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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 3:28 pm
by Happy Evil
Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>

I would question that the US rewards success. It rewards material success: if you make a fortune, you are important, you are more worthwhile than other people--and let's face it: this is by no means either a modern or American attitude. The US simply does in the open what many other cultures, particularly European ones, have done quietly for years. French government scandals, anyone...? ;)

But there are other standards by which success may be measured, and the US pays little attention to these, as a rule. I wrote here several weeks ago that the inventor of the robotic arm has been working for several years in Japan, because he couldn't get a job that would pay as much as an average corporate office manager in the US. His "success" has led to breakthroughs in medical treatment and scientific research that are both remarkable and help many people each year, but it doesn't catch the imagination the same way extravagant wealth does. Americans are obsessed with wealth, and with the toys it can buy. This is tangible, this is the Horatio Alger story come true. It's harder to envision the austere success of a man who creates a robotic arm--or another who triumphs privately, quietly, over cancer, or a third who takes up the cello at the age of 55 to play Beethoven quartets.

These are all successes, but they're successes of the intellect, of organization, of the spirit, of enthusiasm. They lack glitter, so they never get reported; and besides, whoever recited or listened to a fairy tale about a cancer recovery patient? Our endings all feature the hero and heroine moving into a castle to live happily ever after; and making fairy tales come true is part of the American myth, IMO.</STRONG>

How many blue collar Joes and Janes in the US care about anyone playing Beethoven?
Or if the robot arm guy can make six figures?
If he would've cashed in on his invention would he not be placed in the un-noteworthy "material success" category??
Do we then deny the rags to riches stories any credible measure of success?
The average Joe's meanwhile, feel lucky to have what they have and work hard to get it. Besides.....
...WWF Smackdown is on Pay-Per View right after Jerry Springer!!
A pretty sad testimony of culture I admit.

I think people who feel reward in discovering the types of unheralded successes that you mentioned know where to seek them out.
Do we expect those types of stories to be positioned above the winners of the Superbowl in mainstream US commercial media?
Ideally maybe, unfortunantly idealism doesnt bring ratings or sell periodicles.
The masses, and things that appeal to the masses, dictate the nature of media.
Not vice versa as many would suggest.
Why not vice versa? People won't watch it or buy it.
Violence, sex, humor, and innovation sell.
Not social/political idealisms. Not here anyway.

I agree that percieved success and its relevance usually does boil down to $$$.
Sucess is a perception. Making a lot of money is desirable and percieved successful by most people I know. Unless you are living in a small mountain cabin preparing an anti-technology/society manifesto, I would think you desire wealth too to a certain extent. Do you not?

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 3:37 pm
by Happy Evil
Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>Yer sense of direction is a little off. I ain't no Southern Bell from the South. Ah'm even better cause Ah'm a Texan. Ya'll yankees seem to get that thar fact confused, but don't worry, we'll straighten yout. ;) :p :D </STRONG>
Anyone that aint from Texas is a Yankee, right? :rolleyes:

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 4:16 pm
by Sailor Saturn
Originally posted by Happy Evil:
<STRONG>Anyone that aint from Texas is a Yankee, right? :rolleyes: </STRONG>
'course not. Doncha know that there's Southerners, Texans, Californians, Yankees, and...well...I'm not sure what we call them folks up yonder in the northwestern states. Yankees are more specifically from the Northeast(New England) area. Southerners are Southeast. Texans are from Texas. Californians are from that other dimension called California. Ya just gotta get yer directions straight. ;) :D

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 6:59 pm
by C Elegans
Originally posted by Maharlika:
<STRONG>I think it all boils down to what is deemed a priority in one's society, not to mention the necessity of that particular thing.</STRONG>
If it is so, then it certainly is a question of political and cultural differences. Economics, structure of society, what is needed and what is valued in a certain society.
posted by Yshania:
<STRONG>LOL! and Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Vinnie Jones is hardly Hugh Grant or Roger Moore I think media If not the films - what about one of our biggest exports the BBC? I remember growing up thinking the BBC newsreaders were posh and London was a foreign country (maybe it is in it's cultural diversity)
</STRONG>

Certainly, I think BBC has also played a major role in propagating this image of the English "cultivation". It probably still does. I have BBC world news and BBC prime, both are international versions, and except for news and classic TV-series, they frequenctly show arts, history and science programs. They certainly don't give a representative picture of the UK as a coutry, but for all who haven't been to the country in question, I think TV affects us a lot when we form images of different concepts. The first time I was in London and Paris, I was 15. I was shocked and very distaughed by the amount of homeless I saw on the streets! Firstly, because there were no homeless in Stockholm at the time, and secondly, because you never see this in the pretty English and French films! (You do nowadays, but not then, at least not showing in Sweden.)

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:04 pm
by Vivien
C.E.: I would quote your comment, but the turny nob on my mouse has been making me skip backwards in web pages (it's a bit odd). Just wanted to say that I probably shouldn't have taken anything personally. I knew no one was intending it that way, and tried to say that... :( I truly wasn't trying to say anything negative to anyone.

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:41 pm
by C Elegans
@Vivien: I'm happy and relieved to hear you don't feel saddened anymore :) I certainly wouldn't want anyone to take this topic personally, just like I wouldn't take generalised sterotypes about Swedes personally (cold and unfriendly Swedes is a common image in Europe, and actually I holds some truth on a cultural group level but absolutely not on an individual level).

Sounds like you should get a new mouse?

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 10:17 pm
by Sailor Saturn
Originally posted by Vivien:
<STRONG>the turny nob on my mouse has been making me skip backwards in web pages (it's a bit odd).</STRONG>
I've had that problem with my wheelmouse before. Most likely, it's soemthing in your mouse settings(how it gets changed, I dunno, but it sometimes does and has to be changed back). If that doesn't work, try restarting your computer. That's what worked for me a few times. If that doesn't work either, then...I dunno what will work. Hope this helps. :)

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2001 11:02 pm
by Xandax
Originally posted by Vivien:
<STRONG>C.E.: I would quote your comment, but the turny nob on my mouse has been making me skip backwards in web pages (it's a bit odd). Just wanted to say that I probably shouldn't have taken anything personally. I knew no one was intending it that way, and tried to say that... :( I truly wasn't trying to say anything negative to anyone.</STRONG>

I'd suspect you've pressed "shift" and turnede your mousewheel - standard configuration makes this go back and forward between webpages :cool: (happens a lot to me :o )

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2001 8:13 am
by Vivien
C.E., SS, Xandax,
Well, my work computer is behaving normally. I think it's' Windows XP on my home computer, I never trust new things :) But, I'm letting it rest and am hoping it will behave normally when I next get on. Cheers :)

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2001 8:33 am
by fable
Happy Evil writes:
I think people who feel reward in discovering the types of unheralded successes that you mentioned know where to seek them out.
Do we expect those types of stories to be positioned above the winners of the Superbowl in mainstream US commercial media?
Ideally maybe, unfortunantly idealism doesnt bring ratings or sell periodicles.
My point wasn't that it should or shouldn't be done, but to note that the US doesn't reward success. it rewards material success, which is a different matter. And I would suggest that it isn't "idealism" I've referred to, but rather different systems of values that highlight the material nature of American culture.

Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2001 9:20 am
by scully1
Maybe Americans are just too highly-specialized.

Here's what I mean:

I majored in theatre in undergrad school. I've smartened up since then ;) But, because of that education, I know what a Noh play is; I can still tell you about the socio-political influences on the plays of Shakespeare; I know the history of Indian, Japanese, and Chinese theatre; I've been exposed to plays from Africa and ritual dance from Bali. Now, would Americans without a similar educational background also have such knowledge? No. Why? Because their own education was lacking? Hardly. Probably because they were too busy studying calculus or brain waves or physics or whatever it takes to become a rocket scientist -- things I can't even begin to have the first clue about, nor do I care. Just as they couldn't care less what a Noh play is.

Could it be that citizens of other nations have a more diverse scope of interest, reflected in their educational systems, while Americans are simply more focused in their chosen pursuits? Americans might just care more about their own personal interests, career-wise and leisure-wise, than about covering as broad an area of knowledge as possible. This focus could then be mistaken as lack of education, apathy, or ignorance.

Just an idea I thought I'd toss out there :)

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2001 9:59 pm
by C Elegans
Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>Could it be that citizens of other nations have a more diverse scope of interest, reflected in their educational systems, while Americans are simply more focused in their chosen pursuits? Americans might just care more about their own personal interests, career-wise and leisure-wise, than about covering as broad an area of knowledge as possible. This focus could then be mistaken as lack of education, apathy, or ignorance.</STRONG>
An interesting idea. Society is said to become more and more specialised in the Western world. Maybe US students are encouraged to specialise earlier than the students in Asia or Europe? If so, this might be relevant to the view of Americans as "ignorant".

I don't know about Asia, but in Europe, the concept of being "knowledgeble" is certainly tied to being a generalist. Highly specialised people are more often viewed as "geeks" (regardless of the subject they are specialised in). People might think it's cool that you're a nuclear physicist, but you are not viewed as "knowledgeble". Instead, generalist who know something about arts, history, natural sciences and contemporary global issues, are those who are viewed as "knowledgable" even though the collected "knowledge" a generalist has would be equal to or less than a specialist if you could measure it.