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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 12:07 am
by Sailor Saturn
Originally posted by Curdis
IIRC most modern translations are made from GREEK manuscripts(Which may or may not be closest to the original Hebrew) which may or may not be transcriptions/translations of earlier Hebrew texts.
Okay, first off, the original manuscripts of the New Testament are in Greek while the original manuscripts of the Old Testament are in Hebrew and Aramaic(sp?), and so, the modern translations are from the Hebrew/Aramaic for the Old Testament and Greek for the New Testament. You should be able to find details on this in the front of some, if not all, NIV, NLT, NAS, etc.
As I have suggested in another thread a parallel bible is a good investment if you are interested in attempting to decypher meanings. The one I had contained the American Standard, King James, Good News, and a semi literal greek translation (Attempted to represent the closest meanings by word and sentence).
I have one somewhere of the New Testament that has literal greek and New King James. However, I would highly recommend avoiding the King James Version. Aside from things such as the Living Bible, it is one of the worst translations, partially because of it's old style language which is more difficult to understand.

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:51 am
by Ode to a Grasshopper
IIRC Lilith was also the first vampire.

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:53 am
by VoodooDali
Hmm, the part of the passage I found more interesting was all the information about the marriage customs of the early Hebrews. The Lilith story is an interesting aside. (If I only still lived in Brooklyn, I could ask a couple Hasidic friends what they know about the Lilith story). On the other hand, the Lilith story is interesting to think about since it shows a link between the Babylonian religion and theirs. I'll post info about the guy who wrote that passage when I find it--I didn't save the link, I'll have to wade through the history folder, ugh.

I wish my Dad was still alive, he went to seminary and knew ancient Greek and Hebrew. He would have had some interesting things to say about this...

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 9:41 am
by fable
Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
IIRC Lilith was also the first vampire.
Isn't this more of an myth's myth? I've seen it claimed before, but I haven't seen any evidence that Lilith actually received this honor. ;)

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 10:35 am
by Georgi
Originally posted by fable
Isn't this more of an myth's myth? I've seen it claimed before, but I haven't seen any evidence that Lilith actually received this honor.
Hmmm. I don't know about the later literature regarding Lilith, but in the Alphabet of Ben Sira, Lilith isn't vampiric. However, in the various early magical texts, lilith demons are accused of all kinds of things including drinking blood. Since the two versions of lilith seem to have been assimilated to some extent, it's not surprising Lilith has acquired that reputation ;)

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 10:41 am
by Georgi
Originally posted by VoodooDali
Hmm, the part of the passage I found more interesting was all the information about the marriage customs of the early Hebrews. The Lilith story is an interesting aside. (If I only still lived in Brooklyn, I could ask a couple Hasidic friends what they know about the Lilith story). On the other hand, the Lilith story is interesting to think about since it shows a link between the Babylonian religion and theirs. I'll post info about the guy who wrote that passage when I find it--I didn't save the link, I'll have to wade through the history folder, ugh.
I agree, Lilith is digressing from the marriage topic somewhat... Although this quote from the notes to Grave's and Patai's version of the story is interesting...
"Lilith typifies the Anath-worshipping Canaanite women, who were permitted pre-nuptial promiscuity. Time after time the prophets denounced Israelite women for following Canaanite practices; at first, apparently, with the priests' approval -- since their habit of dedicating to God the fees thus earned is expressly forbidden in Deuteronomy XXIII:18."
(I found it on the web here and this is quite a good site on Lilith) :)

When it comes to popular religion and magic, there are quite a few similarities between the traditions of the various religions. :)

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:43 pm
by frogus
*BUMP*

@MM are you satisfied with the way in which me, Ast and Beldin have gotten rid of your earlier arguments? any new thoughts?

and I would like to propose another question here:

Do you believe that an unmarried couple can have a relationship as rich, loving, respecting, sexually fulfilling and stable as if they were married?

If not, why not?

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 4:38 pm
by Georgi
Originally posted by frogus
Do you believe that an unmarried couple can have a relationship as rich, loving, respecting, sexually fulfilling and stable as if they were married?
Yep. ;)

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 6:17 pm
by fable
Originally posted by Georgi
"Lilith typifies the Anath-worshipping Canaanite women, who were permitted pre-nuptial promiscuity.
Just a reminder, again, to take anything written by Graves with a large dose of salt. Once his works like The White Goddess were debunked in print, he admitted readily enough to having made quite a bit of his "facts" up to suit his own poetic mythos. This should not be read as a criticism of his cultural insights; but he tended to create information to back up his opinions when no information could be found.

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 7:21 pm
by EMINEM
Originally posted by frogus
*BUMP*

@MM are you satisfied with the way in which me, Ast and Beldin have gotten rid of your earlier arguments? any new thoughts?

and I would like to propose another question here:

Do you believe that an unmarried couple can have a relationship as rich, loving, respecting, sexually fulfilling and stable as if they were married?

If not, why not?
You must be kidding. I just haven't had the time to respond because of real life obligations. Be patient; my rebuttals will surely come.

As to your second question... do you have a real life example of such a one?

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 7:50 pm
by fable
Originally posted by EMINEM
As to your second question... do you have a real life example of such a one?
Well, in answer to that, I can only point to my wife and myself. We married after living together for three years only to satisfy our families and ease legal arrangements. Such sacraments as exist lie in our hearts and minds, not in a minister's vows. No minister can truly wed a couple who are unwed at core. No minister can truly wed a couple who are already wed inside.

Sounds sentimental, but it's true, at least for us. So there's your example. :)

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 10:06 pm
by EMINEM
Originally posted by fable


Well, in answer to that, I can only point to my wife and myself. We married after living together for three years only to satisfy our families and ease legal arrangements. Such sacraments as exist lie in our hearts and minds, not in a minister's vows. No minister can truly wed a couple who are unwed at core. No minister can truly wed a couple who are already wed inside.

Sounds sentimental, but it's true, at least for us. So there's your example. :)
Perhaps, but until you were married, you had no wife, and she had no husband. Just words to some, maybe, but powerful words nonetheless, inapplicable to any relationship outside of the bonds of marriage. In any case, I seriously doubt three years was enough time to fulfill all the requirements Mr. Frogus mentioned.

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 10:53 pm
by fable
Originally posted by EMINEM
In any case, I seriously doubt three years was enough time to fulfill all the requirements Mr. Frogus mentioned.
You've asked for an example, @Eminem. If you're not going to believe when it's presented to you, why bother asking for one?

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 11:03 pm
by Gwalchmai
Is five years enough with an additional five years and counting of married life?

Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 11:32 pm
by EMINEM
No offense intended, Mr. Fable. It's a general observation; I just don't think that any relationship can be rich, loving, respecting, sexually fulfilling and stable (Frogus' words) without a serious and sober public commitment (that is, with witnesses) on the part of both parties, and years and years of hard work, forgiveness, compromise, re-commitment, and trying to understand one another's differences. I also happen to think that marriage relationships have a much better chance of becoming rich, loving, respecting, sexually fulfilling, and stable, than un-married ones. Time is the important factor in both cases, and marriages endure better than common-law partnerships.

@G-man: best ask your wife that, not me! :)

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2002 12:23 am
by fable
No offense taken, @Eminem. :) But if you do ask for an example of something and it's provided, I would think courtesy required something more than saying, in effect, "Sorry, I don't believe it." ;) I think you might be on safer ground if you didn't deny the existence of committed non-married relationships, and just claimed that marriage offered a greater chance for commitment to evolve over time. Only my POV, of course.

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2002 5:28 am
by Beldin
Originally posted by EMINEM

As to your second question... do you have a real life example of such a one?
YES, SIR ! ;) I have an example, sir !

Myself.

8 years and counting, unmarried, 2 children, no problems so far.

In these 8 years 2 of my friends married and got divorced after about 3 years, and while I'm typing this 2 more are getting ready to break up - 1 of them married the other not.

SO I can't really say if marriage is good or bad for a partnership. I think it just depends on the people in a partnership - not on their martial status.

@fable: since I'm reading cracks about your age (and dentures) all around - JUST how old are you ?

@M&M: How long are you married now ?

No Worries !

Beldin :cool:

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2002 6:07 am
by Ode to a Grasshopper
Good on ya Beldin, for doing things because that's the way that works for you, and not just because society tells you to behave.

I think Fable's around 50 or so.

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2002 7:31 am
by EMINEM
Originally posted by Astafas


I can't see why your question has to be answered first. Logically, there could be rights and wrongs, or advantages and disadvantages, both in premarital and in marital sex.

A few comments regarding the supposed research:

1) Premarital means "before marriage". Therefor, you could very well be of the age of 30 and still have premarital sex. Marital means "in marriage". Therefor, depending on national legislation and various religious beliefs, you can be relatively young and still have marital sex. You say a correlation was found between early sexual experience and dissatisfaction in marriages, unhappiness with the level of sexual intimacy, and a prevalence of low self-esteem. Don't you think the problem rather lies in bad sexual experience, regardless of the moment in life? Early sexual experience implies sexual experience. All experience is either good or bad (well, maybe one could argue for neutral experience...). So by having early sexual experience you necessarily expose yourself for the risk of bad sexual experience. But the same goes for having sexual experience at a later stage in life. Should we recommend everyone to stop having sex?

2) You say that sex is an art that is learned best in the safe environment of marriage. What makes a 20 year long marriage safer than a 20 year long partnership? You say that in healthy marriages, sex takes its natural place beside the intellectual, emotional and practical aspects of life and that married couples spend less time in bed than they do in conversation, in problem solving, and in emotional communion. Is this not also the case in healthy partnerships outside the bonds of marriage? You say that the "lie" that premarital sex prepares you for marriage denies the fact that sexual happiness grows only through years of intimate relationship and that the height of sexual pleasure, according to psychologists, usually comes after ten to twenty years of marriage. Do you really think you have to be married to have an intimate relationship? The difference in sexual pleasure has to depend on whether the fact that you're married turns you on or not. Since this is the personal preferences of the psychologists in question or the people partipating in their research, I find it hard to object.

3) This has to be the very personal opinion of the journalist and hardly the result of a research. I agree that, for myself at least, good sex requires trust. His suggestion as to where to find trust is once again a personal opinion, though.

4) You say that researchers found that sexually active teenagers are more likely to be prone to alcohol abuse and illegal drugs, and are more likely to have trouble in school. They reported that sexually active girls were more likely to be depressed, have low self esteem, feel lonely or attempt suicide. Could it possibly be that teenagers prone to alcohol abuse and illegal drugs and who have trouble in school are more likely to have sexual activity? Just like they are more likely to be depressed, have low self esteem, feel lonely and attempt suicide? Or should this research result be understood as that all these problems started because of sexual activity? No alcohol or illegal drugs were involved in the first sexual activity? These teenagers were all in good mental health, had a high self esteem, had lots of friends (and therefor never felt lonely), wouldn't ever dream of suicide and then, suddenly, they fell into the horrors of sexual activity after which everything in their life fell apart?

5) Use a condom.

6) You believe two persons in a partnership outside the bonds of marriage have sex with everyone who's willing? You believe no married person ever is unfaithful?

7) Marital sex isn't an expression of freedom either. Or do you think so?

8) As you said, this point is hard to understand for someone outside the Biblical worldview. Thus I will not comment the validity of the argument.

I think my question needs to be addressed first because no satisfactory answer has been given as to why pre-marital sex should be preferred over a monogamous marriage relationship, where sex is unquestionably safer, and intuitively more ideal.

1. I recommend everyone to exercise their self control and be more patient, and not buy into the lie that sex prepares you for marriage - it does not, because successful marriages have less to do with sex and more to do with communication and understanding. To reiterate Saturn, sexual intimacy is the icing on the cake, and not the cake itself.

2. Do I think you have to be married to have an intimate relationship? Of course not. My point is that you're more likely to have a safe, secure, and long-lasting relationship if you're married, as opposed to just living together. For although 50% of marriages end in divorce, the percentage of failed common-law relationships is even higher. Serious relationships need to be anchored by serious promises. This kind of reminds me of something the late CEO of Wendy's told to a class of grade 9s before he died. His biggest regret was not finishing high school, even though he had billion in the bank and owned a three thousand restaurants. When asked why he regretted this decision despite his incredible success, he replied that if he finished high school, "I'd have 6000 restaurants, and 2 billion in the bank!"

3. I'll skip this point, witty as it is.

4. The research findings are clear; question begging will not change the results. First came the sexual promiscuity, then came the depression, anxiety, alcohol abuse, illegal use of drugs... In any case, no research is necessary to recognize the effects sexual activity can wreck on young, immature, and impressionable minds and hearts. The psychological, emotional, and spiritual damage sex has on those not ready for it can be painfully obvious, and no psychological journals are required to tell us this. "Train wrecks waiting to happen on the way to nowhere," to quote Chantal Kreviazik (sp?)

5. Condoms provided virtually no protection from STDs. A study from Florida looked at couples in which one partner was HIV positive and the other was negative. They used condoms as protection during intercourse. After 18 months, 17% of the previously uninfected partners were HIV positive. That is a one-in-six chance - the same as in Russian roulette.

Condoms are inherently untrustworthy. The FDA allows as many as one in 250 to be defective. Condoms are often stored and shipped at unsafe temperatures which weakens the integrity of the latex rubber causing breaks and ruptures. Condoms will break 8% of the time and slip off 7% of the time. There are just so many pitfalls in condom use that you just can't expect immature teenagers to use them properly. And even if they do, they are still at risk.

If you knew (and you probably won't cuz he or she will not tell you) that the person with whom you'll be having sex carries a venereal disease, would you still go through with it with only .5 millimetres of latex to keep you from being infected? STDs are so common nowadays that it is not an exaggeration to say that most people who regularly have sex outside of marriage WILL contract a sexually transmitted disease.

6. See #2 above. I agree that a successful marriage depends a great deal on the spiritual and emotional maturity of the people involved, but I also think that a solemn pledge sanctified by God and seen by close family and friends help (but certainly not guarantee) the couple to remain faithful to their vows.

7. I think there is a certain, palpable freedom from guilt, worry, and societal pressure within marital sexual relationships.

8. Even though I'm speaking from the Biblical worldview, I think what I've been trying to express is reasonable, not to mention the traditional view held by most North Americans up until a few decades ago; that waiting for marriage to have sex is better and safer than the alternative.

Oh yeah... how long have I been married? I'm not. I'm 22, just recently graduated from university, and more in love with Aerie and Viconia than any real life females I know. :rolleyes: :(

Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2002 8:26 am
by fable
Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Good on ya Beldin, for doing things because that's the way that works for you, and not just because society tells you to behave.

I think Fable's around 50 or so.
I am indeed 50, but only for part of a year or so. ;)