“Have you ever heard of summon stacking?”
Yes, it is mentioned in his guide.
“Obviously a Staff of Teleport is nowhere near as practical, and certainly unsuitable for PvP, not to mention that you sacrifice an item slot (at the very least the equivalent of Enigma).”
There is a secondary weapon slot. It’s only a “w” away, and you can set your skills to different things depending on what weapon you have out, so teleporting with a staff that has teleport charges is very easy in practice, I mean, you don’t even have to scroll through your skills, it’s just “w” right click and you’re there.
“And if you aren't summon stacking, you will be hit, be it from Gloams or pk'ers.”
I sort of thought that, but high level dim vision followed by standing around corners is very handy at stopping that sort of thing. Don’t knock it ‘till you’ve tried it.
Great guide. I agree with your choice of skills and your explanations. I always wonder about people who max Revive... it’s so pointless.
I didn’t put points in corpse explosion on my first summoner, preferring skeletal mages. However, even at max level with good +skills, mages die too quickly, and it gets to be a huge pain weeding out the ineffective poison and annoying cold ones, since the fire and lightning that remain die right away anyway. I started putting points in clay golem because I didn’t have anything else to put them in. Your guide makes me want to rebuild and try corpse explosion instead.
Anyway, a great guide, very complete and easy to understand.
Necromancer Summoner build - Criticism Thread
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]“Have you ever heard of summon stacking?”
Yes, it is mentioned in his guide.[/QUOTE]
Where, I must have missed it (or perhaps it came in the new version)?
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]There is a secondary weapon slot. It’s only a “w” away, and you can set your skills to different things depending on what weapon you have out, so teleporting with a staff that has teleport charges is very easy in practice, I mean, you don’t even have to scroll through your skills, it’s just “w” right click and you’re there.[/QUOTE]
So you lose Beast, CtA, secondary skill weapon or someother valuable secondary weapon. Plus, why would you need to scroll, just hotkey it. By practical I meant it costs a fortune to maintain and can run out randomly and probably would need a repair after teleporting to baal.
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]I sort of thought that, but high level dim vision followed by standing around corners is very handy at stopping that sort of thing. Don’t knock it ‘till you’ve tried it.[/QUOTE]
I have tried it and found it redundant. I've currently restarted playing on a private server (less lag and annoying people) where the only summonmancer on the realm (lvl 91, also the highest level) uses no curse except Amp, I even have to decrep for him! He practically never dies despite not have access to any decent runewords (beyond Wealth).
Yes, it is mentioned in his guide.[/QUOTE]
Where, I must have missed it (or perhaps it came in the new version)?
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]There is a secondary weapon slot. It’s only a “w” away, and you can set your skills to different things depending on what weapon you have out, so teleporting with a staff that has teleport charges is very easy in practice, I mean, you don’t even have to scroll through your skills, it’s just “w” right click and you’re there.[/QUOTE]
So you lose Beast, CtA, secondary skill weapon or someother valuable secondary weapon. Plus, why would you need to scroll, just hotkey it. By practical I meant it costs a fortune to maintain and can run out randomly and probably would need a repair after teleporting to baal.
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]I sort of thought that, but high level dim vision followed by standing around corners is very handy at stopping that sort of thing. Don’t knock it ‘till you’ve tried it.[/QUOTE]
I have tried it and found it redundant. I've currently restarted playing on a private server (less lag and annoying people) where the only summonmancer on the realm (lvl 91, also the highest level) uses no curse except Amp, I even have to decrep for him! He practically never dies despite not have access to any decent runewords (beyond Wealth).
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noober
"So you lose Beast, CtA, secondary skill weapon or someother valuable secondary weapon."
Woah, hold up. This is a guide for the average player. He suggested teleport charges because they are way, way easier to find (and have a much lower level requirement) than Beast and CtA (and other alternate ways of teleporting). And you're sort of right, because I wasn't looking at this as a means of replacing Beast and CtA, but as a means of teleporting that most people could find and use easily. If you have CtA, go ahead and use it, if you must, but it probably won't be the deciding factor in a PvM battle.
As in aside, player preference. My Summoner is level 87, and I have Amp, Attract, revive, and Skel Magi hotkeyed. I don't use the hotkeys, however, I just scroll through with the mouse. My clay golem has 15 actual points in him, and with the synergy from Golem mastery and + skills, I rarely need to summon him, so, no hotkey. Same idea with skeletons. Fighting Ancients and Baal, in hell, straight through both, I didn't have a single skeleton die. A ton of magi and revives died, but no skeletons. So, no hotkey there, either. Since my clay golem slows bosses by 75%, I don't use Decrepify ever, and that's how I like to play. I don't have a single point in the Poison/Bone tree, either.
Quote continued:
By practical I meant it costs a fortune to maintain and can run out randomly and probably would need a repair after teleporting to baal.
True, but always having a tome of town portal helps, and it only costs gold to repair. Gold is everywhere (especially in items you sell)! CtA costs a hell of a lot more than some gold, and a lot more than an occasional trip to town if you forget to repair before you head out on a Baal run (or if you are very unlucky and end up teleporting all over in search of the throne room). I have never had a problem with gold on a necromancer once he gets past normal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekasrof
I sort of thought that, but high level dim vision followed by standing around corners is very handy at stopping that sort of thing. Don’t knock it ‘till you’ve tried it.
The response:
"I have tried it and found it redundant."
Yes, after some more play testing, I prefer to use only Attract and Amp. I liked Dim Vision in Normal (for stopping things from running away) and Nightmare (for not getting shot), but in Hell, Amp is much faster/better, espesially when combined with the occasional Attract to control where things are shooting. Also, I prefer Amp because I have a Might Merc, and I like to make sure the damage bonus is fully appreciated.
And really, if you need CtA or Beast in order to survive in PvM, you are doing something wrong.
Originally Posted by Noober
"So you lose Beast, CtA, secondary skill weapon or someother valuable secondary weapon."
Woah, hold up. This is a guide for the average player. He suggested teleport charges because they are way, way easier to find (and have a much lower level requirement) than Beast and CtA (and other alternate ways of teleporting). And you're sort of right, because I wasn't looking at this as a means of replacing Beast and CtA, but as a means of teleporting that most people could find and use easily. If you have CtA, go ahead and use it, if you must, but it probably won't be the deciding factor in a PvM battle.
As in aside, player preference. My Summoner is level 87, and I have Amp, Attract, revive, and Skel Magi hotkeyed. I don't use the hotkeys, however, I just scroll through with the mouse. My clay golem has 15 actual points in him, and with the synergy from Golem mastery and + skills, I rarely need to summon him, so, no hotkey. Same idea with skeletons. Fighting Ancients and Baal, in hell, straight through both, I didn't have a single skeleton die. A ton of magi and revives died, but no skeletons. So, no hotkey there, either. Since my clay golem slows bosses by 75%, I don't use Decrepify ever, and that's how I like to play. I don't have a single point in the Poison/Bone tree, either.
Quote continued:
By practical I meant it costs a fortune to maintain and can run out randomly and probably would need a repair after teleporting to baal.
True, but always having a tome of town portal helps, and it only costs gold to repair. Gold is everywhere (especially in items you sell)! CtA costs a hell of a lot more than some gold, and a lot more than an occasional trip to town if you forget to repair before you head out on a Baal run (or if you are very unlucky and end up teleporting all over in search of the throne room). I have never had a problem with gold on a necromancer once he gets past normal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekasrof
I sort of thought that, but high level dim vision followed by standing around corners is very handy at stopping that sort of thing. Don’t knock it ‘till you’ve tried it.
The response:
"I have tried it and found it redundant."
Yes, after some more play testing, I prefer to use only Attract and Amp. I liked Dim Vision in Normal (for stopping things from running away) and Nightmare (for not getting shot), but in Hell, Amp is much faster/better, espesially when combined with the occasional Attract to control where things are shooting. Also, I prefer Amp because I have a Might Merc, and I like to make sure the damage bonus is fully appreciated.
And really, if you need CtA or Beast in order to survive in PvM, you are doing something wrong.
Why
Why is this thread still being debated on. It's a good build i followed it...for the most part and it is still very good. My guy just uses Amplify and skeletons plus clay golem and he rules all the mosters while wearing full Trang. I say this thread and the items listed are good enough and you should stop debating why this build and the equipment selection is so horriable.
Why is this thread still being debated on. It's a good build i followed it...for the most part and it is still very good. My guy just uses Amplify and skeletons plus clay golem and he rules all the mosters while wearing full Trang. I say this thread and the items listed are good enough and you should stop debating why this build and the equipment selection is so horriable.
@Piff: I think it's debated still because in Diablo, like in many other areas of life, people have a lot of different opinions 
Opinions can differ due to personal taste, playing style, whether you play in a party or solo, whether you play PvP or PvM, and many other factors.
Personally, I don't mind people discussing builds and questioning skill-selection and equipment choices since such discussing can often be informative and helpful to players who are new to the game, or to this particular build. Discussions must be civil and to the point though, and critisism must contain valid arguments for your opinions.
Opinions can differ due to personal taste, playing style, whether you play in a party or solo, whether you play PvP or PvM, and many other factors. Personally, I don't mind people discussing builds and questioning skill-selection and equipment choices since such discussing can often be informative and helpful to players who are new to the game, or to this particular build. Discussions must be civil and to the point though, and critisism must contain valid arguments for your opinions.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]Woah, hold up. This is a guide for the average player. He suggested teleport charges because they are way, way easier to find (and have a much lower level requirement) than Beast and CtA (and other alternate ways of teleporting). And you're sort of right, because I wasn't looking at this as a means of replacing Beast and CtA, but as a means of teleporting that most people could find and use easily. If you have CtA, go ahead and use it, if you must, but it probably won't be the deciding factor in a PvM battle.[/QUOTE]
Its not just the ability to get through an area that matter but also the speed, which is why things like Pindle and Meph MF'ing are favored over Baal runs. Speed matters in all cases, be it rushing someone before your patience runs out or simply efficient MFing. Beast/CtA was just an example, Oath or Mf gear are other important considerations.
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]True, but always having a tome of town portal helps, and it only costs gold to repair. Gold is everywhere (especially in items you sell)![/QUOTE]
Gold = time. Lost or wasted time =/= good. Not to mention that I would rather spend that time and money gambling a nice item off Anya or buying a nice +6 claw then repairing my items.
[QUOTE=Piff]Why is this thread still being debated on. It's a good build i followed it...for the most part and it is still very good. My guy just uses Amplify and skeletons plus clay golem and he rules all the mosters while wearing full Trang. I say this thread and the items listed are good enough and you should stop debating why this build and the equipment selection is so horriable.[/QUOTE]
I can solo Hell naked using my summonmancer, does that mean that I should never look to improve anything?
Its not just the ability to get through an area that matter but also the speed, which is why things like Pindle and Meph MF'ing are favored over Baal runs. Speed matters in all cases, be it rushing someone before your patience runs out or simply efficient MFing. Beast/CtA was just an example, Oath or Mf gear are other important considerations.
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]True, but always having a tome of town portal helps, and it only costs gold to repair. Gold is everywhere (especially in items you sell)![/QUOTE]
Gold = time. Lost or wasted time =/= good. Not to mention that I would rather spend that time and money gambling a nice item off Anya or buying a nice +6 claw then repairing my items.
[QUOTE=Piff]Why is this thread still being debated on. It's a good build i followed it...for the most part and it is still very good. My guy just uses Amplify and skeletons plus clay golem and he rules all the mosters while wearing full Trang. I say this thread and the items listed are good enough and you should stop debating why this build and the equipment selection is so horriable.[/QUOTE]
I can solo Hell naked using my summonmancer, does that mean that I should never look to improve anything?
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
Noober - please attribute your quotes to the right person.
You said:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekasrof
Why is this thread still being debated on. It's a good build i followed it...for the most part and it is still very good. My guy just uses Amplify and skeletons plus clay golem and he rules all the mosters while wearing full Trang. I say this thread and the items listed are good enough and you should stop debating why this build and the equipment selection is so horriable."
Okay... I did NOT say that. If you look closely, you will see that "Piff" brought that up.
Pay more attention in the future.
To Piff I say: The thread title is "Necromancer Summoner build - Criticism Thread" When I read the title and thread, I was under the impression that this is the criticism thread they had talked about making. Of course, I didn't look for the original.
Anyway, I can think of four types of gear.
1. Survival gear = Often low-level, easy to obtain, but effective items. These are essential to basic survival and being able to play the game effectively.
2. Rushing gear = Gear that allows you to slay monsters very quickly and travel from area to area quickly, through teleport or fast run/walk.
3. Magic Find Gear = Gear that has Magic Find on it. Basically, whatever you wear when trying to win the lottery.
4. Dueling gear = Encompasses anything that is useful in PVP. A ton of variety here, because it will depend on your character's strengths/weaknesses, and the strengths/weaknesses of your opponents. Highly situational gear falls into this catergory.
Those are the basic types. An item can share attributes between the four types.
It might help if we mentioned what type of gear we're talking about. I think that's where the debate is at now. We're talking about different items that you wear when you have different goals.
I love to gamble, and I am happy that you would rather gamble then repair items. So many people ignore the gambling function in the game entirely.
You said:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Nekasrof
Why is this thread still being debated on. It's a good build i followed it...for the most part and it is still very good. My guy just uses Amplify and skeletons plus clay golem and he rules all the mosters while wearing full Trang. I say this thread and the items listed are good enough and you should stop debating why this build and the equipment selection is so horriable."
Okay... I did NOT say that. If you look closely, you will see that "Piff" brought that up.
Pay more attention in the future.
To Piff I say: The thread title is "Necromancer Summoner build - Criticism Thread" When I read the title and thread, I was under the impression that this is the criticism thread they had talked about making. Of course, I didn't look for the original.
Anyway, I can think of four types of gear.
1. Survival gear = Often low-level, easy to obtain, but effective items. These are essential to basic survival and being able to play the game effectively.
2. Rushing gear = Gear that allows you to slay monsters very quickly and travel from area to area quickly, through teleport or fast run/walk.
3. Magic Find Gear = Gear that has Magic Find on it. Basically, whatever you wear when trying to win the lottery.
4. Dueling gear = Encompasses anything that is useful in PVP. A ton of variety here, because it will depend on your character's strengths/weaknesses, and the strengths/weaknesses of your opponents. Highly situational gear falls into this catergory.
Those are the basic types. An item can share attributes between the four types.
It might help if we mentioned what type of gear we're talking about. I think that's where the debate is at now. We're talking about different items that you wear when you have different goals.
I love to gamble, and I am happy that you would rather gamble then repair items. So many people ignore the gambling function in the game entirely.
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]Noober - please attribute your quotes to the right person.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry that was a transcription error resulting from liberal use of copy + paste functions.
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]It might help if we mentioned what type of gear we're talking about. I think that's where the debate is at now. We're talking about different items that you wear when you have different goals.[/QUOTE]
The type of gear is irrelevant. It is simply a matter of versatility and efficiency. For example when MF'ing with a sorc, have Eschuta's/Spirit on switch decreases the amount of time getting there (faster FCR and more damage then the normal Occy/Gull+Shield). There are certainly more type of equipment then the four categories you listed, for example prebuff gear and resistance/absorb gear.
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]I love to gamble, and I am happy that you would rather gamble then repair items. So many people ignore the gambling function in the game entirely.[/QUOTE]
Ever since I got a Highlord's Wrath when I was gambling for crafting items I've been addicted.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry that was a transcription error resulting from liberal use of copy + paste functions.
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]It might help if we mentioned what type of gear we're talking about. I think that's where the debate is at now. We're talking about different items that you wear when you have different goals.[/QUOTE]
The type of gear is irrelevant. It is simply a matter of versatility and efficiency. For example when MF'ing with a sorc, have Eschuta's/Spirit on switch decreases the amount of time getting there (faster FCR and more damage then the normal Occy/Gull+Shield). There are certainly more type of equipment then the four categories you listed, for example prebuff gear and resistance/absorb gear.
[QUOTE=Nekasrof]I love to gamble, and I am happy that you would rather gamble then repair items. So many people ignore the gambling function in the game entirely.[/QUOTE]
Ever since I got a Highlord's Wrath when I was gambling for crafting items I've been addicted.
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
hmmm... I am not sure what you mean by "prebuff gear," so please explain.
As for resistance/absorb gear, I think those fit equally well in two catergories, Survival gear and Dueling gear.
The four catergories were meant as broad catch-alls, and I think every magical ability in the game fits into one or more of those catergories.
Back to resist/absorb items. The reason you wear resist/absorb gear (the reason the abilities resist and absorb even exists in the game) is to prevent lose of health, plain and simple. If the item prevents damage, it is preventing either monsters or players from killing you. Therefore, resist/absorb items fall into the Survival catergory and the Dueling catergory.
Of course, the more versatile an item is, the better it is, the more valuable it is etc etc. But very few items/item combinations excel in every catergory. The ones that do are called "Godly."
As for resistance/absorb gear, I think those fit equally well in two catergories, Survival gear and Dueling gear.
The four catergories were meant as broad catch-alls, and I think every magical ability in the game fits into one or more of those catergories.
Back to resist/absorb items. The reason you wear resist/absorb gear (the reason the abilities resist and absorb even exists in the game) is to prevent lose of health, plain and simple. If the item prevents damage, it is preventing either monsters or players from killing you. Therefore, resist/absorb items fall into the Survival catergory and the Dueling catergory.
Of course, the more versatile an item is, the better it is, the more valuable it is etc etc. But very few items/item combinations excel in every catergory. The ones that do are called "Godly."
This is off-topic but...
Prebuff gear is items used prior to battle to improve your abilities, e.g. Lightning Grand Charms used to boost your Energy Shield level, then swapped out for Cold GC's or something. Another example would be +fire skills equipment used just to boost your Enchant level, then swapped out for battle equipment.
On a second note most 'godly' equip is strictly expensive (and thus invariably either collectors items, or PvP equipment). Tyreal's Might (rarest unique) for example (which also doesn't fit in any of your categories) is absolutely useless, but godly.
Prebuff gear is items used prior to battle to improve your abilities, e.g. Lightning Grand Charms used to boost your Energy Shield level, then swapped out for Cold GC's or something. Another example would be +fire skills equipment used just to boost your Enchant level, then swapped out for battle equipment.
On a second note most 'godly' equip is strictly expensive (and thus invariably either collectors items, or PvP equipment). Tyreal's Might (rarest unique) for example (which also doesn't fit in any of your categories) is absolutely useless, but godly.
"Heya! Have you been to Baldur's Gate? I've been to Baldur's Gate... Oops, stepped into something. Have you stepped into something?"
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moltovir
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Tyrael's Might falls in another category: fashion equipment. If my barb could choose between duress, stone, ... or Tyrael's, he'd pick the Tyraels, just to have that supercool blue look Other equipment in this category: Templar's Might / Leviathan when combined with Vampire Gaze, Corpsemourn + a scythe class weapon + Natalya's helm, ...
Other equipment in this category: Templar's Might / Leviathan when combined with Vampire Gaze, Corpsemourn + a scythe class weapon + Natalya's helm, ..."We are at a very serious moment dealing with very serious issues and we are not focusing on the name you give to potatoes" - Nathalie Loisau