Q&A on Islam

[CM]

what no more questions?

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by CM
what no more questions?

Okay, you want another question?

What is the general consensous on Salmun Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses", is it blasphemous or merely fiction (bare in mind i haven't actually read it)

[Jace]

@CM, What do you know about Islamic artistic principles? I have heard and seen on various programmes discussion on "the Islamic principle of expansion and contraction". In practice it is easy to see (i.e. the gardens at the Alumbra in Spain), but what makes this particularly an Islamic artistic principle - as opposed to just an artistic princible? Are there any other ones?
I have seen photographs of a large work where all animals are depicted with a thin red line on their throats, indicating that they are dead - which was one way the artist got around showing images of living things. Can't remember what country or time period this was from. The point being that it was done in a manner that even a relitively unschooled westerner like myself could recognise that this was definately a work from an Islamic culture, but I could not easily identify the elements that made it Islamic or the underlaying princible(s).

[CM]

Sleepy, of course i want more questions.
This way i am kept busy and can't do any college work!

Satanic verses, was a peice of fiction. The sole problem with it was that it used the religious figures of Islam, as in the prophet his family, friends etc in certain roles. Like the daughter of the Prophet and the wife of Ali, his cousin was a whore. Every single representation of Islam and of the ones who hold to represent our religion, were insulted and such.

It is like a booking is published describing Mary as a whore, Jesus as a bastard child etc.

To put it on more direct level of reactions, its like the book by the british author who said that jewish deaths were far less than described in the Holocaust.
It created an uproar, in western society.
In the same way the same the book insulted our prophet and those who we see as representing or religion.
People hate Salman Rushidie and are more than happy to see him dead.
Sad thing is that one who insults a major religion is protected by the British government, but a guy who states that the jewish deaths during the holocaust was inflated, is denied entry to the country and i think his citizenship was revoked.

Jace I have no clue, but i can ask my dad.

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by CM
Sleepy, of course i want more questions.
This way i am kept busy and can't do any college work!

Hey as long as there is a good reason

People hate Salman Rushidie and are more than happy to see him dead.

Wanting to see a person dead is a little different to actually making them dead My opinion on Islam is exactly the same as Christianity; there are those who stick to the scriptures and stay within the boundaries of their religion and there are those who twist the words to their own POV and attempt to justify their acts. Islam is basically peaceful yet it is used to justify (for examples sake) people murdering Rushdie... opinion? (i will edit out if too strong or offensive )

[CM]

Sleepy don't edit anything out please.
State what you wish, i have no problems with it.
If i do i will tell you, don't worry about that!

Now many wish him dead and if he was killed, they would either rejoice on the streets or they would say that is what he deserved and leave it be. But there won't be many muslims who would condemn his death.

As for the perversion of Islam to justify some acts, yes that is very true. That is how Saudi keeps women in the hijaab by force etc.

Jace now i talked this over with my dad on the phone, and he told me what I had originally thought. Islamic paitings vary from region to region.
Like Persian, Afghani and Pakistani carpets are as different as day and night, the same is with Islamic paintings.
There are some commom features, like they are mainly on horse back, they all have beards, but that is it.
If you could show me a pic which you think is Islamic, i could point out stuff that would make it seem islamic.
As i have grown up with the different cultures, i would ignore some stuff as obvious, and i am not aware about how much you know about islamic paintings.
So a pic would be nice, so i can start with basic examples.
The most famous islamic paintings (from what I know) are from the Mughal period in India and stuff from Iran.

[CM]

Anymore questions? This in light of Islamization of Europe thread.

[Jace]

@CM, I haven't got around to any examples of art yet, but I have not forgotten and will get something soon

[CM]

No problem. I am here to help.

[CM]

Ok this is highly annoying. I just looked at this thread an noticed this:

Posts 128
Views 1287

I know you guys want to be culturally sensitive and politically correct, but this is damn annoying. The views show how many people are interested in the issue, but the posts are 10 times less. I have said this before and I will say this again. I don't care about being PC. Ask anything you like.

I bet a majority of you want to know about suiciding bombing, why muslims mainly - if not only do it. How does the religion precieve such acts? If it is really enforced and taught in Islam etc. However i will not lecture on my religion. If you have questions i will answer, but my job - something i don't want to do - is not to start lecturing on what Islam teachs. Then it will be preaching and i don't want to do that.

So how many of you would want me to explain the concept of suicide bombing and how islam sees it? If the mods don't agree i can pick another subject.

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by CM
So how many of you would want me to explain the concept of suicide bombing and how islam sees it? If the mods don't agree i can pick another subject.

If it is done in a rational way I am okay with it I am personally quite interested, as far as i was aware it is not looked down upon in the Islamic culture, if anything it is the opposite

[CM]

Excellent. Finally some one with guts!
I will reply in detail tonight, huge long post full of contridictions between what is written and what is actually practiced in Islam.

[C Elegans]

Since we now have authorisation from a Mod, I am also interested in the subject. Why are the suicide bombers and the organisations behind them consciously destroying the peace process that would lead to the creation of an independant Palestine state? Even the horrible Sharon said last autumn that he considered it, something that he was heavily critisised for by the even more extreme hardline nationalists like Nehanyatu(sp?). Now, after all the suicide attacks, the Likud has voted against the creation of a Palestine state neighbouring Israel! I'm sure this would not have happened if the bomber extremists had not performed their attacks. So why? It only adds fuel to Israels hardline politics and creates excuses for Israel military actions where lots of innocent people suffer even more than before.

What do they want to achive? Do they believe they are executing the will of god?

[ThorinOakensfield]

Originally posted by C Elegans


What do they want to achive? Do they believe they are executing the will of god?

I don't think they really want to achieve anything. Its obvious that Hamas does its attacks mainly because anti-Israel and to make Arafat's life even more difficult.

[fable]

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield

I don't think they really want to achieve anything. Its obvious that Hamas does its attacks mainly because anti-Israel and to make Arafat's life even more difficult.

Not so. Hamas has gone on record repeatedly through its leaders as stating that its goal is the removal of the state of Israel. Certainly, this goal is unrealistic, but they're not just "anti-Israel" or "anti-Arafat." They probably have few illusions of achieving this, but the act of chipping away at Israel's security gives them a sense of purpose (however warped and futile) denied to those Palestinians who play by the rules.

[ThorinOakensfield]

I know that they don't want an Israeli state, but in my post I had simply written anti Israel.
They have their objectives but they won't achieve them. And their tactics are plain stupid. Sure they scare the Israelis, but then Israel replies back with some attack.

[CM]

Ok I am going to break this up in to small posts so that I don't lose anything. Remember I don't hold a monopoly on the views of muslims. Islam is a personal interpretation. So this is how I view things.

Ok on to Suicide bombing. Before I go into that i want to mention 2 Islamic codes of conducts or things we aren't allowed to do.

1. Muslims by the decree of the prophet (SAW) are not allowed to hurt women and children. Even though he never made it a law, in Islam any thing said by the prophet (SAW) is seen as a code of conduct to follow. In one of the first offensive battles ie where the muslims attacked, it was stated, not to hurt women and children. Also not to cut down trees or damage livestock.

2. Soverignty, national or of our bodies is not ours to control. It all belongs to Allah. So Suicide is a sin. Anybody who commits suicide will end up in hell no questions asked. The act itself makes you a Kafir - some one who is not a follower of Allah.

Though a distinction should be made between Self-sacrifice and suicide. Self-sacrifice for Islam or our people is seen as a noble deed. In culture and religion. To give a current date example. In the 1947 war between India and Pakistan. 70 Pakistan soldiers strapped bombs around themseleves and lay down infront of Indian tanks to blow them up. In pakistan and Islam this is seen as self-sacrifice. Why because we were fighting a war, where we were on the side with no military arsenal at all. To ensure our freedom - or whatever - men from the Pakistan military were given the choice. 70 agreed to do so. They made the choice to sacrifice their lives for the nation.

As you can see the distinction is small, and the line is very thin between self-sacrifice and suicide. Islamic history; military mainly, is riddled with famous fighters making a last stand. That is self-sacrifice. Blowing yourself up at a disco is not. That is my opinion some differ on the issue.

[CM]

On to suicide bombing in Islamic culture. By religious definition it is not allowed. However in culture it is cheered, not because of we like to blow ourselves up, but out of sheer frustration. Also notice not all Islamic groups use suicide bombers.

In Pakistan recently 9 frenchies died, in a suicide bomber attack. That is the first time in our 55 year history that a suicide bombing has occured. Usually they are hit and run attacks. It is said that Pakistan provides military support to Kashmiri fighters. Lets take that to be true. How many have heard of a kashmiri suicide bomber? If you have, it wasn't in kashmir. They are always armed military or guerrilla attacks. An example is the one like yesterday with Kashmiri Mujahids attacked an Indian military base. They fought in and died within.

The Hizbollah has no concept of suicide bombing. The attack on the US marine base in the 80's is atributed to Hamas and not Hizbollah. Hizbollah is a proffessional military wing with backing from Iran - atleast according to many sources. Nothing officially has been accepted. Anyway back on track, they attack Israel in guerrilla style teams with military precision.

The GIA in Algeria, again no concept of suicide bombing. They attack military forces and civilains as well but always using guerilla warfare. Same with the muslim rebels in Aceh (Indonesia), along with the MLF in the Phillippines. I have never heard of a suicide bomber at all in South Asia.

The main groups involved in suicide bombings have been the Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Qaeda and PFLP. Most recently the Al-Aqsa brigade.

[CM]

Culturally the concept of suicide bombing is very very recent. I think it is a 90's thing. As in Pakistan in the 80's during the Afghan war, the emphasis was laid on the hit and run attacks. Or when attacked fight till death. This idea of blowing myself up was and is seen as a cowardly act in Pakistan, but not in the case of Palestine - explain that later.

The whole Islamic militia movement started with the PLO in the 70s correct? I wasn't even born then, and my knowledge on Islamic military organizations is more from the 80s on. Anyway the 70s saw a wave of hijackings and attacks on Israelis - Munich - but suicide bombing as it is seen today was a rare thing. It was frowned upon i think in most of the Islamic world. Maybe because in the 70's and 80's the funding for training and weaponary was abundant. Money for the Afghanistan Jihad and Kashmir was coming through every single channel possible, Pakistan is said to have spent more than 50 billion dollars in the 10 years of the jihad. And we spent none of our own money.

Back to the cultural context. Depending on the region you are from and the exact nature of the organization, suicide bombing is neither called unislamic and cowardice (In Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan and a majority of the Islamic world) or it is a necessary and often very effective aim of attacking people.

Also cultually, there fine line between self-sacrifice and suicide are blurred. Take arrmaggeddon, with Bruce Willis. When he stays behind to denotate the bomb, that is self-sacrifice in the eyes of many. However it could just as easily be considered suicide. In my opinion the cause for the act of killing him or herself is what makes the difference. If kill yourself for your nation or the world. That is self-sacrifice. If you kill yourself in a supermarket, that is suicide.

To many Muslims, the distinction when coming to Palestine is a very fine line. There is a defacto war going on. So when a bomber attacks a check point and blows himself up, is that self-sacrifice or suicide? To many including me that is suicide. However many palestinians won't agree here. They see it as a sacrifice to show Israel that they will fight back. Go figure!

[CM]

HELL!!!
just lost a whole damn post! Oh well start again

As in the other post above, you noticed those, organizations that are promoting Suicide bombing or use it are Palestinian and Al-Qaeda which gets as close to an Islamic (in relation to demographics) organization as possible. Why do they do it?

It might be cause they don't recieve support, military or otherwise like Hizbollah and the kashmir outfits. They aren't one group like the group in Indonesia. They don't have military camps for training like the GIA or Al-Qaeda. They have no support what so ever from any country or group. So the only way the can hit back is suicide bombing.

Now I had originally gone through and explained the 6 top Palestinian organizations. But i am far to tired and pissed to type it all again. So here is a list of the Palestinian organization working in fighting Israel.

1. Hamas
2. Al-Aqsa
3. Fatah
4. Tanzim
5. Islamic Jihad
6. PFLP.

I completely forgot what i wanted to type and add, after loosing that post, so if you have further question go ahead. I will explain the exact nature and ideals behind Hamas later on.