Kayless’ Guide to Multi-Classing

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:05 pm

Why do people always want to stick four fighter levels on their mages? Weapon Specialization isn’t that good (and it certainly doesn’t make up for the crap load of spells your loosing). I would make another tank character here, since you already have a mage in your party (the sorc).

Once again I must reiterate how multi-classing spell using classes is a big no-no. Your cleric should be fine without the paladin levels (or maybe just one for the paladin's Divine Grace ability).

Those two aren't my main spellcasters, my bard and sorc are they are mainly for backup and since I haven't got a real tank they can dish out and take some damage in melee.
And I like being able to cast spells with as much characters as possible

BTW With what level do you complete the game ? Don't tell me all chars end up with l 30 in a 6 ppl party . No wait. DO Tell me that it's like that.

Sorry to disappoint you but you will probably get at lvl 18 when you finish the game, without too many ecl races that is.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:35 pm

I love bards.

I am currently toying with the idea of a 12 bard (with max bardsong?) and then x fighter to beef them up - taking armored arcana all the way.

I know kayless will hate this...

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:06 pm

so, what is better, paladin3/fighterXX or fighter4/paladinXX? for the high str low dex hand-to-hand role, that is?

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:16 pm

Originally posted by Nuke
BTW With what level do you complete the game ? Don't tell me all chars end up with l 30 in a 6 ppl party . No wait. DO Tell me that it's like that.

Depends on the difficulty. Normal will get you to the mid-teens.

Originally posted by Mitch
Those two aren't my main spellcasters, my bard and sorc are they are mainly for backup and since I haven't got a real tank they can dish out and take some damage in melee.
And I like being able to cast spells with as much characters as possible

Suit yourself, but I still think another tank would serve you better.

Originally posted by Gruntboy
I love bards.

I am currently toying with the idea of a 12 bard (with max bardsong?) and then x fighter to beef them up - taking armored arcana all the way.

I know kayless will hate this...

Damn straight.

What're you thinking Grunt?!

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:26 pm

Originally posted by Mirk
so, what is better, paladin3/fighterXX or fighter4/paladinXX? for the high str low dex hand-to-hand role, that is?

Pal3/FtrXX is essentially a fighter with all the paladin non-spell-casting abilities (divine grace, etc.) while a Ftr4/PalXX is going to be a slightly tougher than normal paladin (thanks to the fighter's bonus Feats and access to Weapon Specialization). If you want to maximize your combat potential then a heavily armored Pal3/FtrXX is the way to go.

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:27 pm

I just installed the "ease of use mod" by Westley Weimer and I noticed I could give my monk 2 druid x a level barbarian I don't know why but now she kicks ass when wildshaping and raging

probably the alignment restrictions are eliminated somehow

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:47 am

Oh lord..*sob* If around l 18 is all you can get then Kayless is right about pure spellcaster thingie. And dual spellcaster class is pretty much out of the question.

But please tell me there is still hope to use such sophisticated char combos playing HoF or some mod that is a bit tougher.
Demmit I wanna get my chars all the way to l 30.

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 7:22 am

Well u don't need lvl 9 or 8 spells to complete the game u know
while having a few lvls in a melee class give u some extra bab feats and hp
And I think going to hof will take u to lvl 30 (well at least around lvl 30) or u can create for instance a 4 char party this should get u higher by the end.

U know the rule that u get less exp for killing the same enemies at higher lvl right well just don't lvl up for some time this gets u more exp and u can lvl up about four or five lvls at once.
I had all my chars on lvl 1 till I got 2 chapter 2 at which point I could lvl them up quite a few lvls!!!
I don't know if people would call this cheating but I don't cause beating chapter 1 with only lvl 1 chars is quite difficult.

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 6:37 am

another "what is better" question:

ranger1/rogue2/figherXX

rogue2 or 3/fighterXX

this is supposed to be a "stalker"- like char, relying on bows early on, and later on duel-wielding. The reason for ranger is the obvious two-weapon bonuses, and the reason for rogue is the evasion, skill points, and the extra 1d6 damage, and the occasional arterial strike, maybe. I tend to go for the ranger, for old 2ed ranger-loving sentiments.

Also, in what order should i take the classes?

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 12:58 pm

Originally posted by Mirk
another "what is better" question:

ranger1/rogue2/figherXX

rogue2 or 3/fighterXX

this is supposed to be a "stalker"- like char, relying on bows early on, and later on duel-wielding. The reason for ranger is the obvious two-weapon bonuses, and the reason for rogue is the evasion, skill points, and the extra 1d6 damage, and the occasional arterial strike, maybe. I tend to go for the ranger, for old 2ed ranger-loving sentiments.

Well 3rd edition two-weapon fighting is only really worthwhile when you've got a good sneak attack, so I would recommend a lot more rogue levels if you plan to use the technique. The classic RogXX/Rng1 combo works like magic. If you want a more combat oriented character than RogXX/Ftr4 is nice (but IMHO you'll get more bang for your buck with a RogXX/Rng1).

Of course if you ignore these, I'd go with the Rog2/Rng1/FtrXX if you're trying to recreate an AD&D ranger (though he won't be as optimized as the previous examples I stated).

Originally posted by Mirk
Also, in what order should i take the classes?

The rogue first, since he gets a lot more starting skill points than any other class.

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:30 pm

Originally posted by Nuke
Oh lord..*sob* If around l 18 is all you can get then Kayless is right about pure spellcaster thingie. And dual spellcaster class is pretty much out of the question.

But please tell me there is still hope to use such sophisticated char combos playing HoF or some mod that is a bit tougher.
Demmit I wanna get my chars all the way to l 30.

I tend to be an EXP-monger, but I only managed about L.17 or so by the end. In HoF, I took 2 char's from my first run, and made 4 new char's. At first, I was getting over 2000EXP/Goblin, but by the time I made it to the Goblin Stronghold, I got less than 200EXP. Now, my 2 old char's are at about L.20, and my 4 new ones are stagnant at about L.8 to L.9. That EXP-adjusting system sucks!

Also, the dual-class spellcaster debate still simply boils down to whether you're serious about casting spells, or just want a spell-capable archer. Too bad there wasn't an Arcane Archer class (like in the brief BG: Dark Alliance for PS2), now that was an interesting class...

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:48 am

About the exp thing in HoF. Maybe it would pay off to import only ecl chars (for example drow). Perhaps it would be a way to get a bit more exp in the long run for the rest of the party.

However I've yet to play HoF so don't mind me. XD

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:24 pm

Originally posted by Nuke
About the exp thing in HoF. Maybe it would pay off to import only ecl chars (for example drow). Perhaps it would be a way to get a bit more exp in the long run for the rest of the party.

I think it would still end up about the same because the char would get more EXP, but her penalty would only let her keep about 80% of it.

One way to keep the EXP awards high is to keep a 5 member party with some meathead char in the 6th slot. Then simply kill him off every now and then and replace him with new level 1 fodder. I guess thats just about as cheesey as the non-level-up technique.
Why couldn't they just provide more monsters at less EXP, thus keeping the total EXP per encounter constant. That would be much better, IMHO.

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 2:28 pm

ok, I was thinking of the following dual/multiclass char for my party:

1/2 orc barbxx/ftr4 - is there a "best" specific order to take these levels? i.e. should I start as a fighter and then after 4 levels switch to barb only? or get so many levels of barb, then 1 ftr, then 3 barb, etc?

tiefling rngr1/roguexx/ftr4 - is there an exp penalty associated with multiclassing as opposed to just dualclassing? what order should these levels be taken in? I want the level of ranger to get the free ambdex and dual wield, so that I can sneak attack with two short swords... is there a weapon specialization for short swords? that is why I was going to get the 4 fighter levels... what order should these levels be taken? rogue first? or would that make me lose out on the free ambdex and dual wield with the ranger level? I was also thinking this guy could be used for missle support with a bow when not sneak attacking... feasible?

human clericxx/ftr4 - I was thinking of making him my primary healer, but also wanted to use him for missle support, likely using a crossbow... so I wanted to get 4 levels of ftr for the crossbow weapon specialization. again, is this possible? and again, is there any specific optimum order to take the different levels in?

duergar fighterxx - I was thinking just straight fighter for this one... but was also considering perhaps some rogue levels as well to take advantage of his natural abilities... any thoughts on which would be better? (I also am thinking of this for a future party that will have less char, and was thinking of giving some rogue levels to a fighter class to eliminate the rogue from the party)

drow wizardxx - the final certain piece of the party (though I am considering using a Tiefling here or a plain Human here instead of drow, though I like the idea of the spell resistance for a char typically considered weak when it comes to hit points, thoughts on race?) I am slightly worried about level progression to get access to spells, since this is my only hardcore spellcaster...

I was also considering a human barb1/druidxx - so that I could get the rage and use rage while shapeshifted... but, I am not sure if this char will really add much to the party. I already have 2 tanks, and I already have 1 healer and a mage... would a barb1/druidxx/ftr4 be worthwhile? any thoughts on whether this last guy should be included or not?

thanks for the input.

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 2:43 pm

Now I havent read all the posts in this thread...

But, Im thinking for my 2nd group I want to multi-class my thief. I want him to have a decent amount of hit points, so I think mage and cleric are out of the question for the multi class..

Can you give me some good suggestions on what works well with some levels of the theif?

And more over, what race this mult classed theif should be.

Ive figured out my other members already and Ive got everything covered (healing, fighting, wizardry, etc), so covering all the bases is not an issue here.

Thanks. I usually dont ask for suggestions and discover on my own, but I dont want to get too far and realize Ive got a lemon for a theif.

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 2:54 pm

Originally posted by Tybaltus
Now I havent read all the posts in this thread...

Thanks. I usually dont ask for suggestions and discover on my own, but I dont want to get too far and realize Ive got a lemon for a theif.

Shame on you , Tybbs!!!

It wouldn't be that big of deal to replace him if he turns out to be a lemon. The Ranger 1/Rogue X standard seems to be pretty popular, are you looking for something different?

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:12 pm

Originally posted by Skooter327
Shame on you , Tybbs!!!

It wouldn't be that big of deal to replace him if he turns out to be a lemon. The Ranger 1/Rogue X standard seems to be pretty popular, are you looking for something different?

Heh. Well this thread is quite long.

Hmmm..no that could work. What race do you recommend?

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:21 pm

@Tybs, you would need to choose either human or half elf or a class that favours either ranger or rogue to avoid the penalty, such as a Tiefling

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 12:06 am

Originally posted by Krysalyn
ok, I was thinking of the following dual/multiclass char for my party:

1/2 orc barbxx/ftr4 - is there a "best" specific order to take these levels? i.e. should I start as a fighter and then after 4 levels switch to barb only? or get so many levels of barb, then 1 ftr, then 3 barb, etc?

A good solid tank. I like to start off with fighter levels since they give you bonus Feats, which are a big help especially in the early stages of the game.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
tiefling rngr1/roguexx/ftr4 - is there an exp penalty associated with multiclassing as opposed to just dualclassing? what order should these levels be taken in?

Three classes will indeed give you an exp penalty (unless two of your classes are within one level of each other). I would drop the either the ranger or fighter levels. One or the other works good, but having both will give you a hefty exp penalty. The classic RogXX/Rng1 works best, IMHO.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
I want the level of ranger to get the free ambdex and dual wield, so that I can sneak attack with two short swords... is there a weapon specialization for short swords?

Yep.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
that is why I was going to get the 4 fighter levels... what order should these levels be taken? rogue first? or would that make me lose out on the free ambdex and dual wield with the ranger level? I was also thinking this guy could be used for missle support with a bow when not sneak attacking... feasible?

Always take the rogue first, since they have the most starting skill points. It doesn't matter what order you take the ranger; you won't lose the free ambidexterity/two-weapon fighting. But as I said before, taking both ranger and the fighter levels is just too much (the benefits just aren't worth the exp. penalty you'll receive). Either drop the 4 fighter levels or forget about the single ranger level.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
human clericxx/ftr4 - I was thinking of making him my primary healer, but also wanted to use him for missle support, likely using a crossbow... so I wanted to get 4 levels of ftr for the crossbow weapon specialization. again, is this possible? and again, is there any specific optimum order to take the different levels in?

Word to the wise (as I have stated again and again on this thread) multi-classing spell-casters is a big no-no. A single classed cleric is going to kick the ass of a multi-classed cleric (unless you've only taken a single level of something else).

Originally posted by Krysalyn
duergar fighterxx - I was thinking just straight fighter for this one... but was also considering perhaps some rogue levels as well to take advantage of his natural abilities... any thoughts on which would be better? (I also am thinking of this for a future party that will have less char, and was thinking of giving some rogue levels to a fighter class to eliminate the rogue from the party)

You don't need any rogue levels (at least if you want this guy to be a frontline fighter).

Originally posted by Krysalyn
drow wizardxx - the final certain piece of the party (though I am considering using a Tiefling here or a plain Human here instead of drow, though I like the idea of the spell resistance for a char typically considered weak when it comes to hit points, thoughts on race?) I am slightly worried about level progression to get access to spells, since this is my only hardcore spellcaster...

Most characters with ECL (drow, aasimar, tieflings, etc.) aren't worthwhile. They level much slower than the others and that's not a good thing. Just about any class without a Int penalty will make a good wizard (since they should stay single-classed).

Originally posted by Krysalyn
I was also considering a human barb1/druidxx - so that I could get the rage and use rage while shapeshifted... but, I am not sure if this char will really add much to the party. I already have 2 tanks, and I already have 1 healer and a mage... would a barb1/druidxx/ftr4 be worthwhile? any thoughts on whether this last guy should be included or not?

While a druid/barbarian is a nice combo, you're absolutely right about it being an unnecessary character. However, since you have 2 tanks, a cleric, wizard, and a rogue already, you can usually afford to have a more off-the-wall character here. But a third tank (if not a druid then maybe a paladin) never hurts.

Special Note: I see a lot of people tacking 4 fighter levels onto their characters just so they can get Weapon Specialization. I hate to say it, but Weapon Specialization just isn't that good. It's nice for a tank character, but doesn't abrogate all other concerns. Weapon Specialization is not good for a wizard. Weapon Specialization is not good for any character who isn't going to be a frontline fighter.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 12:09 am

Originally posted by Tybaltus
But, Im thinking for my 2nd group I want to multi-class my thief. I want him to have a decent amount of hit points, so I think mage and cleric are out of the question for the multi class...

As Skooter said, the rogXX/rng1 works quite well (especially when dual-wielding shortswords). Human is probably the best race, though halfings are okay too.