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I'm not sure what the debate's about. Salt Lake City and the Olympic Commitee have already shown that all you need is a copy of the Official Olympic Price List and a BIG wad of cash.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>The Games have become so much of a commercial business (beach volleyball? come on!) that I've pretty much lost interest in 'em.</STRONG>

I agree with you. The olympics have got a bit boring. I only watch the track and swimming events. Nothing else.

How come for olympic football(soccer) the players have to be amaetures but in baseball and basketball the players can be proffesional? Is that some way to make sure the U.S will win both baseball and basketball. Come on, Japan is good at baseball but is nothing compared to the U.S. Its not really fair. Beach volleyball is not a sport. The only countries that really plays beach volleyball are Australia and U.S. Same point as above with baseball. Synchronized swimming is not a sport. Again only a few countries do this. the U.S has setup the olympics so that they can definetly win the olympics.

I have no problem with the olympics being in China. The olympics are an international event and relationships with China are bad enough as it is, don't want them to be more angry.

Actually the real reason I don't mind having them in China is because China and the far east generally have better opening and closing ceremonies Atlanta's and Australia's were pretty bad. The last good opening and closing ceremony was probably in Barcelona.

Is 2004 going to be in Athens?
really '96 should have been in Athens. 100 year celebration.

Like Xandax said I would also prefer them to be in a place where I can actualy watch them live.

2000 olympics did pretty bad in the ratings area. IOC has to do something to make them more exicting again.

What?! Beijing got the nod? Are you sure about that fabe? Aw man, that just downright SUCKS!

Very well, today begins a personal letter writing campaign to Congress demanding that the US botcott the whole darn thing in 2008. What a travesty!

I think it's a travesty to hold the games in China, and it sickens me the way that international powers continue to remain blithely unconcerned about Tibet, Burma and China itself. Canada's PM was self-rightiously spouting off about China's human rights record when in a couple of months he'll be going off on a trade mission to China (no doubt, knee pads in tow).
Seems to me that something quite similar happened in 1936.........

Er....Eminem I'm not altogether certain that the U.S needs to get on a pedestal either.......

[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: dragon wench ]

I think boycotting the Olympics is a terrible idea. We want the people of China to experience the games and the spirit that goes with them.

From the Olympic Charter: The goal of Olympism is to place everywhere sport at the service of the harmonious development of man, with a view to encouraging the establishment of a peaceful society concerned with the preservation of human dignity.

We do wish to "encourage" them, do we not?

One could argue that denying them the Games is, itself, a human rights violation because the Charter also claims that, "The practice of sport is a human right." I am, however, not the "One" to argue that. . .

Part of the reason they won the bid (besides the money and the facilities) was their appeal to the IOC that this will help them and inspire them to improve their HR record. After you're done laughing at that appeal, you've got to admit that it's worth a shot - we've got nothing to lose. We can only hope that increased good will and exposure to "western" HR standards and culture will help the Chinese transform their society for the better.

Outsider, I'm not taking your comments personally, but I think your POV is very myopic. The Chou (or Zhou) Dynasty saw the introduction of increasingly efficient irrigation (e.g., land reclamation & organic fertilizers), interstate commerce, coin minting, bronze and iron casting - all of which led directly to the slow dissolution of feudalism and the rise to the merchant middle class which greatly increased the quality of life across the board.

The Han Dynasty witnessed the invention and widespread use of paper money, efficient trade and Confucianism (providing the Chinese with jobs based on their skills and merit not their lineage).

All this plus the countless societal breakthroughs (circulation, mathematics, iron-working, astronomy, pharmacology, printing, etc.) add up to one pretty damn civilized culture.

Regarding China:Tibet -- that situation's really not that different from US:Mexico in the 1840's. After all, we did assault the nation of Mexico laying claim and occupying the entire northern half (CA, NV, AZ, NM & UT). We didn't even pretend to have historical claims on the land, we just blamed that dread "Manifest Destiny" fever.

We'll not see eye-to-eye on this, I suppose. I'm happy for the Chinese though, they get a chance to shine in the sun.

We do wish to "encourage" them, do we not?

The record for human rights in China over the last couple of thousand years has indicated anything but an openness to outside values. History demonstrates that kowtowing to Chinese governments never changes the way they view their own interests. Encouragement will get us nowhere. Hitting 'em in the moneybelt just might make things better, but it will take a sizeable hit to make a difference. And considering the way they responded when the Danes took them to task a couple of years back for their human rights record in the UN (the Chinese effectively boycotted the Danes), it's unlikely money-hungry nations will do anything but smile and say, "Please consider doing something about those mental institutions, the imprisionment of our citizens in your land, the way Tibetans have been slaughtered and the land repopulated," etc.

I forsee propaganda like when Berlin hosted in 1936.

I think that China will make an effort to show the world that they are becomming a better nation HR-wise. (not saying that they actually will be better.

For instance I read today on cnn.dk that the the chinise goverment will proberly allow the press free speech duing the games??
"proberly"?? "During"??
Nothing stating about before and after - and where else in the world where such an event have/could have been placed is it nessacery to come with such a statement.

The way I see it - all unwanted elements will be removed from Bejin before the games, and then they will promote a wonderfull model communistic city, just like in 1936 in Berlin.

[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Xandax ]

Originally posted by El Cid:
<STRONG> I'm happy for the Chinese though, they get a chance to shine in the sun.</STRONG>

I have to say I'm happy for the Chinese people, but let's just see how shining the Chinese Government does before we judge.

News clippings

CNN. Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian has also supported Beijing's bid and has suggested that China and Taiwan could share some of the events.

CNN. In the fallout of the IOC decision, one thing is certain -- the losing cities will blame politics for the decision to hand China the 2008 Games.

CNN. Beijing won on the second round of a secret IOC ballot, receiving 56 votes.It defeated Toronto (22), Paris (18) and Istanbul (nine). Osaka was eliminated in the first round of voting, with six votes

Now Taiwan supports them, and if any country has a reason not to like China, they do. They are giving them (The Chinese Gov.) a chance, shouldn't we? Yes they have the worst human rights issues, but do you all want to shut China off?

Now Taiwan supports them, and if any country has a reason not to like China, they do. They are giving them (The Chinese Gov.) a chance, shouldn't we? Yes they have the worst human rights issues, but do you all want to shut China off?

Yeah, but @Weasel, you're forgetting that this is the same China that has publically and privately called Taiwan a "rogue state" and threatened repeatedly to invade. Taiwan isn't doing this to give the Chinese government "a chance." Their reasons are pragmatic: if we make nice to this enormous 500-pound ape, maybe it won't sit on us when it goes to the dinner table.

Originally posted by fable:

Their reasons are pragmatic: if we make nice to this enormous 500-pound ape, maybe it won't sit on us when it goes to the dinner table.[/QB]

My sentiments exactly

hoorray for china!

maybe it will keep their fingers of the "botton" for a little while. since they are the main country i worry about.(for global detrimation(sp).

i know the flames will come, but give them what they want.

The way I see it - all unwanted elements will be removed from Bejin before the games, and then they will promote a wonderfull model communistic city, just like in 1936 in Berlin.

I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>

Yeah, but @Weasel, you're forgetting that this is the same China that has publically and privately called Taiwan a "rogue state" and threatened repeatedly to invade. Taiwan isn't doing this to give the Chinese government "a chance." Their reasons are pragmatic: if we make nice to this enormous 500-pound ape, maybe it won't sit on us when it goes to the dinner table.</STRONG>

It's most likely true, but I will not condemn the chinese people for the stuff their government does. Should I condemn every German for what Hitler did?
---------------------------------------------
More CNN.

Human Rights Watch says rights in China are "far below international standards, with arbitrary detention, torture, and violations of freedom of expression, association, assembly, and religion still widespread".

The group points out, however, that international attention may be the impetus for change as "having thousands of people from around the world in China can focus attention, including on the degree of state control and fear of political protest".

------------------------------------------

Maybe this will work. Shouldn't we see if it will?


I'm an American and believe the Chinese government to be the worst. But I am willing to give them a chance.

Keep in mind that NO country is free from human rights violations. Even the US with our rampant incarceration rate (#1 in the world, baby!), prison-rape epidemic, harsh immigration policy (send me your poor. . .), personal and property rights infringement and abusive and unconstitutional Federal government.

Let he without sin throw the first stone.

Originally posted by El Cid:
<STRONG>Keep in mind that NO country is free from human rights violations. Even the US with our rampant incarceration rate (#1 in the world, baby!), prison-rape epidemic, harsh immigration policy (send me your poor. . .), personal and property rights infringement and abusive and unconstitutional Federal government.

Let he without sin throw the first stone.</STRONG>

You are right - no country is free of HR-violations but but but....
there is a big difference in what you mention, and then running over people with tanks.
For instance even in USA you have the right to protest without getting shot, the media can publish just about anything they like, you can vote on different presidents dependt on you view of politics etc.

Originally posted by Xandax:
<STRONG>The way I see it - all unwanted elements will be removed from Bejin before the games, and then they will promote a wonderfull model communistic city, just like in 1936 in Berlin.
</STRONG>

What happen in 1936? Hitler thought to show the world up and suffered his dues.

For two weeks in August 1936, Adolf Hitler's Nazi dictatorship camouflaged its racist, militaristic character while hosting the Summer Olympics. Softpedaling its antisemitic agenda and plans for territorial expansion, the regime exploited the Games to bedazzle many foreign spectators and journalists with an image of a peaceful, tolerant Germany. Having rejected a proposed boycott of the 1936 Olympics, the United States and other western democracies missed the opportunity to take a stand that--some observers at the time claimed--might have given Hitler pause and bolstered international resistance to Nazi tyranny. With the conclusion of the Games, Germany's expansionist policies and the persecution of Jews and other "enemies of the state" accelerated, culminating in World War II and the Holocaust.


Eighteen Black athletes represented the United States in the 1936 Olympics. African Americans dominated the popular track and field events. Many American journalists hailed the victories of Jesse Owens and other Blacks as a blow to the Nazi myth of Aryan supremacy. Goebbels's press censorship prevented German reporters from expressing their prejudices freely, but one leading Nazi newspaper demeaned the Black athletes by referring to them as "auxiliaries."

Well let us see...

It is a good thing the Chinese are not campaigning to host the World Cup - I wonder how they would deal with the fervent, and most times over-zealous soccer fans. Sensitively I guess...tanks with slippers on?

Originally posted by Weasel:
<STRONG>What happen in 1936? Hitler thought to show the world up and suffered his dues.
</STRONG>

"By December of 1933, all sports organizations for adherents of the Jewish faith were officially disbanded in Germany"
-Removal of unwanted elements-

"On 01 January 1936, a number of anti-Jewish laws were temporarily lifted to placate the IOC and foreign participants"
+
"Hitler ordered all anti-Jewish signs to be removed"
-Showing the world that they weren't that bad-


There are many more things that show that Hitler and the german goverment putted on a propaganda show to show the world how good they were - and well, the rest is history.

What I meant with my statement is that China can/will(IMO) put on a show to try to decive the world about all their "improvments" and when the olympic is over - it is back to normal. Just like in 1936

[ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Xandax ]