GameBanshee Forums

Xandax pointed out the real value of the pipelines: it's Europe's only hope to not become exclusivly dependant on Russian (controlled) oil.

Lady Dragonfly wrote:
And please note that THERE IS NO OIL IN SOUTH OSSETIA. It is a small agricultural region.

THANK YOU! Finally, someone got to the point. An overview of the war and the background today was pretty fast in pointing this out, but it took me one search in Google to figure this out. You've heard about Google, folks? Anyone? If you had checked the background on South Ossetia you would have discovered that they have absolutely nothing! No natural resources, no industry. Nothing. They don't even have their own powerplants, and have to get electricity from North Ossetia. Their GDP is about that of a Paris Hilton shopping spree, and 60% of the state income is help from Russia. The rest is various taxes levied against international transport throught the region. The infamous pipeline is far from functioning, as it's never been finished, and it was supposed to produce energy FOR Ossetia, not go through it as some of you seem to think.

Yes. Well, let's shell the bejesus out of them then. Bastards.

Again, it doesn't matter anymore how it began. It's about how this particular incident started. Everyone is getting sidetracked here.

Moonbiter wrote:<snip>The infamous pipeline is far from functioning, as it's never been finished, and it was supposed to produce energy FOR Ossetia, not go through it as some of you seem to think.

Some information about it can amongst other sources be found on wikipedia:
Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While I rarely trust Wiki for anything but an overview - it provides some good points regarding the strategic importance of the area for Europe/the "Western" world and thus the USA.

Other sources seems to support this.

The pipeline - whether you want or not - is strategical. Most hits on Google will tell you that (yes, we heard of it )

Read on a danish news media - and while the information is sketchy still, it could escalate - that Ukraine is going to prevent Russian naval forces from returning to Sevastopol while the situation is unsolved.

More fuel to the fire.

Plus reports are flowing that apparently Russia is aiding Abkhazia. It looks like Russia is hellbent on minimizing Georgia.

It doesn't particularly surprise me that there are people arguing on Russia's behalf, mostly with honourable intentions I know. Unfortunately equally honourable people tried to defend Germany after the invasion of the Sudetenland too.

I found it very amusing that the BBC's 'Have your say' forum was completely saturated with Russians trying to portray themselves as Angels and the Georgians as Devils, and warning that we were being mislead by our mass media. Not like in Russia f course were the media is free and independent and totally out of the control of the ruling party!

The way that the Russian authorities orchestrated the internet blitz was very reminiscent of the way the NRA orchestrate pre-emptive media strikes whenever a gunman goes on a killing spree. Who learned what from whom I wonder?

Just to point out, I'm not accusing anyone on this forum of being members of the KGB or participating in an orchestrated defence of Russia.

Well, to be fair - a lot of the information is sketchy and Russia and Georgia both have their sides of the story. So keeping a somewhat objective point of view is properly the best course of action while trying to filter the information.
It isn't an "pro-" or "anti-" Russia discussion this, and people are allowed to take other perspectives.

I suspect there is massive amount of mis-information floating around on various boards/newsforums etc now, and it is important to try and keep a level head.

Xandax wrote:Some information about it can amongst other sources be found on wikipedia:
Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
While I rarely trust Wiki for anything but an overview - it provides some good points regarding the strategic importance of the area for Europe/the "Western" world and thus the USA.

Other sources seems to support this.

The pipeline - whether you want or not - is strategical. Most hits on Google will tell you that (yes, we heard of it )

Actually, the BTC pipeline runs nowhere near South Ossetia, but I agree that it is a strategical object in Georgia. The Dzaurikau-Tskhinvali pipeline however, started construction in 2006, meant to pump natural gas into South Ossetia, who badly needs the energy. It is still not functional, mainly due to interference from Georgia, who are doing their damned best to sabotage the construction.

I definetly work for the KGB. Waddaya mean they were disbanded in -95? Damn! I should check my messages more often!

Galraen, please help me decide whether I should thank you for calling my (and Moonbiter's) point of view "mostly honourable" or take offense?

Who started the war?

There is a very interesting response to this question, containing lots and lots of information about the events preceeding this conflict (a warning to those suffering from the ADD: it is long):

Who really started this russia-georgia conflict? - Yahoo! Answers

A short snippet:

The 2008 Georgia-Russia crisis began on March 6, 2008 when Russia announced that it would no longer participate in the CIS economic sanctions imposed on Abkhazia in 1996.[1] The crisis has been linked to the push for Georgia to receive a NATO Membership Action Plan and the unilateral declaration of independence by Kosovo.[2] Tensions in the crisis have been primarily centered around the breakaway state of Abkhazia and increased following the shootdown of a Georgian UAV drone airplane and subsequent buildup of military forces by Russia.

Lifting of CIS sanctions
Responding to Kosovo's recent declaration of independence, Russian officials declared Moscow should “reshape its relations with self-proclaimed republics”.[3] Russia responded to these calls for increased ties by lifting CIS sanctions, declaring them "outdated, impeding the socio-economic development of the region, and causing unjustified hardship for the people of Abkhazia".[1] Russia also called on other CIS members to undertake similar steps, but met with protests from Tbilisi and lack of support from the other CIS countries.[4] Shalva Natelashvili, leader of the Labor Party of Georgia, warned Abkhazia would be "finally separated from Georgia" and cited the lifting of sanctions as the first sign.[5] Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt, raised similar concerns about the dropping of trade restrictions saying, "That could look like a de facto annexation and that would be a matter of great concern if it were the case."[6]


Russian increase of ties with breakaway republics in Georgia
Abkhazia and South Ossetia both submitted formal requests for recognition of their independence to Russia, among other countries, and international organizations as a response to the recognition of Kosovo.[7][8] Russia's Duma called a session for March 13 to discuss the issue of recognition in respect to the unrecognized republics in the Former Soviet Union.[9] Slovenian Foreign Minister Dimitrij Rupel said the European Union was concerned by what it considered moves by Russia to recognize Abkhazia. External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said, there was "a growing preoccupation and anxiety that Russia may be paving the way for recognition of Abkhazia," and stated the EU's support for Georgia's territorial integrity........

Moonbiter wrote:Actually, the BTC pipeline runs nowhere near South Ossetia, but I agree that it is a strategical object in Georgia. The [url="http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1072533.html"]Dzaurikau-Tskhinvali[/url] pipeline however, started construction in 2006, meant to pump natural gas into South Ossetia, who badly needs the energy. It is still not functional, mainly due to interference from Georgia, who are doing their damned best to sabotage the construction.

I definetly work for the KGB. Waddaya mean they were disbanded in -95? Damn! I should check my messages more often!

34 miles from South Ossetia is hardly "nowhere near".

True, I looked it up to be sure. Though I hardly think the russian attack for the pipeline, since it is has a great deal of shareholders, such as Great Britain, USA and France. And yes 34 miles isn't far as seen in numbers, but when looking at the position of the pipeline you can say it is unlikely the russian will go that far. I really don't think the russian can't afford to go there, since the international pressure will gain its boiling point if they do.

Xandax wrote:34 miles from South Ossetia is hardly "nowhere near".

The whole South Ossetia is roughly 30x50 miles. If you mean Russia wants to get one step closer to the pipeline then yeah...

But why bother? It has already been blown up by the curds.

Xandax wrote:Well, to be fair - a lot of the information is sketchy and Russia and Georgia both have their sides of the story.

Sigh, and no one here except for me has tried get to *a* relevant point. Pipelines. Fine, whatever. [url="http://www.exclusivetelemarketedleads.com/arctic_pipeline_T3559.jpg"]Here's a picture of one[/url].

Tricky wrote:Sigh, and no one here except for me has tried get to *a* relevant point. Pipelines. Fine, whatever. [url="http://www.exclusivetelemarketedleads.com/arctic_pipeline_T3559.jpg"]Here's a picture of one[/url].

A relevant point is Georgia became our oh-so-valued ally because it has 2000 troops in Iraq. The US trains Georgian soldiers. In Georgia. The US also provides M-16 and other weaponry to Georgia. Reminds me of Afganistan.

Do you think Russia should love all that?

The Georgian El Stupido felt emboldened by Dubya's backing when he ordered the bombing of SO hospitals and schools and killed 2000 civilians 3 hours after he declared cease-fire. What was he thinking would happen next? Well, stupid idiots don't think, that's the problem. He was beaten up and thrown out. Now he is begging for truce and Russia tells him to go to Hell. You reap what you sow. No sympathy from me.

EDIT: just to add this-

(Reuters) Russian television showed what it said were pictures from Tskhinvali of burnt-out buildings, wounded civilians receiving medical treatment in basements and weeping mothers complaining of a lack of food and water.

"The Georgian tanks fired at everything they saw, including women and children," one man said after his evacuation over the border to the Russian region of North Ossetia.

Pictures on NTV television showed Tskhinvali's main hospital in ruins and most of its 200 patients crammed into the basement. Patients, many of them wincing, were receiving treatment on tabletops.

A few bare light bulbs provided scant illumination and the report said the hospital had no ready supply of water. Some patients sat listlessly on beds crammed into a tiny, dim area with unfinished walls.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin cut short his visit to the Olympics on Saturday and flew to a field hospital in North Ossetia, visiting wounded troops and evacuees, and denouncing what he termed Georgia's "crimes against its own people."

Doubtless the troubles with Chechnya were all Chechnya's fault, and of course Oleg Gordievsky poisoned himself!

When the Russian foreign minister says Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili "must go", and Russia's embassador to the refuses to deny that regime change is it's objective and refers to Georgia's leaders as 'obstacles' I think Russia's motives are pretty obvious. Especially when it starts arming terrorists elsewhere in Georgia and starts to make moves to support them.

Tricky wrote:Sigh, and no one here except for me has tried get to *a* relevant point. Pipelines. Fine, whatever. [url="http://www.exclusivetelemarketedleads.com/arctic_pipeline_T3559.jpg"]Here's a picture of one[/url].

That's a bit of a stretch, that statement.
Others have "tried" to get a relevant point across - it just seems you disagree with it and think it isn't relevant.

On other notes, it looks as Georgia is willing to make a peace treaty, yet Russia continues to bomb/fight near Tbilisi, looking more like an invading force instead of a "peacekeeping" one. Russia is looking more and more like wanting to "punish" Georgia.

galraen wrote:Doubtless the troubles with Chechnya were all Chechnya's fault, and of course Oleg Gordievsky poisoned himself!

What does it have to do with South Ossetia?
And, by the way, Chechnya is a bandit state where Al-Qaeda feels right at home.

When the Russian foreign minister says Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili "must go", and Russia's embassador to the refuses to deny that regime change is it's objective and refers to Georgia's leaders as 'obstacles' I think Russia's motives are pretty obvious. Especially when it starts arming terrorists elsewhere in Georgia and starts to make moves to support them.

You know, Georgia was a part of Russian Empire and later the USSR for over 200 years. Georgian separatists and nationalists took the opportunity to break away in 80s. Sacred independence and such. Something Georgia is entitled to and South Ossetia is apparently not, from Georgian point of view. The ultimate irony.

They are all corrupted, Galraen. Georgia is corrupted to the last degree.
Just a few facts you might find interesting:

"Conflicts in early 1990s, the subsequent loss of the government control over Abkhazia and South Ossetia and corruption permeating state structures all contributed to Georgia’s becoming a transit territory for Afghan heroin and
morphine. It is estimated that only 5% of all opiates trafficked through Georgia is intercepted.
Corruption: Corruption in Georgia is endemic. During the Shevardnadze regime, it is believed that border guards, policemen, minister of interior were implicated in drug smuggling and refining.
Money laundering: 80% of the Georgian economy is cash-based and according to an OECD survey, up to 80% of the Georgian economy is in the shadow economy.
Human trafficking is a major problem in Georgia. Georgians, both men and women destined for illegal work, prostitution and forced labour enter Western Europe through three routes. One through Turkey, Bulgaria, Macedonia to Greece. One through Latvia, Poland to Germany or through the Czech Republic to Germany. To the US, Georgians mostly travel through Russia and Mexico onwards to the US."

Now Dubya who is having fun in China right now, took the moral high ground and said that "violence is unacceptable". I laughed my tail off.

Yeah but I thought that it wasnt a province of Georgia! I thought it was semi independantand that Georgia wanted to take back as a province of Georgia. Is it me or does this kind of sound like the falklands all over again? One country says it's theres the other says its theres and the one whos invading, the people there dont seem to want to join!

Lady Dragonfly wrote: Now Dubya who is having fun in China right now, took the moral high ground and said that "violence is unacceptable". I laughed my tail off.

Yeah, I especially enjoyed the "Georgia is a sovereign nation, and it's borders must be respected" -part. His poo-faced expression was priceless. I think even he understands that nobody's gonna take that seriously coming from him, or any other US politician for for the next 250 years or so. :laugh:

That is a very good point Moonbiter, unfortunately I don't think there's a country in the world who can critisize Russia without being hypocritical, especially imperialist countries like the US and UK.

That's also true of the nuclear debate of course, it doesn't seem to occur to anyone in the US that they come across as grossly hypocritical when they complain about Iran developing Nukes. Hey, who has the biggest stockpile of Nukes and is the only country to actually have used them? Pure Homerisms everytime Dubya or any US politician opens his/her mouth on that issue!

That doesn't mean that the rest of us shouldn't express concern and/or protest when the scumbag politicians of any country behave badly. If we keep protesting maybe someone will listen, yeah, I know pipedream.

I must confess to finding Lady Dragonfly's 'Russia's always right everyone else is wrong' attitude rather puzzling. Russia's actions are wrong even according to their own position is other similar circumstances. They protest about other countries interfering in a third countries internal affairs, but it's fine if they do it is it? Block the UN from intervening when it suits them, but then do exctly the same thing themselves, heck Putin is just as bad and hypocritical and dangerous as Dubya, but we mustn't critisize him?