GameBanshee Forums

Originally posted by Georgi:
<STRONG>Not so sure about that, exactly this kind of thing is still used by some people to justify their prejudices. I do get what you're saying... but couldn't that apply just as easily to any other part of the Bible? Isn't that manipulating what the Bible says to fit the way you live, rather than living according to the Bible?</STRONG>

No. It's understanding the book. Just as if one were to analyze a piece of fiction, or poetry. I know there are people who manipulate the Bible in a way, like saying "the Bible says not to judge," and leaving out the harsher things they don't like. If I live "according to the Bible," as you say, I wouldn't be in school, I'd be married, barefoot and pregnant, because the Bible says that's what women were supposed to do (the Old Testament, anyway). I would be the property of my nearest male relative. But I know that those kind of things are cultural, not theological. You have to know how to separate the two, and the only way to do that is to actively study the books, in a scholarly way.

Yes, people frequently use certain passages to justify prejudices; that's exactly my point. It has to be recognized and accepted that many things are specific to societal conditions, and not necessarily the will of God.

@Loner unfortunately I think Christians who are as openminded as you are in the minority Incidentally the person who told me that the only way to God is through Jesus was in no way badly-informed, but the daughter of a C of E vicar, lifelong and dedicated Christian.

@Georgi: A person can be a lifelong and dedicated Christian and still not know the Bible as a scholar would know it. What I've been trying to say is, yes, people do take certain passages out of context. People can take John or Paul and say that a non-Christian who volunteers at nursing homes and gives clothing and blankets to the local homeless shelter and builds a food bank, will go to hell for not believing in Christ. That's due to their ignorance of the source of the material. (I say ignorance simply meaning lack of knowledge, not as an insult.)

Again, I'm not saying the Gospel writers didn't intend to say non-Christians wouldn't be saved. That's exactly what they meant. BUT they were speaking to, and out of, their life-situation (what scholars call sitz im leben).

And I'm also not saying that ministers, priests, etc. are exempt from this kind of ignorance. Some of the stuff I hear from the pulpit makes me wonder what seminary the guy went to.

I feel really bad that so many people have had negative experiences with Christian beliefs

@Loner This person (one of my housemates, actually) goes to numerous Bible study groups etc., I don't think she quotes brief passages out of context.

I don't hold it specifically against Christianity (although that's what I have the most experience of), as much as against organised religion in general, that it tends towards exclusivity and causes a lot of conflict. If every theist just believed what they wanted, and let everyone else believe whatever they wanted, I'd be a lot happier.

Oh, that gets on my nerves, the tendency to proselytize. Which stems from the same thing, I guess - if no one religion is considered to be better than another, then why try and convert people?

I don't mean out of context within the passage; I mean out of historical/cultural context.

I don't beat people over the head with a Bible. I don't think one religion is just as good as another either. If I thought that I wouldn't claim association with any religion at all. But what I do have respect for is the human mind, and I'm not about to say Buddha was just some flake. Like I said, there is wisdom in all traditions.

Like I said, people who should know about the Bible can (and frequently do) still misinterpret it. You can go to a Bible study and hear all kinds of wrong things. You can go to a class -- offered by a church -- and hear things like, all non-Christians will go to hell, because the Bible says so. A good institution of higher learning will be more scholarly about it, that's why I say everyone who reads the Bible should take classes at a college or university if they really want to understand it.

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>I don't beat people over the head with a Bible. I don't think one religion is just as good as another either. If I thought that I wouldn't claim association with any religion at all. But what I do have respect for is the human mind, and I'm not about to say Buddha was just some flake. Like I said, there is wisdom in all traditions.</STRONG>

The way I see it, you either accept the validity of other religions or you don't. If you do, then other religions might not be as good as Christianity for you personally, but they are nevertheless a path to God. If you don't, then you're saying that Christianity is the "one true way" to God, albeit that other holy writings might say one or two things you agree with.

@Georgi, without meaning in any way to put words in Loner's mouth (which she'd probably just spit back in my face, along with cheerios and remnants of bread pudding), I might suggest that this is where the phrase "a measure of doubt" enters the picture. Some people are very convinced of their religious views--I am; but mine are polytheistic, and therefore inclusive. Loner's religion is monotheistic, hence exclusive. The fact that she can strike a balance that permits a degree of respect for other views says much about her broadmindedness and sense of the "big picture." Some Christians conclude that many religions are right, but that Christianity is the *most* right, the direct path, as it were. Loner, without in any sense implying disrespect, would I be right in assuming this is true of you?

*deep breath* Okay, let me try to explain this, without intending offense to anyone:

In my belief, Jesus Christ is the incarnated Wisdom of God. This is the Wisdom through which all creation, this world and the entire cosmos, matter and spirit, was created (Prv 8:22-31 and Jn 1:1-4). Now, every created human being possesses the capacity for wisdom, by virtue of having been created with a logical, reasoning mind. Every person in any culture possesses this capacity. Therefore, I see that Christ, as Wisdom, dwells in every person. Even though they do not acknowledge Christ. Their capacity for knowledge and reason is Christ dwelling in them. Therefore, when the Bible says no one can be saved except through Christ, this, as I see it, is what it means. You won't find this specifically in scripture, but Christian theologians have been discussing and arguing this for centuries.

I'm sure people will be offended at this. Oh well.

I repeat: Anyone who wants to know what the New Testament really says about who will get to heaven, please, get hold of a Bible somewhere and read Matthew 25:1-45. I can't see how a person who has dedicated his/her life to loving others will perish forever based on this teaching of Jesus. The Catholic teaching is that "persons of good will" who do not accept Christ will get to heaven (Pope John Paul II in Crossing the Threshold of Hope), by virtue of the fact that they have shown love to others. Hell is separation from God. God is love. Therefore, hell is really a continuation of the separation from Love that a person has maintained throughout his/her earthly life. If an atheist has loved in life, he/she will come into the presence of Love after death.

A scribe once asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was. Did Jesus say "To be baptized and go to a Christian church every Sunday?" No!!!!! What He said was this: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart...and you shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these" (Mk 12:28-34, full passage). Now, an atheist might not have the first part down, but as long as the second is there, I really don't see the problem. Because (again, according to Mt 25:1-45) to love other human beings is the same as loving God. Even if a person doesn't know or realize or accept that.

I hope this has been clear and makes a little more sense.

Very eloquent

I see your reasoning but i can say that your philosiphy is not a commonly held one, you might when it all comes down to it be correct but not many christians would accept what you are saying.

BTW i like your thinking

*hands on hips* Then perhaps they should all get a Ph.D. in theology

...or maybe you just haven't met them yet

Thanks Sleep

[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>
...or maybe you just haven't met them yet
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]</STRONG>

It is a distinct possibly.

@Loner that makes more sense but then why does one need religion at all?

One more thing.
@ Anybody I flamed unintentionally or intentionally I mean in no way any disrespect or anything to you. I apologize for gettting a bit out of hand. That's that.

Loner writes:
A scribe once asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was. Did Jesus say "To be baptized and go to a Christian church every Sunday?" No!!!!! What He said was this: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart...and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

@Loner, while I applaud your sentiments, I have to note that there were a group of commandments that Jesus (as a contemporary Jew) felt were important to follow. And I'm afraid the big ten, so to speak, don't look well at the idea of "other" gods being worshipped at all.

However, I would agree with you, God is love/total integration, while hell is complete separation. I still find it impossible to grasp that the experiences leading to a person preferring some kind of hate/fear/separation in the mote that is a human lifetime would condemn them to eternity--millions upon millions upon millions of years--of complete and utter separation. That seems, well, a bit excessive.

Brother will kill brother
Spilling blood across the land
Killing for religion
Something I don't understand
Fools like me, who cross the sea
And come to foreign lands
Ask the sheep, for their beliefs
Do you kill on God's command?

A country that's divided
Surely will not stand
My past erased, no more disgrace
No foolish naive stand

The end is near, it's crystal clear
Part of the master plan
Don't look now to Israel
It might be your homelands

Holy wars

Upon my podium, as the
Know it all scholar
Down in my seat of judgement
Gavel's bang, uphold the law
Up on my soapbox, a leader
Out to change the world
Down in my pulpit as the holier
Than-thou-could-be-messenger of God

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>@Loner, while I applaud your sentiments, I have to note that there were a group of commandments that Jesus (as a contemporary Jew) felt were important to follow. And I'm afraid the big ten, so to speak, don't look well at the idea of "other" gods being worshipped at all.

However, I would agree with you, God is love/total integration, while hell is complete separation. I still find it impossible to grasp that the experiences leading to a person preferring some kind of hate/fear/separation in the mote that is a human lifetime would condemn them to eternity--millions upon millions upon millions of years--of complete and utter separation. That seems, well, a bit excessive.</STRONG>

It's not my sentiment, it's in the Bible. I didn't just make it up out of my head to reflect my own sentiments.

As far as the 10 Commandments forbidding the worship of other gods: Well, yeah. Of course. Doesn't it make sense to be faithful to your own religion? I don't worship other gods. That would be idolatry. What I said was, I respect the wisdom of other traditions. That's not at all the same thing as saying it's okay to worship the deity of an different religion.

Regarding hell: No one condemns anyone to hell but the individual person. It's not a condemnation but a continuation. And theologians have never been able to agree on what exactly hell really is. Thomas Merton said it was (willful) separation from love. I'm not talking here about the person who's been beaten on all his life; I'm talking about the serial killer, et al, the person who is consumed with hatred and acts that hatred out in destruction of others. Some believe that hell is a temporary state; that it need be endured only until the soul is aware of its evil and repents of it. The Balthasarians (sp??) believed that Christ emptied hell after his death, breaking the power that bound sould there.

Originally posted by Georgi:
<STRONG>@Loner that makes more sense but then why does one need religion at all? </STRONG>

Because as St. Augustine said, "our hearts are restless until they rest in God." The Creator, the Great Mother, whatever you want to call the Being that is responsible for our life. The human heart cannot rest until it relates in some manner to the Spirit that created it.

(Lots of people are going to say bad bad things about Augustine, I'm sure. Well, bring it on. It defies the principles of logic to condemn everything a person says, because they said a certain amount of things we don't like. Augustine also said some brilliant and true things, and this is one of them.)

@Loner Aren't all other religions an abomination to God?

My brother also says that homosexuals are an abomination to God, i am not in agreement with him, but i was wondering how much biblical truth there is to his statements, or if he is just being vitriolic as usual.

(Quoting my bro so blame him )

[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Mr Sleep ]

[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Mr Sleep ]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>@Loner Aren't all other religions an abomination to God?

My brother also says that homosexuals are an abomination to God, i am not in agreement with him, but i was wondering how much biblical truth there is to his statements, or if he is just being vitriolic as usual.

(Quoting my bro so blame him )</STRONG>

Again, you have to remember the circumstances under which these things were written. Back in Old Testament times, many pagan religions in the region of Palestine routinely performed child sacrifice. I don't think anyone could argue that this would be an abomination to God, and it is protrayed as such in the Bible. Also, like I said to Fable: If the Israelites decided to worship the God of Israel, they should stick to that and not go after other gods of other religions. The prohibitions against other faiths were meant to keep people faithful to the God they had said they would serve. Funny how no one sees anything wrong with saying "forsaking all others" in their marriage vows. It's the same thing. I don't see anything prejudicial or intolerant in God asking people who claim to worship Him, to be faithful to Him alone and not run after other things that seem attractive. It's really being unfaithful to God that's the abomination.

Not homosexuals, but homosexual activity is the abomination. I know right now that people are not going to believe this, because no one understands how one can love a person and respect them, and still not condone the things they do. I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend, but there it is...It's not the homosexual person, but the act of homosexual sex that God disapproves.

No one will believe this either, but it's the truth: so many things in the Old Testament are CULTURAL/SOCIETAL and were written thousands of years ago. You have got to accept this if you're ever going to understand the Bible in any capacity.

If one reads Leviticus and takes everything from there as stone cold hard truth that must be obeyed, things would get slightly strange, lets jsut say there would be a lot of smiting going on....

I see your point Loner, and it is valid, the problem is that people are taught that the Bible is the truth and as with all things people wish to put their own spin on it. Interpretation can lead to all manner of problems and solutions, but it still clouds the issues.

What are your feelings on TV evangelising?