make a new one.

[Claudius]

I'm playing with a frenzied berserker assassin and I am playing him as more a killer than greedy or power hungry. He just loves battle. He is not totally evil and doesn't kill random people or shake them down for cash. In fact he does some good deads. But what he really likes is a fight. Kind of like Khelgar only with a less good twist since he's an assassin. I posted my build in another thread about strength based rogue's if you want to have a look it is a few down.

[Scottg]

Heya guys! First post!

So, I am currently playing through the game a chaotic (now neutral) good (pure) ranger, bringing my two glowing, flashy, expensive swords down on peoples heads, and I am almost finished the game (just finish alliances, gonna go reform sword). Anyways, with preparation for a horrible ending, I wanted to start thinking about my evil character. Basically, after playing through, I want an unstoppable killing machine that would work well with those bandit quests etc. I was thinking dwarf barbarian, <insert race> cleric, Sun Elf <magic-wasit> or maybe something else.

Sorry about any "Wall of Text " problems, but yeah, opinions are welcome. I am also starting to look at prestige classes, but I am not one for minor class changes. Don't ask way, my older brother drilled into me in Baulders Gate that you can be either "an awesome thief" or a "c*** thief and c*** mage".

Thanks in advance!
-Henry

If you want another melee build then consider my "Hitman" build:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/never ... 98338.html

It will provide both very high melee multi-opponent and the occasional stealth-type assassination maneuvers.

Though I haven't played Claudius's suggestion, at least technically I have a few problems with it (though it does seem interesting):

1. Assassin's have a Medium BAB, and that doesn't "pair" well with Power Attack's penalty (which is the biggest reason for the Frenzied Berserker class).

2. Assassin's Death Attack Paralysis feature is dependent on Assassin level AND Intelligence modifiers.. Basically this means that Wizards are best for multi-classing to an Assassin (..and using true strike to compensate for the pitiful BAB). Even then though, the save probably won't be that great on the Paralysis function. That leaves HiPS as the sole redeeming quality of an Assassin - and that you can get with one level of Shadow Dancer.

My primary recommendation is NOT for a melee character at all this time, rather try a Sorcerer or Wizard build with a mix of classes (but strong emphasis on the use of Magic). Its very good class for the OC because you can restore your spells (resting) without serious problems in most of the game.

Heck, there is even an excellent "maniacal" voice for a power hungry magic user.:mischief: (..my favorite is actually the "sociopath" for an evil character.)

Consider something along the lines of:

3 levels of Rogue
7 levels of Wizard
10 levels of Arcane Trickster

OR (if you have MOTB installed):

3 levels of Rogue
5 levels of Wizard
3 levels of Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep (ASoC)*
9 levels of Arcane Trickster

*because of the feat requirements with ASoC, plan your character VERY carefully if you choose this class combination.

Remember to use your Scribe Scroll ability for lower level spells, particularly Mage Armor and Improved Mage Armor.

Empower Spell is the most important feat you can get for this character. This is why 3 levels of ASoC can be so beneficial (..with Improved Empower Spell).

Almost as important will be the "spell penetration" feats - all of them. (..and actually they should be chosen before selecting Empower Spell unless you are going for an early ASoC build).

Your first feat selection at character creation however should be: Spell Casting Prodigy.

Additionally Extended Spell and Persistent Spell are also nice feats latter in the game.

With Empowered "Missile Storms" you can clean up VERY quickly, and will be almost untouchable with a decent Dexterity and higher class level Mirror Image and Displacement.

The "Rogue-esq" inclusion provides a LOT more skills and overall versatility - particularly hiding and then firing off your spells.

The character should have a starting Intelligence of at LEAST 18 and preferably 19 or 20. Furthermore Intelligence should be the only attribute increased as you increase in level. A fairly high starting dexterity would also be nice (say 16+).

My preference is for a Drow.. it does have 2 levels of penalty though, but if you want a minor cheat you could always create the character in Vordan's Hero Creator, level up one or 2 levels and then export the character and then start at the beginning of the OC with that exported character. Note that the Drow has the Wizard as its favored class - allowing you the freedom to choose when to select either a Rogue or Wizard as your character develops ..without xp penalties.

Considering the bonus to skills at 1st level for the Rogue, I'd probably select that as my first class and then fill-in with 7 levels of Wizard and follow-up again with the Rogue. Withe MOTB installed I'd still start with one level or Rogue, then 5 levels of Wizard, then 3 levels of ASoC, and follow-up again with the Rogue. (..obviously after those 2 follow-up levels of Rogue - switch to Arcane Trickster to finish off the build.)

Do *NOT* specialize in particular school of magic for the additional spells per day (..and of course do not allow the computer to pick the skills for you).

[Claudius]

The Fighter14/Assassin8/Zerker5/Rogue3 still has a 40 AB (8 strength, 4 epic weapon Specialization, 27 BAB, 1 epic prowess) without any items. I don't think there is too much your not hitting in PVM. Plus from HIPS I think you get a bonus to hit. Also you have expose weakness. Finally you have a rogue skillset and your AB and damage will far outstrip neeshka (dunno about MoTB rogue I haven't played through there yet). Improved Power attack should be used against low ac opponents and sneak attack immunes. Or to cut through DR.

Also a wizard assassin will probably be a buffed no save caster with a 19 in intelligence and 26 dex to get PTWF. My build has an 18 in intelligence so same Death attack DC.

The only way to get hips is to lose an AB shadowdancer1 or two Assassin8. The problem with shadowdancer is that you have HIPS but no sneak attack dice...not that HIPS isn't still insanely good without sneak. Another problem is that you have to take dodge and mobility. You can modify my build and lose the rage feats to get dodge, mobility and shadowdancer1 instead of Assassin 8.

My build is not really the most powerful build but I just find it to fit my concept of what I want in a character. Skills, sneaky, and brutal warrior.

[Scottg]

The Fighter14/Assassin8/Zerker5/Rogue3 still has a 40 AB (8 strength, 4 epic weapon Specialization, 27 BAB, 1 epic prowess) without any items. I don't think there is too much your not hitting in PVM. Plus from HIPS I think you get a bonus to hit. Also you have expose weakness. Finally you have a rogue skillset and your AB and damage will far outstrip neeshka (dunno about MoTB rogue I haven't played through there yet). Improved Power attack should be used against low ac opponents and sneak attack immunes. Or to cut through DR.

Also a wizard assassin will probably be a buffed no save caster with a 19 in intelligence and 26 dex to get PTWF. My build has an 18 in intelligence so same Death attack DC.

The only way to get hips is to lose an AB shadowdancer1 or two Assassin8. The problem with shadowdancer is that you have HIPS but no sneak attack dice...not that HIPS isn't still insanely good without sneak. Another problem is that you have to take dodge and mobility. You can modify my build and lose the rage feats to get dodge, mobility and shadowdancer1 instead of Assassin 8.

My build is not really the most powerful build but I just find it to fit my concept of what I want in a character. Skills, sneaky, and brutal warrior.

I see, basically a fighter with some specialty - no prob.s with that. (In fact a better version of a Blackguard.)

I was thinking for some reason that he was limiting himself to the OC ..and well, only 20 levels at best to work with doesn't leave much room for BAB for most of the game.

How is the paralysis working out in-game? My thought was that lower level creatures would get paralyzed with 8 levels of Assassin, but that its a fairly moot point with a cleave based character, and the tougher opponents wouldn't get paralyzed. Right? Wrong? Something in-between?

[Claudius]

I usually do not micro-manage the party enough to gain surprise. You cannot possibly score paralysis unless they are unaware of an enemy. The problem with building a high DC death attack character (which might be a blackguard for the save debuff aura) is then you lose str or dex (weapon finesse) and you may have a better DC but then you may not hit even.

One thing to realize is that no matter how bad your DC if they roll a one they are toast.

[Scottg]

I should also add to the build that I recommended..

With the exception of the 3 levels of Rogue - its a pure wizard and it plays like one for most of the game.

That still nets you 9th level spells, basically toping out as a level 17 purist Wizard. You loose out on two additional feats relative to a purist Wizard. Thats pretty much it.

What you gain is a *LOT* of versatility with skills, particularly the "Stealth" feature. But even for a Wizard its very handy for also Scouting for traps to avoid and also improving your ability to target concealed opponents.

If you have 3 levels of ASoC - then you also gain quite a bit with Improved Empower Spell. (In fact I'd recommend this for ANY purist Wizard build.)

So despite there being a multitude of classes apparent, for the most part its just a 17th level Wizard with 3 levels of Rogue.

Note that in the OC I believe (but am not certain) you could forgo 3 levels of Rogue and instead utilize the prestige class Shadow Thief of Amn. 3 levels of it should provide your required 2d6 of sneak attack damage needed for the Arcane Trickster. I don't know IF it will be soon enough in the build for your 10 or 9 levels of Arcane Trickster though.

[Scottg]

I usually do not micro-manage the party enough to gain surprise. You cannot possibly score paralysis unless they are unaware of an enemy. The problem with building a high DC death attack character (which might be a blackguard for the save debuff aura) is then you lose str or dex (weapon finesse) and you may have a better DC but then you may not hit even.

One thing to realize is that no matter how bad your DC if they roll a one they are toast.

Thats right - they have to not be in combat mode.

I really don't see the appeal of the Assassin UNLESS you need a 4th class slot open. For the most part I don't buy into the extra expenditure of Dodge and Mobility - any HiPS character that actually wants to use it almost certainly should have Spring Attack ..and that of course requires Dodge and Mobility. (..and that I've tested extensively - only a very high tumble overcomes the attack of opportunity problem needed for HiPS to work properly.)

Wait.. Perhaps if you want a certain race, don't want to interleave base classes and can't put up with a 20% xp loss - then yeah, but thats a lot of conditions.

Hmm, I *want* the Assassin to work - I'm just not seeing it.

EDIT: Considering that an Assassin still needs 2d6 of sneak attack to even become an assassin - it appears that even my first condition is limited to combinations with either Blackguard or Shadow Thief of Amn.

Note that a fairly high charisma based Warlock with Hideous Blow and an appropriate paralyzing Invocation can perform a lot better than any Assassin (works on sneak attack immune characters) - and with unlimited Invisibility spells (Walk Unseen) is as good and in some cases better than a HiPS character.