It's like a group of D&D high school virgins got together and made a video game

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:24 am

VonDondu wrote:Based on what I've read so far, I think I would like to play The Witcher. Even if it is indeed "like a group of D&D high school virgins got together and made a video game", it sounds like a lot of fun.

I find it immensly fun, and I generally am drawn to the RPG aspects of games, and this game presents roleplaying choices I've not seen in many other games, where you actually change the story by your choices which aren't cookie cutter back-white as in so many of the other RPGs cited by people.
I love Baldur's Gate for instance, but there are few actual difficult choices with long term consequences in that game, outside the reputation factor. Similar with PS:T, there might be a lot of dialogue in that game, but I do not recall it as being particular interactive. Wall of text being presented is no different to me then wall of text being presented as speech, not even if you get to choose dialogue wall-of-text a or wall-of-text b instead of speech a or speech b.
And so on....

The Witcher is indeed a good Roleplaying Game, and a generally good Game IMO. Roleplaying is not to me about being allowed to call my avatar a specific name, or being able to utilize classes, or even seeing some arbitrary and inconsequential reputation/alignment scale climb up and down.
It is about much more then that, and The Witcher does hit it's mark in my view.
The fact that I for one of the first times ever was put in front of grey choices which did not present neither a good nor evil way out was great. heck - I had to step away from the computer to decide whether to do option a or b or c.
I just wished there had been more of them in the game, but I guess a handful are a big step up from the none we usually see.

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:50 am

Based on what I've read so far, I think I would like to play The Witcher. Even if it is indeed "like a group of D&D high school virgins got together and made a video game", it sounds like a lot of fun.

I think it is a game with a good deal of style for instance I couldn't defeat certain monsters unless I prepared for them with lore and smarts (no spoiler). I mean in character smarts. Out of character the kind of mental ability needed is to cope with confusion and decide what you want your character to work on.

I also admit to liking to play this character and I think its quite funny. Even the talking to the hooker's. Heck I had a hooker ask me at a airport motel if I was alone once (real life) and I thought that was really funny. The advantage of a computer game is that its pure fantasy. My zodiac does say I have a repressed shadow side so maybe thats it.

Anyhow I know not every human being will like this fantasy game but I really did.

The closest game I felt was eternal darkness which is not a pc game but it is similar because they had attention to detail in the style (its not as wide a questing game just though) but they were similar in that the vibe of the game is detailed in some way and somewhat dark and scary. Doom 1, eternal darkness, this game, and morrowind have all made me scared playing. This game is a kind of annoying scared like I am afraid I will sell a bun that I need to bribe someone and screw my game haha but it is also scary to be hunting something dangerous.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:36 am

Is it true that The Witcher doesn't allow for flexibility in quest solving? That quests are meant to be solved in a specific order, and that ifyou solve them out of order, the game dialog, etc, refuses to recognize what you've done? If this does happen, as I think I've seen complaints before, does it happen regularly?

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:15 am

I haven't noticed that and I am in a chapter where I am trying to solve some things. I looked a little bit on witcher site forum and there seemed to be alternate ways of acting.

To be honest I find it quite difficult. I have followed all the leads in my quest log and I don't know what to do now. The one annoying thing I have found is that sometimes if you choose the wrong dialogue option with someone they will get pissed at you for awhile and you have to wait until they have forgotten that incident (which is kind of absurd).

But to answer your question I think the game is more about a story and less about a mystery game. A lot of effort went into keeping a cool feel to the game and having a good story plus some excitement. I remember the mystery games of the early 80s which were somewhat absurd (text based) that were more innovative puzzle solving games and here in 2007 I feel we have gotten away from that and gone into plot and graphics and setting more in this game.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:12 am

Claudius wrote:But to answer your question I think the game is more about a story and less about a mystery game.

If it came across as though I were asking whether it's a mystery game, that's my error: sorry. I meant that I'd heard the game's dialog trees are too linear for the quest structure. That if you solve a given quest out of order, NPCs won't recognize this. It expects a very linear order to quests.

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:11 am

Yes (the dialogue doesn't perfectly mirror the actions of the character) but it is not grossly terrible in my opinion. I have noticed it a little or else I am just confused because I am a bad detective. But I think sometimes the responses assumes you haven't done or have done something that isn't the case.

But its not gross like I say imho. You notice a little bit funny but in my case I can maintain a suspension of disbelief. In fact I am not sure if it is just poor comprehension by me....its stylistic dialogue I mean in day to day life I am used to a more plain and clear style of speach. Perhaps my confusion is just from my own difficulties with comprehending witty dialogue. For example I had to watch CSI for several times before I caught on because I couldn't figure out ever what was happening....

Anyhow. The answer is that I enjoy the game. I don't think it is perfect.

An example of how it is good but not perfect. A character who is helping me asked me to talk to another character. I had already talked to that character and the dialogue did not reflect that I already had a personal relationship. But there was new information so it still made sense that I see him again. If it told me to do a previous trigger I already did I would be mad because it would be confusing but since there was new information I was fine even though it didn't seem like real life. But hey!

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:39 am

fable wrote:If it came across as though I were asking whether it's a mystery game, that's my error: sorry. I meant that I'd heard the game's dialog trees are too linear for the quest structure. That if you solve a given quest out of order, NPCs won't recognize this. It expects a very linear order to quests.

Unlike most games, you can actually solve quests without having them. However some you can't.

Examples are the "Witcher" quests (basic kill tasks) where you can collect all the items needed prior to having the quest. But you can't hand the quest in, until you actually get the quest. This means the NPC will not know that you have 5 monster heads in your backpack, and you'll tell him, until he gives you the quest to collect 5 monster heads.

However, you can "solve" other quests without having the quest, as it happened to me when I solved a series of sub-quests without actually having the quest (just stumbled on the solutions). Well basically that is skipping a lot of quests, because by skipping quests, you no longer need to completing them.
Then the game is clever enough to reward you with the XP's you "missed" by skipping quests as well, so all you "loose" is actually following the quest-lines.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:07 pm

Xandax wrote:However, you can "solve" other quests without having the quest, as it happened to me when I solved a series of sub-quests without actually having the quest (just stumbled on the solutions). Well basically that is skipping a lot of quests, because by skipping quests, you no longer need to completing them.
Then the game is clever enough to reward you with the XP's you "missed" by skipping quests as well, so all you "loose" is actually following the quest-lines.

Sounds like a consolation prize.

I suppose you don't mean that getting XP for the quests you skip (bypass) is more fun than actually "following the quest-lines"?
Some quests are good, I would not want to miss them.

@fable

Is it true that The Witcher doesn't allow for flexibility in quest solving? That quests are meant to be solved in a specific order, and that ifyou solve them out of order, the game dialog, etc, refuses to recognize what you've done? If this does happen, as I think I've seen complaints before, does it happen regularly?

You can mess up by not doing the quests in a timely manner. Happens a lot. For example, it is advisable to do all side quests before you advance the main plot. Some quests you have to complete "right now" or else. Forget doing them when you feel like it. You get distracted, and your quest is gone. Or NPC is gone. Or NPC tells you to go away and never come back. Like in "real life". Sometimes, even such generic quests as "kill baddies" or bring heads can be broken by doing something out of order. So, if you would like to complete as many quests as possible, you should plan every sneeze strategically. That might involve a good deal of replaying and restarting the whole chapter. If you add long loading times, it can be time consuming, let alone frustrating. Not a problem if you’ve got a lot of free time on your hands or plan on replaying the whole game as soon as you finished it.

Perhaps my confusion is just from my own difficulties with comprehending witty dialogue.

That probably explains my own confusion.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:37 pm

Lady Dragonfly wrote:Sounds like a consolation prize.
I suppose you don't mean that getting XP for the quests you skip (bypass) is more fun than actually "following the quest-lines"?
Some quests are good, I would not want to miss them.
<snip>

No - I do not personally mean it is more fun, and I do not know if it is shabby programming so to speak or indented.
But it is possible as per the question, to not follow the intended quest lines and still complete quests in situations.

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:05 am

it seems to me that it would be challenging to have a somewhat (although there IS an invisible fence I mean geralt can't decide to become a ballet dancer and give up his quest) open roaming feel and also guarantee that every quest piece is uncovered. The only thing that would annoy me is if the dialogue indicates I have done things I have not. So far I can't tell entirely although I am somewhat cognizant of what is going on so it must be pretty coherent ie perhaps there is one or two disjunctures but I don't think I noticed.

phelot43 · Post by **phelot43** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:17 pm

I gotta agree with dcb on this. I, too found the game to be a bit of a socially-awkward teenage boys wet dream. The women are all ridiculously slutty and have sex with Geralt under the most foolish of situations. Sorry, but it's just not realistic. Women don't really have sex with you for a few tulips folks, just like women won't have sex with the pizza delivery guy as shown in certain "adult films." It's a very "Man's" perspective. It would be funny if Geralt would tag a few burly dudes to bum some kids out! :laugh:

Also, I just don't see whats so special about the adult elements in this game. It's not riveting nor new to have an "evil" Church. Especially such a black and white presentation of it thats summed up in a few lines of really awkward dialog. It didn't make me think about the impact of an institutions impact on the lives, and very minds of it's participants, nor what the consequences of said institutes stray from it's supposed path. Instead it made me think "This Reverend sucks, I should kill him."
Same thing goes for the racism. I wasn't pondering what made the peasants and destitute humans react so poorly to the nonhumans and whether they had a just cause in some cases, however "evil" it seems. Instead, I was thinking that I bet that dwarf is important and I should save him...

Sadly most of the dialog consists of two choices. And they claim this game isn't black and white.

Look, I like this game, I really do. I love the gameplay, I love the art. It's refreshing and new, but sadly, I've begun to quickly skip over the dialog and cutscenes...

Anyways, thats my dumb ol' opinion!

Kenrenk · Post by **Kenrenk** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:37 pm

phelot43 wrote: Look, I like this game, I really do. I love the gameplay, I love the art. It's refreshing and new, but sadly, I've begun to quickly skip over the dialog and cutscenes...

Anyways, thats my dumb ol' opinion!

Wooo there's a key to skip dialogs and cinematic???? What it is? this can help when you replay after to have die in a fight... But is there any key or it's just you haven't played the game?

phelot43 wrote:Sadly most of the dialog consists of two choices. And they claim this game isn't black and white.

Grey isn't related to number of choices in your dialog but its not a game that will try to learn to your kids to be kind, polite, helpful, be a good people. It's much more grey than the usual white "follow the guide and the good" vs black "be stupid and evil" approach you can find too often in CRPG.

This game isn't setup for child nor for a majority of usa people. No surprise many people react against it. About story writing quality in RPG video game I should laugh quite loud because which one is a top on this? That argument is ridiculous or drop all RPG in the trashcan, none can compare to a book with a good writing quality.

phelot43 · Post by **phelot43** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:53 pm

Wooo there's a key to skip dialogs and cinematic???? What it is? this can help when you replay after to have die in a fight... But is there any key or it's just you haven't played the game?

Apparently pressing the left mouse button works, or escape, at least for me.

This game isn't setup for child nor for a majority of usa people. No surprise many people react against it. About story writing quality in RPG video game I should laugh quite loud because which one is a top on this? That argument is ridiculous or drop all RPG in the trashcan, none can compare to a book with a good writing quality.

It's all a matter of opinion. Personally my favorite story from a CRPG would have to be the little known Planescape: Torment. I've yet to encounter a game that has such strong character development, dialog, writing ability, and general story telling. A few others are some of the older D&D CRPGs and even the Ultima games.

I'm not sure what you mean by "or a majority of usa people." But I assume you make us out to be prudes. Some are, but I'm not. I'm not offended by the softporn... er, I mean "adult material" found in the game, I simply find it to be incredibly cheesy and lame. There are a few others who agree, and of course those who do not. It's a matter of taste and opinion.

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:14 pm

This game isn't setup for child nor for a majority of usa people.

That is a generalization.

Also I am curious if you are from the USA...just curious wondering what stereotypes are out there. For instance to me the game did have kind of a foreign vibe but just simply elements of sex and racism and violence are not foreign to the US media.

Also your sentence is very loaded. You mention that it is not set up for a child nor for a US person. That would seem to imply that you think usa people are like children. I would give that a second thought (if that was your intention).

Finally I think you are missing that other games like NWN for instance may not be childish they are simply a different style. For example the Zen tea ceremony does not contain elements of sex and violence but that does not mean it is childish. Additionally I would imagine that a game with sex would be more interesting to a 14 year old because that is a new horizon. I am 30 years old and I am not saying I have tired of sex much like I still like candy, the zoo, and hot dogs with grilled cheese. But if the rest of the game weren't cool (which it is) I don't think I would care if I got pixels to sleep with me or not. Its just added flavor like people running in the rain.

I guess I am sensing that you are saying not only that Witcher is interesting for various reasons but you are also saying that other games are not. I don't agree although I do feel Witcher is a breath of fresh air. The example I thought of was that I liked the old man and the sea by Hemmingway because I felt for the man and it brought out strong emotion in me but that did not mean I couldn't enjoy jaws which was totally different although still having sharks in the story.

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:46 pm

Same thing goes for the racism. I wasn't pondering what made the peasants and destitute humans react so poorly to the nonhumans and whether they had a just cause in some cases, however "evil" it seems. Instead, I was thinking that I bet that dwarf is important and I should save him...

I agree but I have to admit its a challenge to really make you involved in video games. I mean my honest thought was hmmm I wonder how much xp can I get for killing everything

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:37 am

Kenrenk wrote:Wooo there's a key to skip dialogs and cinematic???? What it is? this can help when you replay after to have die in a fight... But is there any key or it's just you haven't played the game?
<snip>

If it is a dialogue cut-scene, you can "speed click" through it. Or escape will cancel play of the non-dialogue cut-scenes.

phelot43 wrote:I gotta agree with dcb on this. I, too found the game to be a bit of a socially-awkward teenage boys wet dream. The women are all ridiculously slutty and have sex with Geralt under the most foolish of situations. Sorry, but it's just not realistic. Women don't really have sex with you for a few tulips folks, just like women won't have sex with the pizza delivery guy as shown in certain "adult films." It's a very "Man's" perspective. It would be funny if Geralt would tag a few burly dudes to bum some kids out! :laugh:

Nobody ever claimed the game where you carry around big weapons, in a fantasy world, slaying monsters and killing human and elves had realism when it came to womanising.
At least it isn't realistic in other aspects, so why demand it in this aspect?
Besides, the majority of sexual content can be skipped or avoided and the "explicity" is - well to say the least non-existing. A few blurred scenes, some sound bits, and some few tarot cards depicting little more then you see walking down the street on advertisement billboards or in advertisement in prime-time television.

So that hardly makes it a "socially-awkward teenage boys wet dream".

It looks far more to me, like something people focus on for the ones who either do not like the game or want to flaw it. "Oh the game is immature because it has *shudder* sex in it". The sexual content makes up so little, and basically the only ones I found you could not "avoid" where pre-game love interests, so they hardly jumped in the sack for a bunch of tulips.

phelot43 wrote:Also, I just don't see whats so special about the adult elements in this game. It's not riveting nor new to have an "evil" Church. Especially such a black and white presentation of it thats summed up in a few lines of really awkward dialog. It didn't make me think about the impact of an institutions impact on the lives, and very minds of it's participants, nor what the consequences of said institutes stray from it's supposed path. Instead it made me think "This Reverend sucks, I should kill him."

No an "evil" church is nothing new (however although I know the situation you refer to, the church in itself is not evil actually) and I seriously doubt any game makes you think of the impact on the "lives and minds of it's participants". It is a game, it is not a social experiement. Playing Planescape Torment, I did not contemplate my actions in the grand-scheeme of the universe either.
However you do get presented with a choice in the exact situation you mention. Should I kill the evil person one, or the evil person two?
Rarely do you see this in other CRPGs, which always have one clear evil (give book to demon) or good (use book to banish demon) choice.
That is where the choices of The Wicher stands out compared to the cookie-cutter D&D alignment type or liniar reputation scale CRPGs we see ever so often.
My hope is that we in the future will see more like the choices of The Witcher and less like Planescape, BG, NwN, Kotor2, Elder Scroll and so on.

phelot43 wrote: Same thing goes for the racism. I wasn't pondering what made the peasants and destitute humans react so poorly to the nonhumans and whether they had a just cause in some cases, however "evil" it seems. Instead, I was thinking that I bet that dwarf is important and I should save him...

Well, actually I did. When I first got represented with a choice for supporting one faction over the other, I wondered what to do, but made a choice. Then I later saw the consequence of that choice, and each subsequent time I got put infront of such a choice, I started to wonder what my character would do. I so very rarely do that in non-multiplayer or pnp roleplaying games. Then it is usually attempts at maximizing experience points. But in this game, level meant less, and the choices you made affected the story.

And that is part of what makes The Witcher stand out as a quality role playing game in my view in a crop of mediocre peers.
Not the sexual content which proponents often wants to focus on, not that there are cut-scenes instead of wall of text, not the linearity of a story-driven game over a free-roaming one.
But the fact that your choices affected the story line more then just getting rewards X or Y and modifying an alignment/reputation attribute.

Kenrenk · Post by **Kenrenk** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:05 am

Xandax wrote:Unlike most games, you can actually solve quests without having them.

It's more like most games. You kill the bandits group first before to get the quest then meet the city captain and you don't get any reward or quest and xp? Eventually this is more realistic but the few games I saw do that was a crap to do, it's just highly frustrating.

Kenrenk · Post by **Kenrenk** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:24 am

Claudius wrote: Also I am curious if you are from the USA...just curious wondering what stereotypes are out there. For instance to me the game did have kind of a foreign vibe but just simply elements of sex and racism and violence are not foreign to the US media.

Your country, yes not mine, is doing director's cut to some movies and video games that most europe country won't do and more that are often "sex" cut that seems ridiculous. Accuse Holywood power, power of prude organizations in usa, or anything, that won't change that this gives a prude look and feel to the USA people. That's all. But yes I know that this doesn't mean that all usa people will agree to those cuts.

Claudius wrote:Also your sentence is very loaded. You mention that it is not set up for a child nor for a US person. That would seem to imply that you think usa people are like children. I would give that a second thought (if that was your intention).

Common if you can't make the difference between prude and child you have a problem. Prude is for adult, for a child bellow a certain age that means few. But I understand that non prude parents would not like that child bellow an age read or look at something prude people can't support.

Claudius wrote:Finally I think you are missing that other games like NWN for instance may not be childish they are simply a different style.

This is unrelated with the debate. Well I don't see the relationship.

Claudius wrote:I guess I am sensing that you are saying not only that Witcher is interesting for various reasons but you are also saying that other games are not...

Common do you seriously think I am thinking The Witcher is the only good video game ever made?

Kenrenk · Post by **Kenrenk** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:34 am

phelot43 wrote:Apparently pressing the left mouse button works, or escape, at least for me.

Ok, I learned that only recently, sorry for the little suspicion.

phelot43 wrote:It's all a matter of opinion. Personally my favorite story from a CRPG would have to be the little known Planescape: Torment. I've yet to encounter a game that has such strong character development, dialog, writing ability, and general story telling. A few others are some of the older D&D CRPGs and even the Ultima games.

I have tried to play Torment many times from its release to two years ago. I never succeed to get out of the beginning and continue the game. The beginning is awful for me, repetitive, obscure scenario that doesn't succeed one second to rise my curiosity. So I can't compare.

You are quoting CD&D? Most are a little boring with their black&white approach and desperate attempts to learn us what morale is. Eventually the addon of NWN2 is going a bit elsewhere or attempt it, but that's the following of D&D rules that drag those game in this B&W approach.

For Ultima games it's so old that I don't remember well. But I remember the author major goal was to learn us morale. Well for kids ok, for adults sometimes this can become boring.

phelot43 wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "or a majority of usa people." But I assume you make us out to be prudes. Some are, but I'm not. I'm not offended by the softporn... er, I mean "adult material" found in the game, I simply find it to be incredibly cheesy and lame.

It's exactly why I think you are prude you give too much importance of few details because they are sex related. It's not even softporn it's less sex than that, it's some smiles for adults not sexual contents for teens. Yes it's not serious, but that's a detail and only prude people are making this important.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:25 am

@Kenrenk:

Please avoid making potentially offensive generalisations about different nationalities without any evidence to back them up - just because a few people in the USA are completely against sex and violence, it does not mean all are. Every country is made up of different people, all with different morals and viewpoints. Just because the censors may be more strict in a country, it does not imply that everyone in that country is a prude, or even that the majority are.