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dzidek1983 wrote:you can always use Ring Of Might to make space for the power attack -> cleave feats

don't forget teh circle kick feat

don't you need moblity and dodge for that feat?

nope

just 15+ dex and attack bonus +3

Ripuanewhole wrote:Scott G. I'm curious as to why you would take a high attack over a high AC in the OC, or any other campain for that matter.

I'd agree in a PVP scenario at high levels, but having played both types in the OC and the other campaigns, a Strength-based build is usually more effective.

Lets look at the OC..

Level 3

Monk unarmed damage ='s 1d6 or an average of 3 damage per attack (assuming that all attacks hit). With a Dexterity build that's it.

With a Strength build as suggested it's the 3 average + 4 from Strength = 7 per attack. THEN add in Cleave.

vs.

As much as +3 AC for the Dexterity build over the Strength build.


Its a "race" here - to see if you can kill your opponents more quickly vs. the extra time spent *trying* to kill them where they have additional attacks against you. The Strength build kills a LOT more quickly, but in that short span of time is more easily hit. The Dexterity build kills much more slowly and exposes you to many more attacks, BUT your AC is higher and you are less likely to get hit *per round* - DEPENDING ON THE OPPONENT(S). Unfortunately many of the opponents at these lower levels are Strength based builds with both good attack numbers AND encompass multiple opponents.

Having played *BOTH*, I know that on average the Strength build is quite a bit better at this level. (..and this is something you can test for yourself fairly easily.)


Level 9 (not including attribute modifiers):

Monk unarmed damage ='s 1d10 or an average of 5.
Usually add-in +1 Gloves at this time.

Dexterity build ='s a net 6 damage on average per attack.

Strength build ='s that amount + *5* damage ='s an average of 11 per attack. (..and with both Cleaves.)

The AC for the Dexterity build is just on point better ='s at best 4 AC above the Strength build.



Even at level 20 you are at best only +5 AC over a Strength based build.


What is NOT apparent from looking at the base damage are the inclusion of criticals. Criticals "leverage" physical damage ONLY. (..not magical/adamantine or elemental damage.) For a Dexterity build the critical would simply be the unarmed damage dealt * 2. If you hit with an average of 3 damage, (the Dexterity build at level 3), then the critical would be 6 in damage. If you hit with an average of 7, (the Strength build at level 3), then the critical would be 14. At 3rd level the 14 in damage is often enough to out-right kill an opponent. The 6 damage is not. This further helps the Strength based build to "clean-up" *quickly*. Note that the Power Attacks ALSO add to the critical damage calculation (..as do additional Strength modifiers). EDIT: the Power Attacks however do NOT work with Flurry of Blows - so they are useless (..excepting the prerequisite for the Cleaves).


I'll respond to the rest in my next post..

Ripuanewhole wrote: In my experiance, you spend a lot less time and money on healing if you make your melee characters as untouchable as possible. I've fought with builds that had deadly attacks, but because I sacraficed AC to get them there, I had a hard time keeping them alive. On the flip side, I've had builds with very low attacks, but because they couldn't be hit, they eventually made it out of the fight virtually unscathed. For that reason I always look for ways to beef up my AC at the Expense of attack. The great thing about weapon finesse and dexterity is that you can do both at the same time, where the only sacrifice is attack power. If you're weapon is sufficiently enhanced that shouldn't be a problem either.

Healing kits are pretty much ONLY for healing during battle. You can of course *also* use them to heal health "status" effects (..though generally after battle).

Most of the time however you simply "rest" to regain health.

The average result then is that you seldom use healing kits, except in tough battles, and even then - not that often.

Sadly the fact is that BOTH builds need this. The reason is that those occasions where the Dexterity build *is* hit tend to have a much higher percentage of criticals (..where perhaps it takes a 20 to hit that character). Those criticals can often come close to killing your character (..so you need to heal).



As far as "enchanting" your weapon (and equalizing any damage for a Dexterity build)?

Umm, no - at least not with the OC.

Gloves are not enchantable in the OC, and it only goes from bad to worse here:

1. Damage is elemental and usually very low - often at best 1d6 (average 3) of damage that could be resisted/reduced. (..at very best 2d6, average 6.) This damage is not added into the critical multiplier calculation.

2. Glove attack bonuses are not enhancement bonuses - i.e. NO ADDITIONAL DAMAGE. Moreover no additional physical damage that stacks (to overcome damage reduction or enhance criticals).

Finally let's talk about some "extras":


High Dexterity builds will have a few things going for them beyond AC.

1. Higher Reflex saves. (..for those rare traps, and potentially evocation spells that aren't resisted (assuming you have spell resistance).)

2. Modest enhancements to those Dexterity-based skills.


On the other hand the Strength build has:

Knockdown - which is *exceedingly* useful against magic-casters. Stunning Fist is unlikely to work against a great many of these opponents with any consistency. Knockdown on the other hand should USUALLY work against them. In fact these types of opponents are often the most troublesome and should *always* be killed first (if in a group). If you see a group with caster then your first action should be run and knock it down, then kill it. Without good Strength Knockdown is worthless. (..note that Stunning Fist is more useful against "boss-type" melee opponents.)

dzidek1983 wrote:
don't forget teh circle kick feat

FORGET CIRCLE KICK.

The problem with it is that it switches to a different attacker and stays with that attacker until it's dead or another circle kick is activated (usually the latter).

Basically this prolongs the life-span of ALL opponents attacking you - allowing for additional attacks against your character.

I just tested a 3 level build.

Dexterity - Strongheart Halfling with *20* Dexterity, AND the feat "Luck of Heros". Net AC was 19.

Strength - Half Orc as mentioned.

1 - I'd forgotten that Power Attack doesn't work with Flurry of blows. That leaves out the Improved Power Attack suggestion I made, other wise everything else is correct.

2 - The Strength build with the Cleaves just *owns* the Dexterity build. The reason: 19 AC is still insufficient to adequately protect against multiple attackers. The Strength based build however just hammered the opponents, killing them quickly enough even at this low level - leaving fewer and fewer attackers to make attacks.

what about blazing aura?

I have tried dex builds for monks, and ive tried strength, but unlike prior posters, I am a firm believer that wisdom is the MOST important stat for a monk.

you can play halforc if you want, for the RP. but he will overall be pretty weak. with the monk class, multiclassing is not the best option. this is how i built my monk :

Aasimar Monk

14 Strength
16 Dexterity
12 Constitution
10 Intelligence
18 Wisdom
10 Charisma

Skills : Hide, Move Silently, Diplomacy, Tumble.

take your basic combat feats early on. Power attack, cleave, great cleave, weapon focus unarmed strike. Every new stat you get, put it in wisdom. all your wanted combat feats should be gained by the time you hit 20. once you get the expansion, all feats you should get is improved spell resistance and then blazing aura when its available. you need 25 wisdom to get blazing aura.

with the basic gear from starting out in MotB, my 30 monk has 48 AC, 50 SR. blazing aura adds another 1d10 fire damage to your attacks, as well as 1d6 damage if they land a hit on you.

not too shabby

Raumoheru wrote:I have tried dex builds for monks, and ive tried strength, but unlike prior posters, I am a firm believer that wisdom is the MOST important stat for a monk.

you can play halforc if you want, for the RP. but he will overall be pretty weak. with the monk class, multiclassing is not the best option. this is how i built my monk :

Aasimar Monk

14 Strength
16 Dexterity
12 Constitution
10 Intelligence
18 Wisdom
10 Charisma

Skills : Hide, Move Silently, Diplomacy, Tumble.

take your basic combat feats early on. Power attack, cleave, great cleave, weapon focus unarmed strike. Every new stat you get, put it in wisdom. all your wanted combat feats should be gained by the time you hit 20. once you get the expansion, all feats you should get is improved spell resistance and then blazing aura when its available. you need 25 wisdom to get blazing aura.

with the basic gear from starting out in MotB, my 30 monk has 48 AC, 50 SR. blazing aura adds another 1d10 fire damage to your attacks, as well as 1d6 damage if they land a hit on you.

not too shabby

A few things here:

1. This post only referenced the OC, NOT MOTB.

2. Your attacks numbers will not increase with Wisdom for melee attacks (..though with wisdom archery you could go the shuriken route.) This leaves your attack bonus at +2 (or +3 with Weapon Finesse and your 16 in Dexterity).*

3. Your Strength damage will be "capped" at +2.*

4. Your Constitution at 12 will have fewer hit-points (which leaves it more prone to a fatal critical).*

5. Knockdown will be much less effective.*

6. As a "Hide" character - Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble all have Dexterity as a bonus.

7. The Assimar has a level penalty. Generally not a problem for a melee class, BUT a Monk is a medium BAB class - so it can be a problem, particularly at lower levels.

8. Will saves improve.

9. Stunning Fist improves. BUT see #2 above (..especially in combination with a -4 penalty and against melee opponents that are likely to have good or excellent AC.)

Stunning Fist - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more


..and on to Epic (non-OC) issues:

10. Blazing Aura - each attack (that hits) is only an average of +5 damage. Worse, its fire damage is by far the most resisted/reduced/immune elemental damage type in the game. Again, it *also* does not add to critical multipliers OR stack for physical damage reduction compensation. The average of +3 fire damage "flame shield" has similar problems and is weaker.

11. Epic Feat Improved Spell Resistance - is available for an Epic Monk regardless of Wisdom attributes. (..it is of course an excellent epic feat for an Epic Monk or a Spell Resistance Race with 13+ levels of the Monk class.)



* without attribute additional augmentation




I've not *played*, but have tested, several combinations of Wisdom Monk builds before.

They were NOT as effective as a Strength build, or even a Dexterity build. The problem was not simply damage, but attack numbers. You can change that with a multi-class structure, but it isn't advised for the Monk generally, and certainly not in the OC.

all this info haha..but very usefull, I have to say
one more question: who'd be best paired up with a half-orc monk?I adviced khelgar,sand,elanee and zhaejeve but since I've already asked you guys for advice on the build might as well ask you this too.

arryjan wrote:all this info haha..but very usefull, I have to say
one more question: who'd be best paired up with a half-orc monk?I adviced khelgar,sand,elanee and zhaejeve but since I've already asked you guys for advice on the build might as well ask you this too.

Because of this thread I wanted to do some more thorough testing.. So as it happens I'm puttering through the OC right now.

The only difference is that I have all 3 campaigns and am using a Grey Orc instead of a Half-Orc. There is that level penalty which is noticeable, though not unbearable with a Strength build, and a Sun light penalty. The only thing I get in return is +1 modifier bonus to Wisdom and a cool looking Mord Sidth look.

That 16 Wisdom probably isn't worth the penalties, but it's interesting to play.

BTW, I'm currently at character level 7 (8 for a no-level penalty build), and Khelgar is still a better melee'er. I'm almost certain that the balance will shift in favor of the Monk by character level 11 (12 for a no-level penalty build), when I get Greater Flurry.

When Khelgar had only one attack per round, BUT with Power Attack and both Cleaves he was marginally better than my Flurry with 2 attacks per round. Once he got 2 attacks he became significantly better (..he has something like 13 & 8 with my Monk's 8 & 8.)

I should also mention that Stunning Fist hasn't been working from my character, ..which is rather disappointing. Note that it is "working", it just isn't effective most of the time. (..those times when I do "hit" they often make their will save despite having low will saves.)

Anyway..

Who you should have in your party is largely dependent on the game itself - particularly with NPC quests, and/or If you are interested in opening chests.

Obviously you'll need Neeshka for those areas where you want to open chests, particularly if you can't come back to that area again. Fortunately such areas that you can't come back to are overall rare, so you can usually do your dungeon crawl without Neeshka, and then latter come back with her to do the lock picking.

Of all the NPC's, Khelgar is the only one I would pretty much always keep. The one I almost never use is the Paladin (Cassavir). He is pretty much a poor version of Khelgar, so what's the point? (..hell, Shandra's a better melee'er than he is.)

I also dislike the Druid (Elanee), her character acting is annoying and doesn't work well with Khelgar or Neeshka. Moreover she doesn't get really powerful until near the end of the game, most of the time then she is a poor melee'er. She is usually the first NPC quest I'll do once I get into Neverwinter, then I dump her and good riddance. She *is* useful for Barkskin however. With all 3 campaigns installed she can become a LOT better with the Dino pet feat.

The Cleric comes in about the time and level to be useful, and pretty much "plays nice" with everyone. I'm not particularly fond of the character, but she is useful.

Bishop is also annoying, and a marginally better ranged attacker than Neeshka. On the other hand he can't pick locks or disarm traps.

The Sorceress is annoying, but is also powerful. Its really a question of *if* you can put up with her. Moreover, Sand *can* be quite a bit more powerful overall, so why put up with her when Sand is better?

Sand is the *2nd* character I would choose for my party. Getting him to Scribe Scrolls and Craft Wands (with the right spells), can make him extraordinarly powerful.

Grobnar is a utilility character, and "tied" to the Blade Golem. Not exactly a "powerhouse" character. The Golem is decent, but Khelgar is better still.

(..as for Ammon and Shandra, well you don't have much choice with them.)

ok. but can't you just make elanee as much of an archer as possible then?given the fact that she's a wood elf would imply that she's good with a longbow, especially as she's a support character with her spells.

so really..you'd go for: khelgar,zhaejeve,neeshka,sand?
'

arryjan wrote:ok. but can't you just make elanee as much of an archer as possible then?given the fact that she's a wood elf would imply that she's good with a longbow, especially as she's a support character with her spells.

so really..you'd go for: khelgar,zhaejeve,neeshka,sand?
'

Sure you can use Elanee for an archer.. BUT some of her offensive spells focus on her position, so for those spells you need to have enemies surrounding her (..which is something you generally don't want for an archer). Moreover, she has good protection spells AND Flame Weapon and Body of the Sun, which again are melee-centric.

There is also the problem of feats.

IF you help the Merchant Galen in the beginning (Fort Locke) you can get the archery braces that have Point Blank Shot feat from him. (..so that's one less feat you have to spend.)

You should also make sure that you do at most *one* of the two Fort Locke side quests, so that you can pick Elanee up BEFORE you hit level 6 (for her). That way you can select the feat you want her to have for level 6. (..this should be done regardless of your decision for Archery or Melee for her.) Note that you can still do the 2nd Fort Locke quest after you finish the Mere quest.

With regard to influence points, there isn't much you can do with her before hitting Neverwinter. Before then you either side with her or not. Depending on how you do it, you can keep Khelgar and Neeshka's *negative* influences to a minimum. The one time when you might not want to is in Highcliff with the "bar rowdies" that try to pick a fight as soon as you get to Highcliff. There you might want to side with Khelgar for the +2 points (..and the -1 for Elannee). AT Neverwinter you can get rid of most of your problems with her by specifically not including her in your party when staying around Neverwinter (..or perhaps more specifically for Neeshka's "quests"). Neverwinter side-quests should utilize her however.

She's actually well suited to your Monk (despite her "romance" thread for role-playing), BECAUSE she is excellent at "buffing" the Monk. And of course she gets a LOT better as she level's-up. Still, I'd keep her as a spell-sword rather than an Archer (..and she can use a longsword - with the Astral Blade available from the Bandit Leader for the Bandit/Fort Locke side quest).

It's really a matter of *if* she is worth the trouble (..rather like Qara)? With the Monk, probably yes. This is especially true with all 3 campaigns where you can have her dino pet.

So where does that leave me?

In order of preference (for a Monk):

Khelgar, Sand, Elanee, (utility character of choice).

(Note however that Sand does not have access to Mage Armor or Improved Mage Armor, while Qara can.)

(..of course considering role-playing, Elves and Dwarves have a pathological hatred of Orcs or those with Orc blood ..so it's more than "strange" with a Half-Orc.)

A few additional notes:

Purchase the Ring of Might from Judge Olaf at the Neverwinter Merchant's district as soon as possible. (..it provides improved critical unarmed attack and weapon specialization unarmed attack - this could be relied on instead of spending a feat on improved critical unarmed attack.) Note that Elanee's spell "Jagged Tooth" ALSO provides the "keen" function of Improved Critical for your Monk (..but they don't stack).

Purchase the Gloves of the Long Death +2 from Simi at the "Well" (when you have that opportunity). At that point most of the Undead (who are often immune to cold damage) are pretty rare AND most notably the damage tends to "freeze" the targets attacks, at the very least delaying their initiative (..perhaps far enough that you will kill them before they ever have a chance to attack). Note that you can also purchase the +1 version from Galen at Fort Locke.. BUT you will have several excursions with Undead around this time in the game, so generally not a good idea to wear them (against these opponents).

One definite revision: Select Great Cleave at level 6 and Blind Fight at level 9 (..basically swapping the 2 feats from the original build that was out-lined). For the most part, (assuming you do just about every quest when available), you won't be fighting many concealed opponents that Blindfight would be useful for. The exceptions: 2 groups of Shadows in the Crypts, and Rogue Sneak attackers (before they attack) in the City Watch version of Fihelis's Estate quest. NOT a big deal.

Immediately at the beginning of chapter 2 you can purchase (for around 30k) some gloves, (Great Wrym Guantlets from Fibba next to the Ships and the Sunken Flagon), with 2d6 of fire and a +6 attack bonus. This is the highest attack and damage bonus you can get in the game. Unfortunately they *also* come with a Dexterity penalty of -4. But with a Strength build, that doesn't effect your attack numbers, only your AC -2 and your Reflex save -2. They are worth it for the attack bonus, especially considering that you can have your AC buffed from any number of sources.

Scottg wrote:A few things here:

1. This post only referenced the OC, NOT MOTB.

2. Your attacks numbers will not increase with Wisdom for melee attacks (..though with wisdom archery you could go the shuriken route.) This leaves your attack bonus at +2 (or +3 with Weapon Finesse and your 16 in Dexterity).*

3. Your Strength damage will be "capped" at +2.*

4. Your Constitution at 12 will have fewer hit-points (which leaves it more prone to a fatal critical).*

5. Knockdown will be much less effective.*

6. As a "Hide" character - Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble all have Dexterity as a bonus.

7. The Assimar has a level penalty. Generally not a problem for a melee class, BUT a Monk is a medium BAB class - so it can be a problem, particularly at lower levels.

8. Will saves improve.

9. Stunning Fist improves. BUT see #2 above (..especially in combination with a -4 penalty and against melee opponents that are likely to have good or excellent AC.)

Stunning Fist - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki - Races, classes, skills, and more


..and on to Epic (non-OC) issues:

10. Blazing Aura - each attack (that hits) is only an average of +5 damage. Worse, its fire damage is by far the most resisted/reduced/immune elemental damage type in the game. Again, it *also* does not add to critical multipliers OR stack for physical damage reduction compensation. The average of +3 fire damage "flame shield" has similar problems and is weaker.

11. Epic Feat Improved Spell Resistance - is available for an Epic Monk regardless of Wisdom attributes. (..it is of course an excellent epic feat for an Epic Monk or a Spell Resistance Race with 13+ levels of the Monk class.)



* without attribute additional augmentation




I've not *played*, but have tested, several combinations of Wisdom Monk builds before.

They were NOT as effective as a Strength build, or even a Dexterity build. The problem was not simply damage, but attack numbers. You can change that with a multi-class structure, but it isn't advised for the Monk generally, and certainly not in the OC.

you are right, you do not get as many attacks per round, however the "cap" of only +2 pales in comparison to the avg dmg of blazing aura.

but something you are missing... is that although your overall damage may me slightly lower if you recorded the total damage done over a long period of time, your survivability will be much greater. and that is the point of the monk class, survivability.

If you actualy "played" the game, instead of a bunch of theorycrafting and testing, you would know this.

Raumoheru wrote:you are right, you do not get as many attacks per round, however the "cap" of only +2 pales in comparison to the avg dmg of blazing aura.

but something you are missing... is that although your overall damage may me slightly lower if you recorded the total damage done over a long period of time, your survivability will be much greater. and that is the point of the monk class, survivability.

If you actualy "played" the game, instead of a bunch of theorycrafting and testing, you would know this.

Well lets do some number crunching eh?

Blazing Aura provides an average of +5 damage per "hit" assuming fire damage isn't resisted ..at what, level 25? At that level the Strength build has at least +4 damage *beyond* a set +2 from 14 Strength of the Wisdom build. So yes, it's shy by 1 point per "hit" at around this level. But it doesn't factor in critical's or the +4 advantage in attack number. There also is no "cool-down" period for the damage or attack bonus.

The difference in AC is comparative with the attack/damage calculation - i.e. a +4 AC advantage from Wisdom at the same level for the Wisdom build vs. the Strength build.

+4 AC is nice, but over the life of the build (scaling up to +4), not even close to being worth the cost.



And yes, I do actually play the game.

(..and I also test builds in Battle of the Builds, the spawn arena of Vordans, and leveled builds for the first bit of MOTB.)

Please feel free to try-out the differences, I have.

I should also note that a well-crafted Sacred Fist can more than make up the difference for a Wisdom build. But it's a different character and really isn't what the original poster (arryjan) was asking about. Of course neither is any of this.

well i decided to pick up a monk again and do some testing to see what focus is best for monks, and i remember in NWN1 wisdom was the best for a fist monk because you needed wisdom to get +4 and +5 ki strikes.

however for NwN2, i tried a dex build for monk and although i dont have blazing aura, with weapon finesse i have the same AC yet more AB, so it seems worth it considering at 30, you can get 60+ AC so you need higher AB.

i should try out that mod you are talking about, because from what it seems the only real difference i can see from a strength build over a dex build is that you have less AC and more pure damage. having more AC as a monk seems much more logical to me, since the extra damage dealt can probably be made up in just one extra round of fighting, and the odds of taking damage are much more with less AC.

its all in your style i guess, when i play a monk i like not being touched

Raumoheru wrote:well i decided to pick up a monk again and do some testing to see what focus is best for monks, and i remember in NWN1 wisdom was the best for a fist monk because you needed wisdom to get +4 and +5 ki strikes.

however for NwN2, i tried a dex build for monk and although i dont have blazing aura, with weapon finesse i have the same AC yet more AB, so it seems worth it considering at 30, you can get 60+ AC so you need higher AB.

i should try out that mod you are talking about, because from what it seems the only real difference i can see from a strength build over a dex build is that you have less AC and more pure damage. having more AC as a monk seems much more logical to me, since the extra damage dealt can probably be made up in just one extra round of fighting, and the odds of taking damage are much more with less AC.

its all in your style i guess, when i play a monk i like not being touched

I think the real "kicker" for a Strength vs. a Dexterity build isn't the base attribute which adds a total of about +4 in a level 20 build to AC, rather it's the +4 AC PLUS the Dexterity Modifier (belt) for another +4 to AC. +4 AC is so, so. +8 AC on the other hand *can* be significant. (..the Strength build will almost certainly use the Strength belt.)

SOZ "evens" this out with the ability to wear Strength, Dexterity, and hand damage modification all at the same time.

I've now finished the OC with the Grey Orc build.

Once you hit Greater Flurry at class level 11, it's pretty much all over for *seemingly* competitive builds in the OC. The Strength Monk DOMINATES. :mischief:

The combination of an an increasing damage structure for your Unarmed Attack + the addition of Strength modifier damage equals very high damage per round with criticals. (..and Improved Critical Unarmed Strike should DEFINITELY be taken, OR should be achieved via the Ring of Might.)

Not only that, but this character ALSO had a higher AC than full-plate equiped fighters (at later levels) with identical armor enchantment, deflection bonuses, and using a Tower Shield with a modest shield enhancement. (..the Monk had *most* of the bonuses, including +5 Boots of Sun Soul and +8 peripat of Wisdom, but no additional Dexterity modifiers beyond the Boots of the Sun Soul.)

The most critical single enchantment was the addition of "Fortified Armor", or rather immunity to criticals and sneak attack damage. It was a fair bit more important than the improvement to AC.

If any one is interested in another melee build for the OC, then they can't go wrong with such a build.

Is Sacred Fist from one of the expansions?