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Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 11:25 am
by humanflyz
@HighLordDave:
Humans in Tolkien books are generally viewed by other races such as Elves and Dwarves to be weak of heart and spirit. The part in the Silmarillion about Numenore especially shows this. However, Tolkien also tried to show that not all humans are like this. He used Elendil to show that humans can be strong. There's also other humans such as Beren and Turin that are good humans. Also, the other species do not understand men totally. Illuvatar said that the fate of men is a to seek out the world he lives in and pursue knowledge endlessly. Illuvatar knew that men will be corrupt and evil, but he says everything that ever happened in Middle-Earth will in someway glorify Illuvatar's name and revealed in the Last Theme Of Illuvatar at the end of time.
Another point Tolkien makes is that the Wise cannot see everything. Gandalf repeats this over and over again in the book. So even though Elrond is counted as one of the wisest in Middle-Earth, he cannot really be sure that Middle-Earth will be in peace if he kills Isildur and destroys the Ring of Power. The issue of free-will is also present in the Silmarillion. The Valar could have detained Feanor in Valinor and kept the Silmarills, and the Golden Age of Valinor will continue endlessly, there would be no battle or fighting in Middle-Earth ever. Then why did the Valar still let Feanor go, because the Valar allowed the Elves to come to Valinor on their own free will, so the Valar will also let the Elves depart on their own free will.
Elrond also know that men must act on their own free will. Whatever he does will not make a difference because Illuvatar destined it to be so. Men will always be easily corrupted, but a minority of them will not be, but that is not to say that the minority is perfect. In the end, everything that ever happened will somehow glorify Illuvatar.
What I am basically trying to say is, even though the Elves are wiser, stronger, and more pure of heart, they themselves cannot foresee everything. They are not sure about the fate of men and their part in the Music Of Ainur(the song that created Middle-Earth and all its history). Therefore, they try not to interfere in human affairs because no one besides Illuvatar know humans one hundred percent. In the book, Elrond's attitude is not that resentful toward humans. Sure, he acknowledges that humans are frail in both body and mind, but not to the extent of actually blaming them for the Rise of Sauron, as in the movie.
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 11:35 am
by GandalfgalTTV
About the dwarven rings:
4 where swallowed by dragons and the eternal fire that raged within them destroyed them.
3 where reclaimed by Sauron.
The 3 elven rings:
Sauron could corrupt al what was made with them but only with the One, so when the One was lost they where once again used. During the time Sauron had the One the rings where hidden from him. When they are not used they cannot be corrupted.
The One:
It is not just a ring, it is a sentient being that has a severe influence on those around it. It is a part of Sauron and wants to be with him. So when Sauron was destroyed nobody let it dissapear, it wanted to dissapear, to avoid destruction once it was known that it would corrupt all of power that used it, and to return to Sauron once the time was right.
Elrond didn't kill Isildur because:
Elves don't do things when consequences are not known. That is also why the don't give out advice easily. And that's why Gollum wasn't killed. Things don't always go the way you think they will, and Elves know this like none of the other races.
Elves don't meddle in the affairs of Middle-Earth or humans for that matter. Except when the total destruction of Middle-Earh seems at hand.
After the war against evil, you don't do something evil that will cause a new war, and you think it is not your place too interfere.
Some of my ramblings on the matter, I might be wrong, I might be right.
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 3:42 pm
by humanflyz
@Gandalfgal The Talking Variant:
Yeah! That's exactly what I am trying to say. Well, I guess my thoughts weren't that clear after a night of partying. I wish I could say something so abstract and lengthy in short, precise, and easy to understand sentences.
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 5:36 pm
by Georgi
Originally posted by T'lainya:
<STRONG>IIRC Elrond was Gil-Galads standard bearer. </STRONG>
So does that explain why in the movie he was the only soldier in that entire army who wasn't wearing a helmet?
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 6:06 pm
by Kayless
Originally posted by Georgi:
<STRONG>So does that explain why in the movie he was the only soldier in that entire army who wasn't wearing a helmet?
</STRONG>
Must you dump on everything?
Why don't you unwind by hunting some orc?
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:31 pm
by thantor3
Not having read the trilogy, could someone explain to me why Elrond stated that the elves were leaving Middle Earth and where they were going? I believe Galadriel said something similiar, about going the the west to diminish...
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 8:40 pm
by EMINEM
Originally posted by thantor3:
<STRONG>Not having read the trilogy, could someone explain to me why Elrond stated that the elves were leaving Middle Earth and where they were going? I believe Galadriel said something similiar, about going the the west to diminish...</STRONG>
You hit upon a central theme of the whole book, thantor. The Elves were not native to Middle-Earth like the human, dwarf, and hobbit races. Their true home was a land far west of the sea called Eressea. Those who chose to return could do so by means of grey ships provided by Cirdan the Shipwright in coastal Rivendell called the Grey Havens. It appears only Elves, and certain mortals who have achieved immortal enlightenment (ie. Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli) were entitled to take ship with them.
The atmosphere of sadness and irreparable loss that haunts the LoTR trilogy stems from the intense rapport the Elves possessed towards their adopted homes in Middle-Earth; Rivendell, Lorien, and Mirkwood. These abodes were like "Eressea" colonies. Within their boundaries, no evil could trespass, and time brought healing, not decay. Days were filled with joy and peace, and nights with soothing dreams. Those who lived here aged slowly, if at all.
The special enchantments of Lorien, Rivendell, and Mirkwood came from the three Elven Rings wielded by Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. My guess is that the Rings intensified the innate spirit of the elven race to such an extent that their natural surroundings took on the qualities of their inhabitants so that land and people became an organic unity. Unfortunately, the powers of the Elven Rings depended on the existence of the One Ring. Everything that had been wrought by the Elven Rings since time immemorial would become undone with the destruction of the One Ring - Lorien, Rivendell, and Mirkwood would fall into ruin and decay, and the Elves likewise reduced to living like ordinary mortals with no symbiotic relationship with each other, or with their land. Thus, the departure of the Elves from Middle-Earth and journey back to Eressea.
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2001 8:52 pm
by ThorinOakensfield
Originally posted by thantor3:
<STRONG>Not having read the trilogy, could someone explain to me why Elrond stated that the elves were leaving Middle Earth and where they were going? I believe Galadriel said something similiar, about going the the west to diminish...</STRONG>
OOh this is going to need a long explanation. Its all in the Simarillion.
SPOiLERS
In the beginning there was Illuvater aka. Eru who was one god and he created his children, the Ainur. He also created a world and the Ainur that went to make the world were called the Valar. They are gods. So they created continents and such and on one continent they put up 2 lamps so that there could be light. But the eldest of the Valar, Melkor became evil and destroyed the lamp and caused much havoc. The Valar left this continent and went to an island called Valinor, which became their home and they planted 2 trees that gave light to the island. Now far in the east, elves awoke. The Valar went to them and invited them to come to Valinor because the rest of the world was in perpetual night. Most of the elves agreed to go, and they went in 3 different groups. First were the Vanyar, they were the most noble of the elves, 2nd the Noldor, wisest of the elves, and 3rd the Teleri, the largest of the 3 groups. The Vanyar and Noldor crossed the world, went over Middle-Earth and over Beleriand, and crossed the sea and went to Valinor. The Teleri lagged behind and some decided to stay in Mirkwood and other places in Beleriand, and they became the grey elves and green elves. The Teleri that went on became sea elves. Now the Valar decided to attack Melkor who lived in the northern areas, north of Beleriand and Middle-Earth. They captured him and kept him prisoner for a long while. Then they let him go. He destroyed the 2 trees that gave light to Valinor and stole the simarills (crystals that gave off light like the trees). Feanor, a Noldor, had created the simarills and was really mad. He had 2 brothers, Fingfolin and Fifarin. He gathered the Noldor and they returned to Beleriand and attacked Melkor(who was later named Morgoth), but failed to reclaim the Simarills. Anyway the Noldor settled down in Beleriand and met up with the gray and green elves that lived in the area. Feanor died, and Fingfolin became high king of the Noldor, and Fingon, his son succeeded him later on. Another son of Fingfolin was Turgon, who was Elrond's great grandfather. Fingon had a son, Gil-Gilad. Finfarin's daughter was Galadriel. So there are your current elves. Then humans came to the west and Morgoth attacked the good people and Beleriand was destroyed and sank into the sea.
So many of the Noldor left Middle Earth and so did grey elves and green elves. Galadriel had moved to Lorien, earlier and remained there. Elrond moved to Rivendill. They remained there because they loved Middle Earth but they too eventually leave to go to Valinor and join their immortal kin.
So basically elves leave Middle Earth and Beleriand to go to Valinor which is the realm of the gods, the Valar.
Hope that helped a bit.
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2001 4:00 am
by GandalfgalTTV
My thoughts on wizards:
They posses the wisdom of the elves. Combined they know all that can be know about past and present. They are a part of Middle-Earth just like the humans.
This makes them guides and advisers, not fighters. Their power comes from knowledge and wisdom, not from lightning bolts and fire balls.
Whenever Gandalf is missed by his companions it is because of his guidance, not because of his lightning bolts.
The reason he doesn't go around spraying everything with lightning is his elvish wisdom and the firm believe that he shouldn't interfere too much with the flow of things. Everything has a purpose and Wizards shouldn't meddle too much, unless their is no other way.
When he saves the dwarves from the Orcs he kills a lot of the Orcs, but if he hadn't, the dwarves would have died for sure.
In the war of the five armies he uses his magic to kill many a orc, but he does so as a last resort, it is not his war, and he is not a battle tactic. If they could have won without him he wouldn't have done anything.
A battle between wizards is not a show, not lightning bolt against lightning resistance, it's a test of will, of intent and knowledge The way it should be. A battle of the mind.
I hope this explains a bit of I think Tolkien wanted Wizards to be. And why I love them so much
This became a lot longer then planned.
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2001 4:34 am
by Aegnor
@ Thorin - nice recap of elven history there...the only thing i would add is that its important to note the Noldor were *exiled* from the east when they slew a bunch of Teleri who were reluctant to lend their ships to Feanor for his crusade. (minor movie SPOILER)
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This underscores the fierce pride of the Noldor, and, to me, makes Galadriel's encounter with Frodo all the more significant, since she has mastered her pride and refuses the ring.
Aside note:
Went down to city hall last night to see the annual ice sculpture contest, as the theme was, of course, LOTR. Some really nice work, anyone reading this who is in Toronto should check it out TODAY. My fav. was a 2-3 foot diameter "ring", on its edge, of crystal clear ice with the Elvish characters marking the outside - I'm not sure how it was done, but they were like snow injected into the ice. Very cool (pun inteneded)
Anyway some others were not quite finished today they should be quite excellent I might go back and have another look.
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2001 10:27 am
by Vivien
I watched the movie last Friday, and am still working through my opinions. I went into it (having read the books) determined not to ruin it for myself. I purposely went just to ‘enjoy a good adventure’, so I was thus impressed and give it at least 9/10.
My favorite is Frodo, his eloquent eyes and innocent bearing just capture what I have always pictured in my head. Bear in mind that I first read the series when I was 12, and have always had a crush on him, and thus on hobbits. Frodo’s strength and wisdom mixed with such aching vulnerability…
I liked Galadrial (I know, I spell everything wrong) was just as I had pictured her. I was actually appreciative of the special effects making her dark and big, as they brought home for me her importance, her power, and the fact that even beings of light can be tempted. *shrug*
Sam, need I say more? He was also as I had pictured him, ‘Mr. Frodo’ and ‘Mr. Gandalf’ spilling from his lips as he shows the same loyalty, the same darn courage that I had always admired.
Legolas…Well, he’s a babe, and just how I pictured.
I did not like that they didn’t develop Grimli… but maybe in the next movie?
Merry and Pippin, well I thought they did very well
Let’s face it, they ARE little thieving comic reliefs: ‘Fool of of a Took!
True to character they can’t help getting into trouble, but also… I remember seeing two little forms clinging to the top of that mountain troll when Frodo was endangered.
Two scenes I liked:
-When they camp in the ruins, Strider has left to scout and the hobbits make a fire. The fact that Sam positions himself in front of Frodo, that Merry and Pippin then follow suit when facing the tall and terrifying wraiths. Those four small forms standing for a moment against the darkness because of their loyalty to Frodo and each other was very poignant for me. Makes me wonder how many much taller men would have been so brave?
-The Mountain troll. He was cute
I felt kind of sorry that they had to kill him. It was those mean goblins chaining him and bringing him in, though I did like that once released he killed more goblins than anything else
I went with the man I’m dating and he had some interesting things to say during the movie from a unique ‘not in love with the books’ way:
1) The wizards need to shoot lightening bolts or something. (I’ve already argued this with him)
2) Legolas is cool, you better watch out for those skinny albino elves.
3) All elves must be albino’s.
4) How are they going to get two more movies out of this? Looks like Sam and Frodo are almost there!
5) Why are you crying?! It’s just two hobbits talking. (this was when Frodo and Sam are alone and about to enter the dark and scary reaches before them…Sam swearing his loyalty *sigh*)
[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Vivien ]
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2001 2:53 pm
by thantor3
Thank you, Eminem and Thorin... I appreciate you taking the time to explain that to me. It was quite helpful...
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2001 5:49 pm
by humanflyz
Wait a sec, I thought the Elves were native to Middle-Earth. They first came into being in Middle-Earth, not in Valinor. So technically, they are native to Middle-Earth, it's just that the Valar invited the Elves to live in Valinor with them. Well, it is true that the Elves were estranged from their birthplace, but technically they are still native to Middle-Earth.
I am currently trying to read some of the things that Tolkien read that partly inspired his mythological creations. I am going to list the sources that I am currently reading, if anyone knows other sources that may have influenced Tolkien, please list them. Thank you.
1) Poetic and Prose Edda
2) Kalevala
[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: humanflyz ]
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:28 pm
by GandalfgalTTV
Originally posted by humanflyz:
<STRONG>Wait a sec, I thought the Elves were native to Middle-Earth. They first came into being in Middle-Earth, not in Valinor. So technically, they are native to Middle-Earth, it's just that the Valar invited the Elves to live in Valinor with them. Well, it is true that the Elves were estranged from their birthplace, but technically they are still native to Middle-Earth.
<snip>
</STRONG>
But there is still a difference in the way they where created. Dwarves from stone, humans from the earth, Elves from the song. Although they where created with Middle-Earth they are not created from it. Although they came to be after the Valar, they are more like them, then they are like the humans.
I think I'll look it up in the morning when my mind is a bit clearer, to see whether or not my memory has failed me.
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2001 1:32 am
by Alienbob
I thought the movie rocked. It was a lot faster paced than the books, and was filled with suspnse even though,having read Tolkien, I knew what was going to happen. Everything about it was very well done, in fact the only thing i dont like is the fact that im going to have to wait a whole year for the next one to come out.
I think the reason that good wizards dont go around frying every orc or troll in sight is because they are the wielders of an awesome power. If they use it to much it will consume them and they will turn evil. which might be why evil wizards sometimes seem more powerful seeing as how they are already a slave to their power and can only think of death and destruction.
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2001 9:01 am
by EMINEM
Originally posted by humanflyz:
<STRONG>Wait a sec, I thought the Elves were native to Middle-Earth. They first came into being in Middle-Earth, not in Valinor. So technically, they are native to Middle-Earth, it's just that the Valar invited the Elves to live in Valinor with them. Well, it is true that the Elves were estranged from their birthplace, but technically they are still native to Middle-Earth.
I am currently trying to read some of the things that Tolkien read that partly inspired his mythological creations. I am going to list the sources that I am currently reading, if anyone knows other sources that may have influenced Tolkien, please list them. Thank you.
1) Poetic and Prose Edda
2) Kalevala
[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: humanflyz ]</STRONG>
The Bible, in particular the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Tolkien was a devout Catholic (who was also instrumental in the conversion of CS Lewis from atheism to Christianity), and similarities between Frodo and Christ (long-suffering servant who must struggle against temptations of power), and Aragorn and Christ (exiled King who must reclaim the thone that rightfully belongs to him) implore parallel, though Tolkien admittedly might have argued otherwise.
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2001 10:48 am
by Sailor Saturn
Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>
The Bible, in particular the four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Tolkien was a devout Catholic (who was also instrumental in the conversion of CS Lewis from atheism to Christianity), and similarities between Frodo and Christ (long-suffering servant who must struggle against temptations of power), and Aragorn and Christ (exiled King who must reclaim the thone that rightfully belongs to him) implore parallel, though Tolkien admittedly might have argued otherwise.</STRONG>
My dad just told me last night about Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. I agree that there are a few small similarities and that the Bible did influence Tolkien's work; but I do not consider the books to be at all any kind of allegory. Tolkien himself said they are not an allegory of anything.
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2001 10:57 am
by Sailor Saturn
Something interesting I just read about Tolkien(At least, I find it interesting, hope you do to):
According to the Baptist Standard:
<STRONG>In fact, he wound up writing "The Hobbit," the prequel to "Lord of hte Rings," after encountering a blank page while grading exams. He impulsively jotted down, "In a hole in the ground, there lived a hobbit." Not knowing what a "hobbit" was, he wrote an entire novel to answer his own question.</STRONG>
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2001 11:32 am
by humanflyz
@Sailor Saturn:
I've read that one too. It was very interesting. Although Tolkien denied absolutely that LOTR is not an allegorical piece of writing, I can't seem to help to notice that there's a lot of allegories.
Another source that might have influenced Tolkien:
Le Morte D'arthur
Aragorn parallels Arthur with the sword, the Avalon-like isle of Numenore. "The Return Of the King".
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2001 12:50 pm
by average joe
Call me a boorish American, but that line didn’t horrify me all that much. (Now if he had said "Let's lock and load", it would be a different story).
ROFLMAO
Good stuff.
One thing I would like to say regarding the relationship between elves and dwarves...and Legolas and Gimli, is that it will prolly be explored greater in the next film.
I believe this is much the way of things in the books as well. In the fellowship of the ring, you have nine companions travelling together. The journey they take is quite fast paced, and you only get to see their personalities as a whole.
Now that the fellowship has been broken, the individual characters, and the bonds they form, will be explored in much greater detail.
That's how i see it.