What is your religion?

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 11:26 am

Originally posted by Sojourner:
so I eventually became an atheist, much to their horror.

And are you better for it?

Jo_b_1 · Post by **Jo_b_1** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 12:50 pm

Damn, I was hopeing not to get into this, but I can't resist.

@ Grimreaper: You present one of the classic arguments that athesist <sp> present, the inconsistancy of the Christian God's Character. I invite you to entertain the following thought to start with. (but first I must set up an assumption: The Bible is the word of God i.e. it is correct)

1. I will adress the thought of God controling people.
EX:
I have a weapon in my hand, be it a gun, sword something of which I can cease your existance with. I say to you "Grimreaper, Love me". You say "Sure, I'll love you (all the while you soil your pants)" Now ask your self the question: Is this a choice? All you need answer with is a simple yes or no.

I'll be back to collect the answer later.

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 1:54 pm

@Average Joe
If everything you say is true, then I respect your beliefs. I know a few people like you, and I respect them all. Still, you must admit that many people are influenced in their decisions.

@Sojourner
Really, I am much the same as you, except that in my case I have been going to a Christian school since first grade, and I am now starting eleventh. I was once a Christian, but after learning a bit more about the subject, I realized that by my logic, my beliefs weren't right, so I changed them to my new beliefs. So far, every time I have learned something new about the Bible, I have only felt better about my current, atheistic, views.

@Mad
Simply, I'd say that's not a choice. Sure I could choose to say no, but that's not really an option if I want to live, and therefore you really have no choice but to say yes if you value your life at all.

Jo_b_1 · Post by **Jo_b_1** » Mon Aug 20, 2001 8:52 pm

@Grimreaper, excellent choice. (Now, we shall take another assumption that we will assume is correct. We will assume that God is a god of Love (out of the Book of John, I don't have the verse on hand

)).

Now, the question is this: if he is as you say, all controling the what is the problem?. I have great news for you, this is not the case. We have free-will, we can choose to love him or not. That is the major portion of love, a decision (i.e. free-will). Therefore, he cannot control our spirits, he makes the rules, but we can choose to follow him out of love and obidience <sp>.

Grim, enjoy the evening/morning or whereever you're at. I will field your questions/comments tommarrow (I love this topic too). As for now, I must get some sleep, morning comes too early 'round here.

I'm out, Good Night all.

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 9:38 am

Originally posted by GrimReaper:
@Average Joe
If everything you say is true, then I respect your beliefs. I know a few people like you, and I respect them all. Still, you must admit that many people are influenced in their decisions.

I very much agree with your point, Grim. I would also say, however, that it most definitely applies both ways. There are individuals within Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and any other people following an idealology, that are influenced. It could probably have once been said that the majority of those influenced were Christians, but with the rising numbers of Atheists and other religions in American culture (yes, i'm referring primarily to the US, though it could very well apply to the rest of the world) where Christians are now becoming the minority, I would think that more people are now influenced to follow these other sets of beliefs than those who are influenced to follow Christianity. It goes both ways.

Originally posted by Grim Reaper:
@Mad
Simply, I'd say that's not a choice. Sure I could choose to say no, but that's not really an option if I want to live, and therefore you really have no choice but to say yes if you value your life at all.

Yes, but once again, it goes both ways. I would, if in this exact same situation but with someone telling me i must deny Christ, stand in my faith and choose death. For compared to Christ, my life is nothing, as He is the only reason i have true life. I thank God everyday that i don't live in a society that persecutes me for my beliefs, though perhaps i would be a much stronger individual if such was the case. And it breaks my heart to know that, as i write this, my brothers and sisters in faith are being brutally tortured in far-off countries for their devotion. Yes, i do know that Christians of the past have done the same thing (the Inquisition and such). It appalls me, and my heart aches for those who were tortured and died because they did not believe the same as i do, but there is little i can do for the mistakes of those in the past, aside from testify to the wrongness of it and learn from it. My point is that Christians everyday are faced with the same decision you describe, only it is a human presenting the choice.

More on your statement, i do not look at it as being forced to choose between life and death...but rather being presented with either the death i deserve or the gift of the life that i do not deserve. And i am not being forced...it is my free will. Of course, then many would say that if God is omniscient and omnipotent, there is no such thing as free will, as all things have been set forth in time. As far as "pre-destination," i have no answer, and the topic is something i still must research for my own answers. It would also seem contradictory to many, if not most, when i state that i believe God is all-knowing, yet i still have the choice to live my life as i wish. To me, however, it is not based on logic, but on faith. And this is where most people turn away from Christianity, or any other religion for that matter.

After reading over this post, i felt i needed to state that my posts on the subject at hand all state what i believe and my reasons. I don't quote any outside sources or such. This is because i am not debating or trying to prove or refute any points brought up. I am only attempting to present my viewpoints, as maybe they are new or different and give someone another angle from which to look at the picture. I am very much enjoying everyone else's viewpoints.

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: average joe ]

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 2:11 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
And are you better for it?

Of course. The Church was corrupt, in more ways than one.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 4:57 am

my religion is

Bad religion

man i used to love that band.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 5:12 am

Originally posted by Sojourner:
Of course. The Church was corrupt, in more ways than one.

Most churches are corrupt, but removing yourself from them doesn't solve that problem, i have seen corruption in many chapels/churches, it is not a pretty sight, seeing to supposed patriachs of good living and love bickering about the way 'their' church should be run. IMO churches defy the point of being a christian, it is not about where you worship, it is about who.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 12:40 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
Most churches are corrupt, but removing yourself from them doesn't solve that problem, i have seen corruption in many chapels/churches, it is not a pretty sight, seeing to supposed patriachs of good living and love bickering about the way 'their' church should be run.

I'm not talking about that kind of corruption. I'm talking about the kind where anything is justified in the name of <insert favorite religion here>. Once you have experienced it, there is no going back.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 12:58 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner:
I'm not talking about that kind of corruption. I'm talking about the kind where anything is justified in the name of <insert favorite religion here>. Once you have experienced it, there is no going back.

Do you mean genocide etc. other atrocities?

These people would use any excuse to do these things, they just hide behind religion, some of them even feel justified due to their beliefs

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 3:12 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
Do you mean genocide etc. other atrocities?

These people would use any excuse to do these things, they just hide behind religion, some of them even feel justified due to their beliefs

Agreed - what is worse, however, are those within "the faithful" who tolerate it, and even implicitly support the perpetrators.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 3:16 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner:
Agreed - what is worse, however, are those within "the faithful" who tolerate it, and even implicitly support the perpetrators.

Agreed, however what drives a person to do that is interesting, is it a need to fit in at the cost of their personal morales?

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:12 pm

I just have a couple more comments which I thought of today at school while listening to somebody speak to us. First, in the Bible, Jesus says that you must either be for him or against him. My problem with this is that it basically says that if you are not a Christian than you can do no good in the world. As an atheist I am not for Jesus and therefore must be against him, which means being for Satan. The problem is that if I was for Satan (the root of all evil with no good in him), then I can't do any good because Satan wouldn't allow it. This obviously is not true. I'm sure everybody, atheist and religious both, has done some good in their lives. Anyways, that's basically it for that one.

My second point is that most Christians say that you gain freedom by following God, but if you don't then you are just a pawn of Satan. First, I have to say that in the whole Christian religion I don't see any chance of freedom no matter what you do. You are always being used by either God or Satan for their bidding. Secondly, I seem to see more freedom in Satan than in God. If you follow God than you have to follow his set of rules. You have to spread the gospel, and you can't have premarital sex. These are just a couple of the rules. Most of the Bible just points outs rules anyways. Now Satan says, "Do whatever you want," and he is happy with just the fact that you don't follow God. I think this sounds like more freedom than what God gives you. Anyways that's it for this.

P.S. Just so everyone knows, I am an atheist. I do not worship Satan or anything like that, and I do not encourage anyone else to. I just had to say that because after reading this over it seems that some of my comments sound like they are coming from a Satanist, but I am just presenting them as theoretical, because I do not believe in either God or Satan.

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:25 pm

Mr Sleep, I hate to sound pessimistic but most people don't have personal morals. They get their morals from Religion. So if their religious leader says that it's okay to commit genocide, they can easily be lead to believe it.

I hate people who don't think.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:42 pm

@Grimreaper: I certainly don't think your a Satanist

I think you have stated firmly that you do not believe in any god/-s, so that would rule out satanism. AFAIU a satanist must also be a christian, since believing in the existence of satan means you believe in the bible and in god, too. So, a satanist is just a subtype of christianity, and since you are an atheist, you could not believe in satan more than in god.

@Quark: I don't think the problem is that many people lack a moral, but that a lot of people have a moral that is very egoistic and governed by principles of greed. My experince is that most people do have a moral system, but too many people lack empathy or care for people who are outside their immediate sphere.
Also, I think hopelessness plays a big part, people just don't feel they can make any difference anyway. How many times haven't we heard the "Well, it's horrible that 60 million people have died of AIDS in Africa, but what can I do about that?".

Jo_b_1 · Post by **Jo_b_1** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:31 pm

@Grimreaper

Fist Paragraph. Grimreaper, I'm not sure what passage you are getting that from (quote it too me if you have the reference), but what you are stating is not the case. You can do good in the world, the bible doesn't say you can't. By not taking Jesus as your personal saviour, then I'm afraid Heaven isn't a viale option. Sorry.

Second Paragraph. Grim, your painting your self in a corner here. First, you are admitting that you are controlled. I refer to my pervious post about free-will. IF you choose to deny free will, then you obviously believe that there is some planned out fate, planned by a higher authority (who else?), your an agnostic as opposed to an atheist. Second, the bible is a guide for life, you can follow it or not. That's ultimately up to you. I will have you note, that the best guide for living for atheist's is the Bible believe it or not. Take a look at people who live the best they can by that book, but do not believe, the usually live relatively good lives. My next point, refers to your premaritial sex: There is a reason that your not supposed to have premarital sex. You chances of haveing a successful marriage drop like a brick if you choose to do so (many studies have been done on the topic). I'm not saying that you can't have a successful marriage, but it's alot of hard work (it's alot of hard work in the first place).

Ladies and Gentlemen, I must say this because it is a minor irritant to me concerning this topic re: Satan making you do things. He doesn't, what he does is tempt you and get you to go along with his idea. Ladies and Gentlemen, we cannot win on our own against him. He's flat out too good at what he does. You wanna win? You need to read and Study God's Word and arm yourself. Even then we will loose, but then that's why we have Jesus who died a most horrible death on a Cross and Rose 3 days later that we might win over that evil Son of a B!tch and live life eternally with him. I feel the need to say this. I'm sorry if some of you don't like it, but it's the truth. Again, if you don't like it, tough. Sorry but that's the way it is.

Gotta go get some sleep. Good night all

Peace out
-Mad

P.S. Grimreaper, this is not an attack, please don't think it as such beacuse it's not. I'm merely stating the truth.

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 11:14 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans:
[QB]@Grimreaper: I certainly don't think your a Satanist I think you have stated firmly that you do not believe in any god/-s, so that would rule out satanism. AFAIU a satanist must also be a christian, since believing in the existence of satan means you believe in the bible and in god, too. So, a satanist is just a subtype of christianity, and since you are an atheist, you could not believe in satan more than in god.
QB]

I see that big goofy smile C E, but i gots to ask....are you serious??? Believing in God or the validity of the bible doesn't make one a Christian. It is faith that Christ is the living Son of God, who died on the cross for our sins and rose on the third day, as well as allowing him to be complete Lord of your life, that makes you a Christian. Even the demons belief Christ is the Son of God, but they will never serve him. I've come to respect your thoughts and posts, but this is just silly. Perhaps, however, it just shows that most people don't understand what Christianity really is all about. This is probably due to the fact that so many who claim to be Christians fail to even understand it themselves, and therefore fail to live as they should. When I say "as they should," it might come across as quite judgmental. Well, i'm sorry, but I won't tolerate those who claim to be Christians shedding a bad light on my faith, and especially not on my Lord. Those who don't claim Christianity don't have this responsibility. Those who misrepresent Christ by their actions truly anger me. We all make mistakes, but some people!....Alright, i'm ranting. Sorry, i kept getting side-tracked cuz i'm carrying out several conversations as i type this. I'll end this in the same manner as your post...with a big goofy smile

Yes, i do understand your logic that if someone claims to believe the Bible, then they must believe everything it says. But that doesn't mean they put their faith in Christ. Nor does it mean they understand what they believe. To many people out there claim to believe or follow what they don't even understand

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: average joe ]

Mr Snow · Post by **Mr Snow** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 12:01 am

Originally posted by Vehemence:
No religion.

Why not? Because if there was a god, he surely would have smited my ass long ago! It just doesn't make sense for him/her to keep a guy like me running around in the world!

My sentiments exactly

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:30 am

Average Joe writes:
Believing in God or the validity of the bible doesn't make one a Christian. It is faith that Christ is the living Son of God, who died on the cross for our sins and rose on the third day, as well as allowing him to be complete Lord of your life, that makes you a Christian.

@AJ, would I be right in assuming that one must be born again into Christ through conscious acceptance? That this is necessary to reach heaven? Assuming this is so, what happens to infants too young to make any conscious decision, and who die before they can?

Note: I am not razzing you. This is actually a topic that we touched upon briefly a couple of months back.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Worldfrog · Post by **Worldfrog** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 2:56 pm

I'm glad to see that people can actually discuss what is normally a very touchy subject on what seems to be a fairly friendly level.

As I stated earlier, I am a Christian, with all that implies, but I would like to give a little history of my life.

My parents became Christians when I was about six, and I promptly began attending a Christian school, which I attended through high school. Like many here, I saw the hypocrisy of those around me as I grew up, and became quite disillusioned with Christianity by 10th grade or so. At that point in time I would have said that although I believed in a god, I didn't know what to believe about him/her/it.

During college I read several religious texts (including the Satanic Bible). Interestingly enough, a Satanist is not someone who worships Satan - it's someone who ultimately worships him/herself. I dare say that description is enough to say that if you are not practicing any religion, you are effectively a Satanist, since you are doing as you please. Please don't take this as name-calling, anyone, it's just what the text says.

At any rate, after researching various religions for a couple of years, I finally ended up being a Christian. Now, this is certainly not because I'm "good", or because I was "good", because I was and am not good in and of myself. The only good thing I can claim is that Christ was perfectly good on my behalf.

When you get right down to it, Christianity is a historical religion. It's based on one central idea or proof - that Christ was a physical person, that he lived on this earth, and that he died and rose again. Christ's resurrection was the "proof" that His teachings and His life were truth. Paul says as much in his writings - he states that if Christ was not resurrected, then let us eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. In short, if Christ was not really resurrected from the dead, then there is no Christianity! Disprove the resurrection and you disprove all that Christians believe. In my research, there's no other religion that backs up its claims with a historically researchable event. One of the Roman historians (I believe it was Herodotus) wrote that so many people had claimed to see Christ after his crucifixion that it could not be discounted as false.

I've rambled plenty, so I'll stop while I'm behind...