GameBanshee Forums

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
<STRONG>I think I'm just going to stop posting in these serious threads. The only reason i even post is too defend my culture against racist people like at99.
Anyway the way i getted pissed at the racist i'll probably get banned...

(again)</STRONG>

Is your culture so perfect that noboby can have an opinion. I am not making this up when I say there is a lot of Negative Press against mid-eastern cultures.

Dont call me a racist. If you are not mature enough to handle discussions 'which by the way is happening Everywhere' on mid-eastern culture then dont bother.

I think you have a problem with free speech and are confusing it with racism (check the meaning!)

I am speaking about todays world in my replies . Ottoman empire never ruled christians everywhere (check your history, your wrong!!)

@Everybody: I do not want this thread to deteriorate into culture racism against any culture. I'm interested in everybody's opinions, but please no personal attacks.

At99, you have previously posted racist comments in other threads. Freedom of speach does not necessarily mean freedom to offend other people's culture or ethic origin. Most countries with freedom of speach also have laws against racism and other forms of discrimination. Freedom from discrimination because of ethnic origin, culture, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc is in the human rights.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
[QB

At99, you have previously posted racist comments in other threads. Freedom of speach does not necessarily mean freedom to offend other people's culture or ethic origin. Most countries with freedom of speach also have laws against racism and other forms of discrimination. Freedom from discrimination because of ethnic origin, culture, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc is in the human rights.[/QB]

Please look at the meaning of 'racist'. This is a harsh claim and I am not against a race.
This thorin guy was making a silly claim and needed to be put back in his place. Where in this thread have I been racist.

Maggie Thatcher claimed it was wrong to let in so many Moslems, Italian Prime Minister claimed Islamic culture are inferorior to the west. I am not saying any of this.

There is a proble with your freedom of speech meaning. Being offended by comments does not automatically mean the other person is racist or wrong. It is largely in the eye of the beholder.

By saying I hate all so-so and want them dead is racist. It is not a black and white issue a lot of the time.

In This thread and others I have been careful not to get people offside without meaning. I think the constant Racist claims are politcally correctness gone wrong.

I would just like to say that I am a Jew living in Jerusalem(of american family). I have participated in many chats and forums on line and NEVER has that come up as a topic of conversation, good or bad.I resent that I have to be worried about being insulted for my religeon on line.

Interesting replies, all of you Some comments, I will return with more to other posters later:

@Marharlika: Many sociological studies and such, show that Asian countries value education more than Europe and US. Why is that do you think? Is it because it's so difficult to get a decent job otherwise? Or are there other reasons also like traditions? Is education the best/easiest way to a good life? (In Sweden for instance you certainly don't need an academic degree to have a good life, but you need one if choosing your job by personal preference rather than market demand is important to you.)

@Fas: The usage of calucators might have something to do with math skills. In all Western European countries and the US, students are allowed to use calculator quite early. Russia, India and East Asia are contries often renowned for having students and professionals with great maths skills. Perhaps it easier to develop high math skills if you learn how maths work without a calculator from the start? Or are math skills just less valued in Europe and US? I wouldn't think so, since it's very easy for Indian programmers and Russian mathematicians to get very good jobs in Europe and US.

@Minerva: I understand if you feel many threads have deteriorated and many racist, bigot and discriminating comments have been posted. However, I do think it's of importance to discuss different cultures and religions, since learning is the only way to change. I also think this particular topic is of general interest because "ignorant" Americans is a negative epothome that is flying around in society. And avoiding loaded topics, is unfortunately the best way to keep prejudice and misinformed generalisation.

@Lazarus: I hope you do not see any need to take offense. No, would never have considered posting an "ignorant Africans/Mexicans/Russians"-thread, since to my knowledge, no such expression or image exists, instead, people from various coutries in Africa, Mexico or Russia are targets for other generalised epithomes. It's also pretty obvious that most countries in Africa are very poor and don't have a school system that includes the majority of children.

However, many ethnic groups/nationalities are labelled with generalised epithomes, and IMO it would be equally interesting to examine the concept of "cultivated Englishmen" (why are Brits, mainly the English, often viewed as highly cultivated?) or "

Sure I remember Weasel's list, but I don't fully understand the connection between successful minority groups, freedom and my questions about the image of American "ignorance". Do you mean freedom causes people to behave in such a way so that other cultures might view this as ignorance?

Aside from this discussion, another question: You say the US is the most free nation on earth. In what respects are the US more free than for instance France, Holland or Sweden? What variables are you using when you compare different countries?

You neighbour might be "ignorant" about Kosovo, but IMO the issue in your example would not boil down to "ignorance", it would boil down to personal moral and values. What we feel "has to do with us" in highly individual, and differences in politics and culture affects us a lot here.

According to my personal moral and values, everybody should care about other people's suffering and especially we in the rich world who has the power to do anything about it. I could present a lot of arguments why I think we should care about world events in general, but that's beside the point. Your example points out something that might be relevant to my questions: Do you think Americans feel less concerned about "world events" than other people in the industrialised world? (I obviusly don't count people who have limited or no access to media.) Sure there are people like your example neighbour everywhere, but do you think such values are more common in the US than elsewhere? If so, then the alleged "ignorance" might simply be a cultural difference in values.

The international and national comparisons I know of are aimed at comparing the educational systems, not the people. I think the idea is that all students in all nations the same opportunites to learn skills that are of importance worldwide for both society and the indivudual, so I guess the comparison is like checking what contries need to improve, and perhaps also give an opportunity to learn from educations systems that manage to transfer a higher degree of knowledge to students.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]

Originally posted by at99:
<STRONG>Please look at the meaning of 'racist'. This is a harsh claim and I am not against a race.
This thorin guy was making a silly claim and needed to be put back in his place. Where in this thread have I been racist.</STRONG>

I don't think you have posted racist comments in this thread, but you have in other threads, and since you posted offensive material about Thorin's culture, he might not have a very high opinion about you. However, I think you and Thorin should take to PM if you have an issue.

But you at99, is obviously not familiar with the term "cultural racism" although I posted a long explanation of this in the Afghanistan thread where you posted your previous racist comments. Please go back and read my post in that thread. [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001507&p=4"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001507&p=4[/url]

Racism is not only to discriminate people because of biological race, biological race doesn't even exist - homo sapiens is an extremely genetically homogenous species, no subspecies like "races" exist. What does exist is look and ethnic/cultural background. If you think you can hide your previous derogative comments about "Arab cultures" behind claims that they are not racist comments, they comment culture, then you make exactly the same argument as neo-nazis do when they claim "sure we hate Jews, but that's not racisms, Jews are not a biological race, it's a culture (since there are Jews of many different origins and anyone can convert to Jewish)". Do you see why biological racism and culture racism is equally immoral? At99, you need to realise that cultural racism is not any better or less serious than biological (look-based) racism. If you don't realise this, you are going to be banned from this board soner or later. If you have anything more to say about this, please PM me.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>I don't think you have posted racist comments in this thread, but you have in other threads, and since you posted offensive material about Thorin's culture, he might not have a very high opinion about you. However, I think you and Thorin should take to PM if you have an issue.

But you at99, is obviously not familiar with the term "cultural racism" although I posted a long explanation of this in the Afghanistan thread where you posted your previous racist comments. Please go back and read my post in that thread. [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001507&p=4"]http://www.gamebanshee.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001507&p=4[/url]

Racism is not only to discriminate people because of biological race, biological race doesn't even exist - homo sapiens is an extremely genetically homogenous species, no subspecies like "races" exist. What does exist is look and ethnic/cultural background. If you think you can hide your previous derogative comments about "Arab cultures" behind claims that they are not racist comments, they comment culture, then you make exactly the same argument as neo-nazis do when they claim "sure we hate Jews, but that's not racisms, Jews are not a biological race, it's a culture (since there are Jews of many different origins and anyone can convert to Jewish)". Do you see why biological racism and culture racism is equally immoral? At99, you need to realise that cultural racism is not any better or less serious than biological (look-based) racism. If you don't realise this, you are going to be banned from this board soner or later. If you have anything more to say about this, please PM me.</STRONG>

c Elegans I think your arguments a naive.
Racism is defined as being against a race because you believe your race as being superior. There is no definition of culture in the racism dictionary entry nor am I aware of any airy-fairy culture-racism in the dictionary.

Is it racist to dislike a form of government which is not generally liked by your population. Is it racist to disprove of some non-secular forms of lifestyle. Is it racist to query a culture economic output as being below par? Is it racist to query a religion?

A lot of media outlets, news, radio and TV of many stations are asking these questions (IN PUBLIC, currently, on air). Millions of peoplee are asking these questions. I feel you have not being quite aware of current issues.

In a demorcacy we ask these questions of ourselves and others for the intent of finding better ways of doing things. Not by hiding under rocks because your too afraid of speaking in case you offend someone.

This topic is about ignorant Americans or what you think. Are you not violating your own definition of racism. I find you quite ironic. America as a race or culture, you are finding fault with this are you not?

If Thorin feelings are hurt, so!. You are assuming he has a right to be hurt. You go and sort it out with him.

I dont mind if non-westerners insult western culture since I dont believe it is perfect.
(Feel free to critisize wetern culture, this is speak your mind).

I respect your opinion but if your going to accuse me personally of trendy accusations your going to have to be a bit smarter than this.

IN future you are wiser to stick to your topic which I think is a good one.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>

@Marharlika: Many sociological studies and such, show that Asian countries value education more than Europe and US. Why is that do you think? Is it because it's so difficult to get a decent job otherwise? Or are there other reasons also like traditions? Is education the best/easiest way to a good life? (In Sweden for instance you certainly don't need an academic degree to have a good life, but you need one if choosing your job by personal preference rather than market demand is important to you.)

</STRONG>

Speaking based on my observation here in Thailand and in the Philippines the general thinking is precisely that: If you want to have a good life, YOU JUST HAVE TO GET THAT (COLLEGE)DIPLOMA. Life is hard for most of the ASEAN countries as you would prob look at the per capita income of each country (IIRC Singapore has a very high PCI compared to its ASEAN neighbors).

Getting that diploma will give you an edge (theoretically) in landing a decent-paying job. In reality, getting that diploma is not even enough. Students coming from the best schools almost always get the better jobs. And at times that is not even enough, having a post-graduate degree will surely give you a lot of ammo to get those jobs you wanted. I tell you, it's a rat race for us out there.

However if you opt for a very simple life, going to the rural areas would give you the basic necessities sans the luxury/comfort(?) of modern living. If you are contented with that, then getting a degree is not that important.

I cannot say much on Western culture, but for most Asians family ties are very strong. The parents would go at almost any length (even if the child is over 25) to ensure their children's success in life. Education is the key to success for us. More often than not you would still see mid-20's people still staying with their parents even when they have a job or taking post-graduate courses. The children would be able to save more than if they stay on their own. Generally the parents do not mind, and more often even prefer it that way (so long as you still follow their rules of the house).

Another thing, for most poor families, getting a diploma for their children is the (nuclear) family's ticket out of the pits of poverty. So at times, you would have the children who graduated first, become the family's breadwinner and support the education of the next sibling. These people would forgo getting married and have their own life not until the have finished their "obligation" to their parents.

BTW, we do not have welfare, so if you do not have the money to support yourself and your family, well....

Anyway, IMHO having a good life makes one not strive for more in the long run. That is why perhaps that most developed countries would have their citizens not bother much on (further and intense?) education because they had it made already with the help of the government.

If you will notice, most of the social groups mentioned that excel in education have(is it safe to say?) experienced a certain degree of difficulty in their own over-all lives than most western societies. But then again I could be wrong on this.

What amazes me though is the INTENSE DISCIPLINE/DEDICATION that most Japanese have as to their studies and/or work.

After WWII there was a great need for their country to rise from the ashes. Look at the rapid progress that they made through the years --- and they're still not complacent. They still do their thing with so much passion.

On another note: don't be misled by statistics and observation. The problem that I see re: education for us is the QUALITY of education.

Coz one thing I hate are having mediocre teachers who just mechanically do their job with no excellence in mind when they work.

Sorry CE if I may not be able to answer your queries efficiently at the moment. Lots of things in my mind right now. But somehow I felt that I just HAD to make an input before I get lazy or forget to answer them at all.

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Maharlika ]

Hmm, all this critical appraisal of America based on generalisation makes me less likely to speak in a reasonable way.

IMHO, I don't think I've ever come across a person from Asia who *hasn't* had a degree or PhD or something in Medicine or Engineering or Astrophysics. That makes me incredibly suspicious of the quality of such qualifications.

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
<STRONG>
IMHO, I don't think I've ever come across a person from Asia who *hasn't* had a degree or PhD or something in Medicine or Engineering or Astrophysics. That makes me incredibly suspicious of the quality of such qualifications.</STRONG>

Surely, the *fake* ones wouldn't be able to be effective and credible enough to continue their profession, would they?

Originally posted by Gruntboy:
<STRONG>Hmm, all this critical appraisal of America based on generalisation makes me less likely to speak in a reasonable way.

IMHO, I don't think I've ever come across a person from Asia who *hasn't* had a degree or PhD or something in Medicine or Engineering or Astrophysics. That makes me incredibly suspicious of the quality of such qualifications.</STRONG>

No have your say.
I think there is too much Amercian bashing.

Your remarks might be regarded as cultural racism (I have no idea what this means but ask c elegans)

CE, I know you meant well to start this thread, but the timing of it can be better. There have been so many cultural/religious bashing since the September 11th, people are more sensitive to these kind of conversation than they usual are. Some people may take as offence, even though you don't mean to, and some people may take it as the opportunity to go offence against other culture.

Personally, I think we should wait to talk about these (not just this thread, but also some posted by others) for a few month, until people are really settled down.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>
@Minerva: I understand if you feel many threads have deteriorated and many racist, bigot and discriminating comments have been posted. However, I do think it's of importance to discuss different cultures and religions, since learning is the only way to change. I also think this particular topic is of general interest because "ignorant" Americans is a negative epothome that is flying around in society. And avoiding loaded topics, is unfortunately the best way to keep prejudice and misinformed generalisation.

</STRONG>

I agree with you on this, CE. But we must be aware that this is thin ice we are threading as not everyone would INITIALLY view your point as such.

In fairness to at99, I do not think that offending anyone or group in particular was what he had in mind.

That explains his hurt reaction when being accused of being a racist.

On the other hand, I empathize with Thorin's remarks as seemingly an attack against his culture-per-se.

I would think that all of us do not have ANY DELIBERATE INTENTION of offending anyone, much less like being accused of being a racist.

The key here, my friends, is to try to understand where the other person is coming from.

The problem is that we tend to judge/comment/react/think on a certain issue/concept based on our culture (socio-political-religious) or personal paradigm.

It's not our fault. It is simply normal behaviour. Where else will you base it anyway in order to arrive in a certain way of evaluation?

By talking among ourselves without having any fear of being tagged as a racist/chauvinist/etc. would give us some light on certain preconceptions that are deemed negative thoughts. Let's just be true to ourselves and speak one's mind.

Being away from my own country and practically surrounded by "foreigners" gave me a golden opportunity to WIDEN MY PERSPECTIVE and OUTLOOK on certain things and issues and other cultures. Being with people who always share your views makes you think that what you think and what you thought all along is always the right thing.

Therefore, if you encounter somebody who would go against the grain of your culture would be somebody who is offensive...

...even if the person concerned was just being culturally himself without any intention of offending anyone.

Take for example, I am a Catholic and some of your comments would deem to be very offensive when spoken in my country. If I were living in my country all my life without learning or being aware much of where you guys are coming from (i.e., culture, not just the physical sense), I would have cursed you as blasphemous and wished I "could burn you at the stake."

But such is not what I think. (Yes Fable, I never wished I could burn you at the stake. )

However, if you were Catholic, brought up as one the way we Filipinos were raised, AND STILL said such things, that would be a whole different matter...

On the side, a number of people (not just Americans) are "ignorant" on certain things simply because of a number of reasons like:

...there was the absence of the NEED to know.
...they have a lot more things to be more concerned about personally or domestic.
... they just do not have the opportunity/privileged(?) to at least be aware of it.

Hmmm... got lots of things to say a while ago but they slipped my mind... that's okay, I got a long post on this anyway.

My friends, COMMUNICATION is the key ingredient here.

No, the previous statement has nothing to do with Weasel's cult.

There's a time and thread for such comments. This is not one of them.

Peace, brethren.

@At99, i really wonder about you, do you even know what the forum rules state, I quote "Flaming, humiliating, ridiculing, or belittling other members will not be tolerated. If you have an issue with another member, take it to private messages or email."

You can in no way argue with your breaking of these rules, you have ridiculed 2 members, it is not the first time, you continue to do it, you may have valid arguments, - i am not sure on that issue - however the way you conduct yourself and your general manner towards other members is less than satisfactory. You could have taken these personal problems to PM, but you decided to make a big deal of it in this discussion.

Consider yourself warned (And not for the fist time )

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Mr Sleep ]

@ C Elegens;

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>...<snip>...@Lazarus: I hope you do not see any need to take offense. No, would never have considered posting an "ignorant Africans/Mexicans/Russians"-thread, since to my knowledge, no such expression or image exists, instead, people from various coutries in Africa, Mexico or Russia are targets for other generalised epithomes. It's also pretty obvious that most countries in Africa are very poor and don't have a school system that includes the majority of children.</STRONG>

I understand. Perhaps it is the term "ignorant" which is particularly provocative. I understand the stereotype you are trying to express about Americans, but the term "ignorant" has some very specific and rather unpleasant connotations. It is a very belittling term - very condescending. My questioning the use vis-a-vis another nationality was an attempt not to bring up new stereotypes (whether they exist or not), but to show THAT word next to other nations titles. I think the mere intimation that we would have a discussion about "ignorant Mexicans/Russians/Africans" would be grounds for banning - but when dealing with the "ignorant Americans," no one is supposed to take offense. Again, I guestion whether this is right. ANY stereotype is just a petty form of racism. It is developing an opinion of people without any knowledge of individuals, but somehow letting race or nationality determine your thoughts on the subject.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>However, many ethnic groups/nationalities are labelled with generalised epithomes, and IMO it would be equally interesting to examine the concept of "cultivated Englishmen" (why are Brits, mainly the English, often viewed as highly cultivated?)</STRONG>

See above. I do not know why people possess the foolish prejudices that they do. It is simply an evasion of the responsibility of actually taking the time to learn and understand. As such, I don't know that much "debate" on the subject is worthwhile.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>Sure I remember Weasel's list, but I don't fully understand the connection between successful minority groups, freedom and my questions about the image of American "ignorance". Do you mean freedom causes people to behave in such a way so that other cultures might view this as ignorance?</STRONG>

My reference to Weasel's post was specifically aimed at a larger point: the US rewards success, and that is a central aspect of our nation. We (as I stated) wish to live, be free, and be happy. Whether fortunately or unfortunately, however, we happen to be a "superpower," and this forces certain international issues into our national government. It may be that the average American would really rather just let the world move on by and not have to worry about what is happening in the middle east. I don't know that that is a BAD thing. And I certainly don't think it indicates "ignorance."

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>Aside from this discussion, another question: You say the US is the most free nation on earth. In what respects are the US more free than for instance France, Holland or Sweden? What variables are you using when you compare different countries?</STRONG>

You are correct this is defintely a side issue. I do believe that you and I have skirted this issue a couple of times - perhaps it is worth a PM? In essence, I view freedom as inherently bound up with governmental oversight and size. The more government a nation has, the less free they become. The US is moving away from small government, but it is still the smallest that I am aware of in a modern and industrialized nation.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>You neighbour might be "ignorant" about Kosovo, but IMO the issue in your example would not boil down to "ignorance", it would boil down to personal moral and values. What we feel "has to do with us" in highly individual, and differences in politics and culture affects us a lot here.</STRONG>

Exactly. See, now you are putting quotation marks around the term ignorant as well!

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>According to my personal moral and values, everybody should care about other people's suffering and especially we in the rich world who has the power to do anything about it. I could present a lot of arguments why I think we should care about world events in general, but that's beside the point. Your example points out something that might be relevant to my questions: Do you think Americans feel less concerned about "world events" than other people in the industrialised world? (I obviusly don't count people who have limited or no access to media.) Sure there are people like your example neighbour everywhere, but do you think such values are more common in the US than elsewhere? If so, then the alleged "ignorance" might simply be a cultural difference in values.</STRONG>

This paragraph has a lot of fun points! First: other people suffering in the world may or may not be of concern to me. They are to you, and that is fine. My neighbor? Why the heck should a starving man in Afghanistan be of any concern to him? Why should that starving man have the right to take the bread from my neighbors mouth? Because THAT is what you indicate with your statement that the US "has the power" to do something about it. You are saying that the US should take money from its citizens, and ship it overseas to starving and homeless people. My neighbor does NOT understand this at all! He is of the opinion that if he WANTED to help people, he could DONATE money to the Red Cross or UNICEF or Doctors without Frontiers; but he'll be damned if he is going to be happy about having his tax money to to helping people that he has never met, never will meet, and has no interest in whatsoever.

Kosovo is a particularly interesting case in point. My neighbor doesn't care one bit about Kosovo. But maybe Greek citizens would have more interest in the subject since it is closer to home: they are dealing with refugees, etc. So the average Greek citizen may be more aware of the situation on Kosovo, and may be more interested in seeing it resolved. Does this make my neighbor more "ignorant" than the Greeks? No, it means that he simply has a different perspective on the situation.

And, to answer your other point: do I think my neighbor is typical of the US? Maybe. I don't know, and I wouldn't care to guess. To imply, however, that this is a "cultural difference" is, as far as I can tell, exactly this idea of culture racism that you are concerned about. The entire concept of a stereotype, as I have said, is a form of racism. As such, it has no place in anyones thought process. To those who persist in such stereotypes, I say: get over it. It is a barrier to understanding.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>The international and national comparisons I know of are aimed at comparing the educational systems, not the people. I think the idea is that all students in all nations the same opportunites to learn skills that are of importance worldwide for both society and the indivudual, so I guess the comparison is like checking what contries need to improve, and perhaps also give an opportunity to learn from educations systems that manage to transfer a higher degree of knowledge to students.</STRONG>

Hmmm. I understand your point, but I am not entirely sure I agree. I guess my main difficulty is in believing that any test which is supposed to be standardized and fair for the entire world is even a possibility. It may serve to indicate trends, but more than that ... I think it just serves to perpetuate stereotypes. Again, I find that counter-productive.

You are getting a lot of flak for this subject. As I stated, I understand your overall interest in the idea of stereotypes, and I do not question your scholarly intent. However, I do question the use of the term "ignorant," and I do question the utility of discussing peoples stereotypes.

But I can't resist a good debate!

Edit: for clarity

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Lazarus ]

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
<STRONG>
Well how would you what it would be like?
The Ottomans ruled over Christians and Jews and they didn't do a thing to them, except one incident.
Coming from a racist person like you I don't think we should bother to listen to you.
Screw personal attacks, You attacked my culture, so screw whatever apology you want.</STRONG>

I would have to agree with 99. I would say that 65% of Americans are arrogant. From what I read from his post, he wasn't being racist.

With you calling 99 a racist, just proves that Americans are arrogant. I'm American and I can be very arrogant.

If you really want to see American ignorance? Just read Fable's posts.

Yeah, that fable is one ignorant American MF.

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>@At99, i really wonder about you, do you even know what the forum rules state, I quote "Flaming, humiliating, ridiculing, or belittling other members will not be tolerated. If you have an issue with another member, take it to private messages or email."

You can in no way argue with your breaking of these rules, you have ridiculed 2 members, it is not the first time, you continue to do it, you may have valid arguments, - i am not sure on that issue - however the way you conduct yourself and your general manner towards other members is less than satisfactory. You could have taken these personal problems to PM, but you decided to make a big deal of it in this discussion.

Consider yourself warned (And not for the fist time )

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Mr Sleep ]</STRONG>

Sleep, as an arrogant American. I protest, the abuse that you are giving AT99. He speaks the truth, Americans are arrogant and ignorant.

Some problems I have with the public schools in the US.

Poorly paid teachers.

Rich & Poor districts.

Socially problematic student bodies-
ie...immigration (largely illegal)has put a burden on schools in the west and south that now have to adjust to teach bilingual programs. These students come from families that do work (very hard) in the community and spend money, yet do not generally own homes or pay school taxes.
ie...There also exists a racial and religious diversity, each with its own sensitivities, unlike anywhere else in the world.
ie...The pressures of teenage society can be overwhelming for students. Strong social pressures (what you wear, how you look)also work against a students focus.

IMHO the school systems in the US are flawed.
The schools here have to deal with a lot of problems not found anywhere else in the world. Many of those problems, along with uniquely american social flaws, provide a watering down effect.

There will always be pockets of exceptional programs, teachers and students in the US, but until we can attract the exceptional teachers and adminstators with the $$$, the public school systems are doomed to be average.

BTW....I thought the prevailing international impression was that all americans were born rich? Who needs to be smart when your rich. I would also add that the whole ignorant routine is a ploy. Why should we display how smart we are? I say we are covering up our intelligence as part of a massive disinformation(sp?) campaign.(tongue firmly in cheek)

It worked. Dumb yanks...