SOZ party construction.. (Tips with minor spoilers):

[Scottg]

Nice stuff, Scottg.

I take it the alignment and god choices are pretty much for flavor (except for the Blackguard career move)?

Could you provide another couple of 3rd and 4th place options, perhaps to vary out the similarities within your current set? Also: which of the already present 11 party NPCs would you keep in your party?

Graci!

Alignment and God choices bounded on class specifics and the Monk gloves & robes in-game (Fists of Bane and a +6 AC robe).

For the Monk those items required an evil alignment.

The Blackguard fits in with this and gives an aura and the Charisma modifier for the meat-shield character.

Then the God choices for the Ranger class "set" the rest, and if all have the same God then Recitation works better.

..so that's how it ended up the way it did.

As far as ease of play is concerned - you could swap the Warlocks with hardcore Archers (Fighter-based with Strength and the AA Class). By about 50% into the game you can enchant both bows AND arrows - making the Archer a power-house class-type again. I'll see what I can do here.

IF you didn't mind the game being a bit more difficult (at lower levels), you could always go for Wizards or Sorcerers. Here I would suggest GENERALIST Wizards simply because the "boss" has several immunities to specific spells - AND as a Sorcerer you my not be selecting the spells that work. Of course a well-crafted Sorcerer could simply *hose* the "boss".

[fable]

Alignment and God choices bounded on class specifics and the Monk gloves & robes in-game (Fists of Bane and a +6 AC robe).

For the Monk those items required an evil alignment.

The Blackguard fits in with this and gives an aura and the Charisma modifier for the meat-shield character.

Then the God choices for the Ranger class "set" the rest, and if all have the same God then Recitation works better.

..so that's how it ended up the way it did.

Clever, and practical. How would those characters work if you wanted to play characters with good or neutral alignment--or simply wouldn't they? Barring editing the items.

As far as ease of play is concerned - you could swap the Warlocks with hardcore Archers (Fighter-based with Strength and the AA Class). By about 50% into the game you can enchant both bows AND arrows - making the Archer a power-house class-type again. I'll see what I can do here.

Thanks. It would be interesting to try a mix and match.

If you didn't mind the game being a bit more difficult (at lower levels), you could always go for Wizards or Sorcerers. Here I would suggest GENERALIST Wizards simply because the "boss" has several immunities to specific spells - AND as a Sorcerer you my not be selecting the spells that work. Of course a well-crafted Sorcerer could simply *hose* the "boss".

As mentioned above, too: which of the already present 11 party NPCs in SoZ would you keep in your party for the duration, or most of it?

[Scottg]

How would those characters work if you wanted to play characters with good or neutral alignment--or simply wouldn't they? Barring editing the items.

As mentioned above, too: which of the already present 11 party NPCs in SoZ would you keep in your party for the duration, or most of it?

Here is an Archer build:

Archer (Hardcore build for SOZ) | NWN2 Character Builder

Note however that they don't have:
Bluff
Intimidate
Lore (to any significance)
Spellcraft (to any significance)
or either Magical Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item.

You would need to use in-game characters for the Magical Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item. Fortunately with just gold you can always level-up these characters quickly (..at cross-road keep).

Personally I'd pick-up all the in-game characters and then "dump them" immediately after. (i.e. I wouldn't use ANY of the characters beyond their use for crafting.)

They really aren't much more than an experience point drain on a well crafted party.

The Blackguard can always be altered to a Paladin structure. There would be a few modifications, but it should still result in a very similar character (..with the exception of alignment). Personally I found that my meat-shield was the *least* effective character in the final battle, but of course he is excellent for virtually all of the rest of the campaign.

[swcarter]

FWIW, I used a very vanilla group when I played through SOZ: a fighter, a rogue/ranger, a cleric, and a wizard, with Quarrel (a warlock) as my companion. The combat is pretty easy, so you don't need to get too complicated with party construction. I focused more on increasing skills than in increasing damage potential.

SWC

[fable]

Scottg, why the lore for both your leader build and both your warlocks? After all, only one party member needs it. Isn't that a case of overkill, or what am I missing?

And would I be right in assuming that your Leader build becomes a Blackguard who can't cast the spells he/she gains? That isn't a criticism. You state very good reasons for going this route. I'm just seeking clarification. Creating a "good" equivalent wouldn't be quite possible, since there are clear differences between the Blackguard and the Divine Champion.

Thanks!

[Scottg]

Scottg, why the lore for both your leader build and both your warlocks? After all, only one party member needs it. Isn't that a case of overkill, or what am I missing?

And would I be right in assuming that your Leader build becomes a Blackguard who can't cast the spells he/she gains? That isn't a criticism. You state very good reasons for going this route. I'm just seeking clarification. Creating a "good" equivalent wouldn't be quite possible, since there are clear differences between the Blackguard and the Divine Champion.

Thanks!

Lore is a requirement for the Hellfire Warlock class. The "Guide" with Sacred Fist levels also requires Lore.

I find the Blackguard spells to be useless. The summon is pretty much that way as well.

A good character could be crafted that is "similar". The real difference would be the lack of significant Sneak Attack damage - which really doesn't do a lot for this build anyway. By FAR the most important point for this character is to act as your distraction meat-shield.

BTW, SWCarter is correct - you don't have to have a seriously complex party for this game. In fact you don't even have to get complex with skills, but if you want to get a bit more out of the game then skills are important.

Here is an alternative I made:

Meat-Shield (level 20 SOZ) | NWN2 Character Builder

It isn't anywhere near as good with the skills, BUT it is a better meat-shield AND it can use Clerical wands.

BTW, another option is a Chaotic Good Fighter/Sorcerer/RDD/Warlock (..with one level of Sorcerer for the RDD class and one level of Warlock for the Dark One's Own Luck). It provides slightly better saves, better damage, similar attack numbers, and one *less* attack per round at higher levels. It also has better skills and immunity to fire and paralysis near the end. It doesn't have the DD's damage reduction OR either the +4 AC from Defensive Stance or the potential +6 from Divine Shield. It does however have access to Mage Armor and Shield early in the build (..which are nearly useless once you get crafting). It also trades Clerical Wand casting for Arcane Wand casting, but *could* incorporate Clerical wand casting via skill: Use Magic Device. (..I'd opt for the DD build between the 2.)

[fable]

BTW, another option is a Chaotic Good Fighter/Sorcerer/RDD/Warlock (..with one level of Sorcerer for the RDD class and one level of Warlock for the See the Unseen). It provides slightly better saves, better damage, similar attack numbers, and one *less* attack per round at higher levels. It also has better skills and immunity to fire and paralysis near the end. It doesn't have the DD's damage reduction OR either the +4 AC from Defensive Stance or the potential +6 from Divine Shield. It does however have access to Mage Armor and Shield early in the build (..which are nearly useless once you get crafting). It also trades Clerical Wand casting for Arcane Wand casting, but *could* incorporate Clerical wand casting via skill: Use Magic Device. (..I'd opt for the DD build between the 2.)

A 4 profession build? You do like crunching the numbers for the perfect build, don't you? I might give your dwarven meat shield a chance, though. It looks pretty good, though as you note, the damage is less important than being able to soak up all the attacks while the rest of the party joins in.

I've noticed nobody with Use Magic Device in your party. Not something you prefer?

Apropos your "good" dwarven meat shield: I can't get the starting numbers you do of 14, 15, 14, 12, 10, 14 before adjustments--I end up 3 short. Any idea what gives?

[Scottg]

A 4 profession build? You do like crunching the numbers for the perfect build, don't you? I might give your dwarven meat shield a chance, though. It looks pretty good, though as you note, the damage is less important than being able to soak up all the attacks while the rest of the party joins in.

I've noticed nobody with Use Magic Device in your party. Not something you prefer?

Apropos your "good" dwarven meat shield: I can't get the starting numbers you do of 14, 15, 14, 12, 10, 14 before adjustments--I end up 3 short. Any idea what gives?

I'm not much for "vanilla" characters. Also, for this resource I'm trying to craft characters that are *easy* to play, or rather are *easy* to play as a group. For a person well-versed in different characters and their interaction, the standard Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue is pretty easy ..BUT that may not be the case for everyone. Wizards alone are the most difficult character to play.. THEN add-in their interaction with other characters, and specifically how their spells might hurt you as much as help you and how they need to be "Buffed" to survive. Finally "top" it off with a "helping" of resting limitations, and many less experienced players could find this more than a little difficult. Further, vanilla characters might not capture the attention of people looking for something "more" (..without perhaps realizing that "vanilla" isn't so "vanilla").


In SOZ UMD needs to be cranked up quite a bit to be useful. Further, what will you use it for? Equipment? You can craft better. Spells? What is your character doing that they should need spells to cast instead of what they are best at? I can see it as a "fall-back" for a less than stellar offensive character (..for both defensive and offensive capability, but I'm not sure I'd build such a character.) IMO it's best use is in conjunction with Craft Wand for Crafting Wands of a different spell-casting class - for variety, and mostly for buff spells.

DD: 14/13/16/12/10/14 (starting attributes)

[fable]

I'm not much for "vanilla" characters. Also, for this resource I'm trying to craft characters that are *easy* to play, or rather are *easy* to play as a group. For a person well-versed in different characters and their interaction, the standard Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue is pretty easy ..BUT that may not be the case for everyone. Wizards alone are the most difficult character to play.. THEN add-in their interaction with other characters, and specifically how their spells might hurt you as much as help you and how they need to be "Buffed" to survive. Finally "top" it off with a "helping" of resting limitations, and many less experienced players could find this more than a little difficult. Further, vanilla characters might not capture the attention of people looking for something "more" (..without perhaps realizing that "vanilla" isn't so "vanilla").


In SOZ UMD needs to be cranked up quite a bit to be useful. Further, what will you use it for? Equipment? You can craft better. Spells? What is your character doing that they should need spells to cast instead of what they are best at? I can see it as a "fall-back" for a less than stellar offensive character (..for both defensive and offensive capability, but I'm not sure I'd build such a character.) IMO it's best use is in conjunction with Craft Wand for Crafting Wands of a different spell-casting class - for variety, and mostly for buff spells.

DD: 14/13/16/12/10/14 (starting attributes)

Makes sense. I'm still used to games like BG2, where you can't craft. Btw, why the need (again) for lore? The DD doesn't require it, and with fewer skill points, I would think Intimidate and the Craft skills were important. They could take up all your skill points in this build.

[Scottg]

Makes sense. I'm still used to games like BG2, where you can't craft. Btw, why the need (again) for lore? The DD doesn't require it, and with fewer skill points, I would think Intimidate and the Craft skills were important. They could take up all your skill points in this build.

No need for Lore. ANY character can have that skill, and in fact you could always do without it altogether. You'd miss some map and overland map "junk", and perhaps one or two things of interest - but nothing critical.

[fable]

No need for Lore. ANY character can have that skill, and in fact you could always do without it altogether. You'd miss some map and overland map "junk", and perhaps one or two things of interest - but nothing critical.

Didn't think there was--it's just that your build includes it. But I'll do without it. Thanks!

[Scottg]

Didn't think there was--it's just that your build includes it. But I'll do without it. Thanks!

..which character?

[fable]

..which character?

I could have been wrong. The DD lists "Skill Affinity (Lore)," and I took that to mean lore should be increased. I see now that you simply meant it had a SA for lore, but since you didn't list the other SAs, assumed it was special somehow.

[fable]

By the way, how many levels of lore are necessary for your Guide to become an SP?

[Scottg]

I could have been wrong. The DD lists "Skill Affinity (Lore)," and I took that to mean lore should be increased. I see now that you simply meant it had a SA for lore, but since you didn't list the other SAs, assumed it was special somehow.

That's just a racial bonus for the Dwarf.

[Scottg]

By the way, how many levels of lore are necessary for your Guide to become an SP?

..an SF? 8.

[Scottg]

I'm currently thinking of a more advanced part for SOZ.. :mischief:

[fable]

..an SF? 8.

Bah, yeah.

I'm currently thinking of a more advanced part for SOZ..

Heh! Go for it. There really aren't enough good 20th level party builds around for SoZ. Plenty 30th level, but I wonder how many people that create these truly solo them?

I decided to use your DD, along wih the Rogue "Guide," the warlock, and a cleric/DC.

[Scottg]

You can hear the crickets in this forum with Dragon Age just released..

Anyway, I'll not release the full alternative build I had for this game, but I'll add it here generally:

"Overkill and Company":

1st character Lead: Strongheart Halflling - Rogue 1/ Druid 19 (OM and utility character.)
2nd character Shine: Strongheart Halflling - Sorcerer 6/ Palemaster 1/ ASoCK 10/ Sorcerer 3 (..bluff character.)
3rd character Lore: Human -Cleric 7/ Fighter 1/ Cleric 12 Domains: Animal & Time (..Lore character.)
4th character Face: Human - Cleric 7/ Fighter 1/ Cleric 12 Domains: Animal & Time (..Diplomacy character.)

All 4 characters use ranged weapons, crossbows for characters 2-4 for the first 7 levels, at 8th level Longbows for 3 & 4. Shortbow for character 1. Improved Rapid Shot for Character 1 by 12th level. Improved Rapid Shot for characters 3 & 4 by 9th level.

Dino Pet's for characters 1, 3 & 4. Yeah, *3* dino pets. :mischief:

Frankly the build was to easy.. even at the hardest setting I could take-down the endboss within 2-3 rounds using concentrated ranged attacks.

The use of the pets provided excellent meat-shields, that rarely were hit.

The 1st character had a relatively high survival & hide skills AND had Woodland stride - so overland map movement was easy. (..this was also my Intimidate, Search, and Disable Devices/Open Lock character.) Resting on the overland map wasn't a problem for this character either - with only the occasional "Imminent" threat level.

Even the crossbows at level 5 were reasonably sufficient without rapid reload due to access of Haste from both the 3rd and 4th characters.

Surprisingly the Crossbow attacks from character 2 were also quite effective, and this was without the "Rapid Reload" feat for this character (..instead choosing appropriate magical feats.)

Overall - magical attacks were relatively infrequent, but when actually used the party had *awesome* power to "draw upon". Even "buffing" was relatively rare.