Originally posted by Aegis
I'm just gonna throw something into the mix here, as it's late, and my head is swimming after chanak's post.
For the most part, people in this thread are seeing only Black and White, but failing to see the various shades of grey inbetween. On one side of the spectrum, we have Scayde, Chanak and Lazarus. The only ones that seem to be seeing both the good and the bad of the whole idea of Communism is Myself, CE, Frogus and Fable.
I do believe the focus in this thread is the economic system featured in Communist countries...clarified by further expounding upon the philosophy behind it as being perfect in spirit, as it were. What myself, Scayde, and Lazarus have pointed out is that even in
theory, the economic principles of "distribution" which seek equality for all are in themselves flawed at best. There's
always someone at the short end of the stick, so to speak. This kind of system, while able to work for any given period of time, never produces prosperity or economic growth. To the best of my knowledge, history bears a sad, and sometimes tragic, witness to this.
In my case, I have gone further by adding
experience and
history to the fray. I have personally lived under such a system on a smaller scale, and have noted the disastrous economic failures that Communist/Socialist nations have been throughout the 20th century. Droves sought to escape from the Eastern bloc during the Cold War, and were hemmed in by mine fields, walls, and guards toting automatic weapons. You never find such measures employed in a non-Communist country.
Now, no where in this conversation have those in the middle said that Communism, in practice, works. But at the same time, the same is being said about Capitilism. Those one the side of Capitilism seem set on their views, and unwillingly to change them, instead seeing it as a vicious attack on their life style, and way of life. It is interesting to watch this go back and forth, to be quite honest. The image of Communism that Scayde, Chanak and Lazuras have is all very much the same in how the American media portrayed it during the McCarthy Withchunts (OR Sleepy's 'Pinko' scare), and defend that point of view vehemently.
Communism invariably features a State controlled, distribution oriented economy. That is one reason for the economic failure of Communism. Another feature is a poorer quality of life for it's citizens in relation to most Western countries. Need I comment further on this? I think not.
Free-market economies invariably experience prosperity and booming economic growth, and a higher standard of living for it's citizens. The proponents of distribution have clearly stated that a free market is inherently unjust and, in so many words, horrible. Naturally this is a stab at our way of life. However, I am not taking any of this personally - this is supposed to be a debate, after all.
Perhaps you did not read in one of my posts in this thread where I clearly stated that there are varying forms of Communism found throughout the world. The United States government learned this lesson the hard way during the Korean War, and the Vietnam War.
In any case, history again bears witness to something - that free market economies not only work, but produce economic growth and prosperity for those who practice it. Capitalism is one such method of free enterprise, and is a smashing success story.
Now, the four of us (CE, Fable, Frogus, and myself) are not arguing that Communism works in practice. In fact, we have argeed with you that for it to work in practice would be almost impossible. We are merely trying to dispel a myth that Communism, in theory, is the ideal Utopian society. For either system to work, though, it can't be one or the other. It must be amalgamation of both, but it seems we will never achieve that, because of this inherent view of what Communism is.
I must be confused...from what I understand, it has been held that the principles behind Communism, if adhered to "perfectly," would result in Utopia. This is what I have gleaned from the thread. What I have also gleaned from this thread is that a free-market system such as Capitalism, albeit practiced imperfectly by a Democratic/Republican country such as the United States, is unjust and wasteful, and will rape the earth of it's resources eventually.
Personally, I know what Communism is...and as I have stated before, I am dead set against it. I am against any system which oppresses and takes from it's citizens against their will. Such a system tells you where to live...where you can go...what your work shall be...and what your living consists of. All in the name of "distribution" and "equality." Invariably, a ruling elite evolves...an
Intelligencia of the educated who "know what's best."
@Chanak: Remember, I did not say Mennonites and Amish communities were Communist, I said they helped foster inspiration for Marx's Communist theories. The reason those communities are as strict as they are, is because they have a strong sense of religion as well.
Marx held that religion was the opiate of the masses. However, I did not mention their religion at all in my brief look into how they live...rather, I merely offered a glimpse of day to day life. This is a society where all "are equal"...their religion being the glue which keeps people within their way of life. The reason these societies are as strict as they are is to enforce this equality. But their religion has little to do with how they live. That is a matter of much debate, and has been for over 2,000 years.
