ups! Made a slight mistake on this one: Gothmog is actually the name of even another creature back in the days long forgotten.
first appearance:
Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, General of Angband back in the 2nd age I think with Morgoth himself ruling in Angband (Gothmog was a big badass slaying many a hero...)
second appearance:
as mentioned before in the 3rd age troll-king and chief of Minas Morgul
(various sources including some of Christopher Tolkien's)
Liches and mase of disruption?
-
Elenias Nal'nair
- Posts: 158
- Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 11:00 pm
- Location: Berlin, Germany
- Contact:
Now THIS is a topic I can get into....
While it continues to be off the mark for a BG2 discussion, I count myself extemely knowlegeable on the lore of Endor (Middle Earth). My sources are from the books themselves, and from the liscensed RPG by Iron Crown Enterprises (which has recently closed it's doors forever, regretfully....)
The list of the names of the ringwraiths is correct, I just want to add that the Witch King's orignal and true name is Er-Murazor. He was the second son of one of the Kings of Numenor in the second age, which makes him a blood relative of Elendil, Isildur, and ultimately Aragorn. He "defected" to Sauron because he was embittered that he would not ever be King. he existed for a total of over 4,500 years terrorizing Endor, through 2 ages.
Adunaphel and Akhorahil were the other 2 Numenorean Nazgul.
Actaully, ALL of the Nazgul existed for about the same amount of time, since Sauron gave them all their rings circa 2000 S.E. No new ones were "appointed" since none of these ever were destroyed, until a certain fateful day on the Pelennor Fields (shield your eyes, O Foul, it would be a painful revelation) by the hand of Eowyn, and a mere Hobbit....
There are a number of "lesser ringwraiths" that appeared through the years, because Sauron continued to make "lesser" rings of power. Keep in mind that magic items (especially the artifacts) in Middle Earth are VASTLY more powerful that anything and AD&D player (or world) has ever DREAMED of.....Foul's attempt to give AD&D stats to the One is a good start, but much is lost in the translation....the lesser rings, when awarded to a favored servant, would eventually transform the lucky servant into a "ring wight", which was very powerful but not truly immortal.
The first Gothmog was a true Balrog, the most powerful of them, the worst fire demon ever seen. (If you know anything of the Balrog of Moria, imagine one about 5 times more powerful). He was killed in SINGLE COMBAT by Ecthelion of the fountain, an elven hero of Gondolin, who fell at the same time. This was in the first Age.
The second Gothmog was a half-troll (pertorog), bred by Sauron, and probably the most bad-ass pure fighter to walk Endor in the 3rd age. It was he who assumed command of the army after (ahem) a certain Nazgul lord was killed......
I have turned into a wind-bag....if anyone wants to know anything at all about Middle Earth, let me know....
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
While it continues to be off the mark for a BG2 discussion, I count myself extemely knowlegeable on the lore of Endor (Middle Earth). My sources are from the books themselves, and from the liscensed RPG by Iron Crown Enterprises (which has recently closed it's doors forever, regretfully....)
The list of the names of the ringwraiths is correct, I just want to add that the Witch King's orignal and true name is Er-Murazor. He was the second son of one of the Kings of Numenor in the second age, which makes him a blood relative of Elendil, Isildur, and ultimately Aragorn. He "defected" to Sauron because he was embittered that he would not ever be King. he existed for a total of over 4,500 years terrorizing Endor, through 2 ages.
Adunaphel and Akhorahil were the other 2 Numenorean Nazgul.
Actaully, ALL of the Nazgul existed for about the same amount of time, since Sauron gave them all their rings circa 2000 S.E. No new ones were "appointed" since none of these ever were destroyed, until a certain fateful day on the Pelennor Fields (shield your eyes, O Foul, it would be a painful revelation) by the hand of Eowyn, and a mere Hobbit....
There are a number of "lesser ringwraiths" that appeared through the years, because Sauron continued to make "lesser" rings of power. Keep in mind that magic items (especially the artifacts) in Middle Earth are VASTLY more powerful that anything and AD&D player (or world) has ever DREAMED of.....Foul's attempt to give AD&D stats to the One is a good start, but much is lost in the translation....the lesser rings, when awarded to a favored servant, would eventually transform the lucky servant into a "ring wight", which was very powerful but not truly immortal.
The first Gothmog was a true Balrog, the most powerful of them, the worst fire demon ever seen. (If you know anything of the Balrog of Moria, imagine one about 5 times more powerful). He was killed in SINGLE COMBAT by Ecthelion of the fountain, an elven hero of Gondolin, who fell at the same time. This was in the first Age.
The second Gothmog was a half-troll (pertorog), bred by Sauron, and probably the most bad-ass pure fighter to walk Endor in the 3rd age. It was he who assumed command of the army after (ahem) a certain Nazgul lord was killed......
I have turned into a wind-bag....if anyone wants to know anything at all about Middle Earth, let me know....
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
By the way, the seven Dwarven rings never worked as Sauron expected. He wanted to control the dwarves as he did the men, but the rings' effects were to make the Dwarven Kings even more greedy for wealth than the typical dwarf is already, and it made them REALLY suspicious and "racist" towards anyone that was not a dwarf. (Imagine Korgan being the king of the Dwarves.) This led to much of the emnity between the elves and the dwarves, because Durin I (King of Moria) refused to allow the elves of Eregion safe passage thru Moria when their kingdom was destroyed by Sauron (although many other events back into the firtst age fed the fires of that hatred as well....)
Sauron demanded the return of the 7 rings when he realized that he could not exert his will on the Dwarf Kings....they refused, and Sauron swore an oath that he would hunt them down and destroy each and every king and kingdom, to take back the rings. He accomplished this in the end, sucessfully recovering all seven rings (the last in 2941 third age, the year that the story in "The Hobbit" occurred.) None of the rings was ever actually "devoured" by a dragon, although dragons did destroy many Dwarf-holds and led to the ultimate achievement of Sauron's goal....
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
Sauron demanded the return of the 7 rings when he realized that he could not exert his will on the Dwarf Kings....they refused, and Sauron swore an oath that he would hunt them down and destroy each and every king and kingdom, to take back the rings. He accomplished this in the end, sucessfully recovering all seven rings (the last in 2941 third age, the year that the story in "The Hobbit" occurred.) None of the rings was ever actually "devoured" by a dragon, although dragons did destroy many Dwarf-holds and led to the ultimate achievement of Sauron's goal....
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
Where did you get that list of the Nine? I don't remember reading that in LotR, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Lost Tales, Lay of Beleriand, the Lost Road, the Tolkien Biography or The Shaping of Middle Earth. Now I know that's not everything, but it's pretty comprehensive.
I'm also very skeptical about this female Nazghul, although Adunaphel is indeed a female Numenorean name, probably meaning 'Daughter of the West', so I'd love to know where that comes from.
A few comments on the One Ring's powers.
- doesn't so much cause invisibility as to move the individual partly into the ethereal plane. (as per encounter w. Nazghul on Weathertop). That's probably a side effect of individual's who cannot control its power and who don't already have a place on that plane.
- Mental domination *is* limited. It's limited by the power of the individual; in D&D terms it would be dependent partly on class and partly on Wis, Int & Cha probably.
- There's nothing to suggest that the ring makes you harder to hit (apart from Invis) or magic resistant, nor that it adds to spell power as such. The ring was basically one of control, but with Sauron having 20+in Wis, Int & Cha, plus an obscenely high level, that would be quite powerful enough.
Phil
I'm also very skeptical about this female Nazghul, although Adunaphel is indeed a female Numenorean name, probably meaning 'Daughter of the West', so I'd love to know where that comes from.
A few comments on the One Ring's powers.
- doesn't so much cause invisibility as to move the individual partly into the ethereal plane. (as per encounter w. Nazghul on Weathertop). That's probably a side effect of individual's who cannot control its power and who don't already have a place on that plane.
- Mental domination *is* limited. It's limited by the power of the individual; in D&D terms it would be dependent partly on class and partly on Wis, Int & Cha probably.
- There's nothing to suggest that the ring makes you harder to hit (apart from Invis) or magic resistant, nor that it adds to spell power as such. The ring was basically one of control, but with Sauron having 20+in Wis, Int & Cha, plus an obscenely high level, that would be quite powerful enough.
Phil
geh4th
Glad you like the thread. Some comments: I don't have the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales handy- but every history of the the 7 using these sources tells of 4 of them being destroyed by dragon fire in the second age. Sauron recaptures 2 of the remaining 3 by the end of the second age. The last ring is taken from Thrain III by Sauron personally.
I think Gothmog is on of several names Tolkien accidently used more than once. Fingolfin is another that comes to mind.
Glad you like the thread. Some comments: I don't have the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales handy- but every history of the the 7 using these sources tells of 4 of them being destroyed by dragon fire in the second age. Sauron recaptures 2 of the remaining 3 by the end of the second age. The last ring is taken from Thrain III by Sauron personally.
I think Gothmog is on of several names Tolkien accidently used more than once. Fingolfin is another that comes to mind.
Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time
Well, the Dwarven rings' fate may be the result of contradicting sources. It would take some research to find out what happened to each of them.
Tolkein intentionally used Gothmog twice; Sauron was inspired by the awesome power and the incredibly ugly visage of the Troll Gothmog, that he named him after the original (whom he had known in the first age.)
There was not two "major" Elves named Fingolfin, but you are close....Glorfindel is used twice, the first is another captain of Gondolin, the second is the one that met the Fellowship just before reaching rivendell, when they were running from the nine. Both were Noldo lords and very powerful.
On the One Ring, the invisibility power was actually because the ring drew the wearer into the wraith-world, which would be the negative material plane in AD&D. The invisibility remains unbroken even in combat, so long as the ring is worn. THe only thing that could see the wearer is fellow negative material creatures, who could see the wearer brightly standing out. Otherwise, I doubt any type of detection spells would work, because of the ring's awesome power. This would be the only ability an untrained user would have access to, other than the unnatural prolongation of the bearer's life (it need not be worn) until he eventually becomes a gollum-creature, and ultimately a wraith.
Other abilities are indeed a measure of the wearer, but would take a VERY long time and a great deal of personal power to master (consider the wearer to have to win a will contest with the ring, which possesses a will nearly equivalent to Sauron. A Maia could do it, like Gandalf or Saruman, but not a mere mortal. Consider Isildur for an example.) It would make all spells castable at any target the wearer can see, regardless of range, even thru a scrying device; would VASTLY increase the spell power of the wearer (8 spells per level might be a good guess, but also spell durations and area of effects massively increased...) and then there is the command powers, which would be akin to having a REALLY high charisma (beyond 25) with the addition of many mind controlling powers and domination effects. This power is far more effective agains evil creatures than good ones, it is a function of control, not so much attack.
Had Sauron recovered the one, there was nobody left in Endor capable of standing agains him.
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
Tolkein intentionally used Gothmog twice; Sauron was inspired by the awesome power and the incredibly ugly visage of the Troll Gothmog, that he named him after the original (whom he had known in the first age.)
There was not two "major" Elves named Fingolfin, but you are close....Glorfindel is used twice, the first is another captain of Gondolin, the second is the one that met the Fellowship just before reaching rivendell, when they were running from the nine. Both were Noldo lords and very powerful.
On the One Ring, the invisibility power was actually because the ring drew the wearer into the wraith-world, which would be the negative material plane in AD&D. The invisibility remains unbroken even in combat, so long as the ring is worn. THe only thing that could see the wearer is fellow negative material creatures, who could see the wearer brightly standing out. Otherwise, I doubt any type of detection spells would work, because of the ring's awesome power. This would be the only ability an untrained user would have access to, other than the unnatural prolongation of the bearer's life (it need not be worn) until he eventually becomes a gollum-creature, and ultimately a wraith.
Other abilities are indeed a measure of the wearer, but would take a VERY long time and a great deal of personal power to master (consider the wearer to have to win a will contest with the ring, which possesses a will nearly equivalent to Sauron. A Maia could do it, like Gandalf or Saruman, but not a mere mortal. Consider Isildur for an example.) It would make all spells castable at any target the wearer can see, regardless of range, even thru a scrying device; would VASTLY increase the spell power of the wearer (8 spells per level might be a good guess, but also spell durations and area of effects massively increased...) and then there is the command powers, which would be akin to having a REALLY high charisma (beyond 25) with the addition of many mind controlling powers and domination effects. This power is far more effective agains evil creatures than good ones, it is a function of control, not so much attack.
Had Sauron recovered the one, there was nobody left in Endor capable of standing agains him.
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
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FoulDwimmerlaik
- Posts: 560
- Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 11:00 pm
- Location: GWM IN SEARCH OF "FULFILLMENT" &
- Contact:
looks like some valuable additions to the thread since last I checked....
ge4th (sp?)- right about the wraiths, our original discussion was only about what was known by the storyline (i.e. only w/in LoTR), buy your information is impressive. I rarely find (even on sites like this) anyone with a Tolkien lore rating as high as mine (or eerily quick access to the reference materials....)
For those of you who haven't been able to follow all of the references in this thread (if you've only read LoTR, Hobbit, etc) do yourself a favor, before you go home tonight, go to a good bookstore and buy AT LEAST the Silmarillion, and preferably a few of the 10plus books assembled by his son. You'll find the stories absolutely incredible and the language beautiful.
---___----
The leaves were long,
the grass was green,
the hemlock-umbels tall and fair.
And in the glade a light was seen,
of stars in shadow shimmering,
Tinuviel was dancing there,
to music of a pipe unseen,
and light of stars was in her hair
and in her raiment glimmering.
ge4th (sp?)- right about the wraiths, our original discussion was only about what was known by the storyline (i.e. only w/in LoTR), buy your information is impressive. I rarely find (even on sites like this) anyone with a Tolkien lore rating as high as mine (or eerily quick access to the reference materials....)
For those of you who haven't been able to follow all of the references in this thread (if you've only read LoTR, Hobbit, etc) do yourself a favor, before you go home tonight, go to a good bookstore and buy AT LEAST the Silmarillion, and preferably a few of the 10plus books assembled by his son. You'll find the stories absolutely incredible and the language beautiful.
---___----
The leaves were long,
the grass was green,
the hemlock-umbels tall and fair.
And in the glade a light was seen,
of stars in shadow shimmering,
Tinuviel was dancing there,
to music of a pipe unseen,
and light of stars was in her hair
and in her raiment glimmering.
What? Haven't you heard? God is dead! -FWN
Without a doubt. The Lay of Luthien and the story of Turin Turambar are two of the greatest mythological stories ever - incredible that they were written in the 20th century.Originally posted by FoulDwimmerlaik:
For those of you who haven't been able to follow all of the references in this thread (if you've only read LoTR, Hobbit, etc) do yourself a favor, before you go home tonight, go to a good bookstore and buy AT LEAST the Silmarillion
Also buy Unfinished Tales. Well, go on, do it!
I would suggest that you read The Hobbit again just before reading the Lord of the Rings trilogy. It is really a prologue to the bigger story.
The other books mentioned, such as the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, are more historical and mythological stories that enrich the world of Middle Earth. Personally, I find the first and second ages of Middle Earth to be FAR more fascinating than the third. THESE are what elves truly are supposed to be like, not the "Santa's helper" elves of D&D.
A warning, though.....the Silmarillion is not "easy reading". It is written in a very "biblical" way, especially in the beginning of the book. However, it is easily worth the effort.
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
The other books mentioned, such as the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, are more historical and mythological stories that enrich the world of Middle Earth. Personally, I find the first and second ages of Middle Earth to be FAR more fascinating than the third. THESE are what elves truly are supposed to be like, not the "Santa's helper" elves of D&D.
A warning, though.....the Silmarillion is not "easy reading". It is written in a very "biblical" way, especially in the beginning of the book. However, it is easily worth the effort.
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
thanks, geh4th. i think that i will do that, actually. i owned the trilogy for a long long time, and waited for the right moment to start it, and regrettably i moved on to other things. but my primary fascination was actually always with elves, and the whole elven race was the reason i got interested in d&d way back when, although i had almost forgotten that. i will remember your suggestion on my next trip to amazon...whoops, i'm already there. hehe
You are welcome. Tolkein is the ORIGINAL fantasy world for most of us.
All I ask is that you try to read through the first book (Fellowship of the Ring) before the first movie comes out later this year. While the trailer for the movie looks spectacular, it is IMO always better to have read the book BEFORE seeing a movie made from it.
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
All I ask is that you try to read through the first book (Fellowship of the Ring) before the first movie comes out later this year. While the trailer for the movie looks spectacular, it is IMO always better to have read the book BEFORE seeing a movie made from it.
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
Movie info:
From what I understand, the new LotR movie trilogy is planned for release one per year, starting this Christmas with the Fellowship of the Ring. Each release will be at Christmas.
This is a live action movie, not animated (or partially animated like the previous Lord of the Rings movie.) I know that Elijah Woods is one of the stars (playing Frodo Baggins, I am guessing) and John Rhys Davies is in it. Beyond that, I do not know many more details. The special effects and costuming look awesome so far.
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
From what I understand, the new LotR movie trilogy is planned for release one per year, starting this Christmas with the Fellowship of the Ring. Each release will be at Christmas.
This is a live action movie, not animated (or partially animated like the previous Lord of the Rings movie.) I know that Elijah Woods is one of the stars (playing Frodo Baggins, I am guessing) and John Rhys Davies is in it. Beyond that, I do not know many more details. The special effects and costuming look awesome so far.
------------------
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
"If you prefer, you could say EXPERT treasure hunter!"
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
--Gandalf the Grey, the Hobbit
Yep. Spot on. There are lots of other sites out there too.
Looks like the 'short' characters are going to be played by 'not too short' actors in close up and body doubles at a distance. Hmm... could be tricky.
I'm sure CGI will rear its head to display large numbers of orcs.
Looks like the 'short' characters are going to be played by 'not too short' actors in close up and body doubles at a distance. Hmm... could be tricky.
I'm sure CGI will rear its head to display large numbers of orcs.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Mhr'djynn, I envy your opportunity to read the trilogy for the first time. I first read it 15 years ago, and altough I enjoy the occasional re-read there is nothing like the first time (no, not THAT first time Gruntboy.) A word of advice: get it done prior to the movie so that you can get the full effect without having your imagination colored by the liberties the film is likely to take with the story.
Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time
Ho ho.
I saw the cr*ppy cartoon ages ago. But I first read the trilogy only last year. Glad I waited till I was older to fully appreciate it
I saw the cr*ppy cartoon ages ago. But I first read the trilogy only last year. Glad I waited till I was older to fully appreciate it
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]