What is your religion?

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:16 pm

Originally posted by GrimReaper:
Have all of our Christian friends run out of arguments? I'm wondering because there seem to have been a lot of atheists posting but the last Christian posting told me that God loves me. So, anyone out there?

Which people do you know are atheists, @Grim?

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:26 pm

Originally posted by GrimReaper:
I still think he could be held responsible.

Well, this is interesting. Lots of people around here have stated that God is merely a figment used to provide comfort to people terrified of life or death or hell or whatever. It seems however that there are plenty of folks as well who use God as the blame target for everything. How convenient to blame God for the evils of the world. Takes the responsibility nicely off of us, doesn't it?

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:30 pm

Originally posted by GrimReaper:
Have all of our Christian friends run out of arguments?

Not at all. It's just that expressing arguments to brick walls doesn't do much good. Most people seem to have their minds made up with no openness. Arguing against stubbornness is a waste of time and energy. That's why I haven't posted any more counter-arguments in here, and I won't post in religion topics anymore period.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:34 pm

Don't get carried away, @Loner. Grim's clearly trying to provoke replies. I think you've made an excellent case for your argument, before (though it's not mine), and I suspect Grim will have a hard time fitting it into his perception of Christianity.

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 8:16 pm

@fable
About the atheists, I meant that the number of posts arguing for Christianity seem to have become less and less in number while the number of posts for atheism seem to have become more and more in number. And thank you for pointing out that I am merely trying to provoke replies. I mean nothing I type to be offensive and I'm sorry if it sounds that way.

@loner72
First, my posts are something like this: "if the Bible was right, then why is this like so?" Basically I mean, for the sake of my arguments, we must assume that the Bible is correct. I do not believe in God and so I cannot blame him for anything, I merely state that if there is a god, perhaps he could be to blame. Also, I don't think that I was merely placing the blame on God to take it off of us. I feel that I put up some pretty valid arguments as to why it could be God's fault.
Second, you seem to be getting frustrated. You have resorted to calling me a brick wall.

Anyways, despite what you seem to think, I am fairly open in this subject. I am strong in my beliefs (as I'm sure you are) and maybe that is considered closed to you. The point is, I think I can back up my beliefs, as most people do, and therefore we have a debate. I am not trying to sound close-minded, I am merely stating what I believe and why, and I am trying to get other people to do the same.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 3:25 am

Originally posted by loner72:
Well, this is interesting. Lots of people around here have stated that God is merely a figment used to provide comfort to people terrified of life or death or hell or whatever. It seems however that there are plenty of folks as well who use God as the blame target for everything. How convenient to blame God for the evils of the world. Takes the responsibility nicely off of us, doesn't it?

if i am paralysed then i cannot be blamed for not saving the drowning girl. if however i am a good swimmer and i just watched her die then i would be morally accountable for her death - no?

the same goes for god. normally god is seen as very or all powerfull. he is therefore capable of saving many people who are suffering and dying - but he is not saving them. therefore he is either not good, not that powerfull or not there. which will it be?

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 7:28 am

And that is why if there is a God, he should be considered neutral.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 7:38 am

God, Satan, hell ect. were made up by chruches so they could scare people into giving them their money.

Please don't be offended by this if you believe in God.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 7:49 am

Originally posted by Tom:
if i am paralysed then i cannot be blamed for not saving the drowning girl. if however i am a good swimmer and i just watched her die then i would be morally accountable for her death - no?

the same goes for god. normally god is seen as very or all powerfull. he is therefore capable of saving many people who are suffering and dying - but he is not saving them. therefore he is either not good, not that powerfull or not there. which will it be?

I'd suggest you aren't arguing against a god or gods, but against a single concept of a god--what might be called "God as Paladin." The all-good, all-powerful knight, a sort of immortal Lohengrin, or a supernal Superman. If someone has all that power, and views the universe just as we do, and can act as we do, why don't they?

The problem as I see it is that a supernal being may not see the universe in the same terms we do, especially since our own senses and the ideas drawn from them are inevitably limited and incomplete. If god is all-knowing, how do we know that even pain and "evil" don't result ultimately in the achievement of something?

I'm reminded of an Indian fable in which six blind men stood around an elephant, each feeling a part of it, each concluding that the elephant was like something they'd seen while still sighted--a snake from its tail, a wall from its side, etc. They argued incessantly. If god is all-knowing, how can we presume to understand any purpose of such a being? And if god is all-knowing, what sort of colossal, overweaning pride it is for any human to dare lay claim to speak for such a being, or offer laws in its name, to instruct its fellow humans in exactly how to act...!

But then, who says that god(s) is interested in achievement? Perhaps there is no purpose as such to god. Perhaps god is simply that which moves through all things as a will that exists: the Tao. Personally, I don't think this is god, but I'm not at all convinced such a force as the Tao doesn't exist.

Or consider the Gnostic concept of god. A prime deity made the universe, then went off to do something else. Meanwhile, a number of lesser creations of this being decided to lay claim to being God, and created the world's religions. They trapped the free particles of life created by the true creator, forced them into forms of flesh, and instructed them in a series of false laws. According to the Gnostics, the true goal of humanity should be to seek understanding that goes beyond the flesh, so that liberation may occur after death. In any case, it *does* answer your posed question, Tom.

There are three possible solutions, in fact: one based on human fallibility, and two (the Tao, the Gnosis) based on extremely different concepts of God.

rapier · Post by **rapier** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 7:51 am

Originally posted by Rob-hin:
God, Satan, hell ect. were made up by chruches so they could scare people into giving them their money.

Exactly!

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:05 am

Originally posted by fable:
I'd suggest you aren't arguing against a god or gods, but against a single concept of a god--what might be called "God as Paladin." The all-good, all-powerful knight, a sort of immortal Lohengrin, or a supernal Superman.

I dont know how to phrase what i have said differently. I say the are three options for a theist when fased with the problem of evil. God not good, god not all powerfull or god not there. im not sure if you agree with me from what you say.

If god is all-knowing, how do we know that even pain and "evil" don't result ultimately in the achievement of something?

this is the option that god is not that powerfull. that we should go through alot of pain some we come out better sounds ok as long as god dont have the power to make us better with out the pain.

But then, who says that god(s) is interested in achievement? Perhaps there is no purpose as such to god. Perhaps god is simply that which moves through all things as a will that exists: the Tao.

here it seems god is neither good nor powerfull.

According to the Gnostics, the true goal of humanity should be to seek understanding that goes beyond the flesh, so that liberation may occur after death./QUOTE]

I dont know which category this fals into - maybe all three

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:13 am

Originally posted by Tom:
if i am paralysed then i cannot be blamed for not saving the drowning girl. if however i am a good swimmer and i just watched her die then i would be morally accountable for her death - no?

the same goes for god. normally god is seen as very or all powerfull. he is therefore capable of saving many people who are suffering and dying - but he is not saving them. therefore he is either not good, not that powerfull or not there. which will it be?

Read the Book of Job.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:38 am

Its the cataclysm!!!
The gods have gone. The dragons are coming.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:44 am

Originally posted by loner72:
Read the Book of Job.

sorry no time. cant you just tell me?

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:55 am

I wrote:
If god is all-knowing, how do we know that even pain and "evil" don't result ultimately in the achievement of something?

Tom responded:
this is the option that god is not that powerfull. that we should go through alot of pain some we come out better sounds ok as long as god dont have the power to make us better with out the pain.

I think my point is being missed. @Tom, how do we know that everything we consider negative isn't part of some concept we don't understand? If pain is eliminated, growth is eliminated. Growth is not necessary; we could be created perfect. Suppose we just can't perceive the reasons we weren't created perfect?

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:00 am

Maybe we weren't created.
Maybe I am god.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:01 am

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
Maybe we weren't created.
Maybe I am god.

@Thorin, you keep saying that, but you have to prove your deific powers by giving us each a free BMW with sunroofs.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:02 am

Originally posted by fable:
I think my point is being missed. @Tom, how do we know that everything we consider negative isn't part of some concept we don't understand? If pain is eliminated, growth is eliminated. Growth is not necessary; we could be created perfect. Suppose we just can't perceive the reasons we weren't created perfect?

what you are saying is ofcourse possible. that we are not smart enough to figure out whats going on. this is an arguement used alot as a finnal stand by many religious people.
But notice that ANY theory no matter how weird could use this arguement.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:03 am

But I want to make you suffer first, then everybody can have a honda civic.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:05 am

Originally posted by fable:
@Thorin, you keep saying that, but you have to prove your deific powers by giving us each a free BMW with sunroofs.

What about a cupholder?