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I agree with that

The whole D1 style of anything goes doesn't slide with me.
Why have classes if you are going to do that.
Imagine if a barbarian could freeze a whole mob then whirlwind them.

There should be a conscious decision to take all the pros and cons of a class when you choose it. Also one of the most compelling elements of D2 was that you could choose a another class and get a whole different playing experience.

I mean one of the most exciting and frustrating points is that you could get a great drop but 9 out of 10 times it wouldn't be for your class. So after the initial disapointment of bum drop you would Tp out sell your junk and do the run again or continue through with more hunger than before. This could go on for ages and by the time you finally got something good (which sometimes came from the strangest places) the level of joy experienced would be worth it all.

A broad spectrum suedo class would weaken the fabric of the diablo experience. There is a good reason that unlike thousands of other games Diablo 2 is still selling in stores years after it should have faded into obscurity under the weight of progress. it had hooks in all the right places, change those and its just another inffective and disapointing fishing lure sold on an infomercial and endorsed by a celebrity(blizzard).

I think for D3 Blizzard needs to "look around" and see what is working for other industry RPG games.

If you want to see how you can cross over 2 classes successfully to build a character all you need do is look at TQ....

If you want to see how to make character generation have an insane amount of choice then look at NWN...

Personally the list could go on however I think it might be time to develop a character building system that is instead of gender limiting or class limiting or race limiting a system that is very open.

What I am meaning is have a very large pool of skills/spells that characters can chose from when ever they level up. Maybe something where as to meet certain requirements for each spell or skill you need to have say 50 intelligence to be able to chose the Lightning spell tree or 50 strength to chose the 2 weapon skill tree or 50 dexterity to be able to chose the Rapid shot tree etc.

Each spell/skill should be upgradeable depending on one of 2 factors maybe an attribute requirement and/or level requirement (not class/race/gender req.).

You would have skill points along with attribute points at each level still but ultimately an open type of character that may be e.g. skilled in the bow but also cast a limited range of spells and handy with the dagger. A level cap would still be required in this sense but I would imagine you could go pretty high.

Another idea would be to have maybe the skills/spells written on ancient learning scrolls or the like so basically you actually have to kill creatures (potentially with simple weaponry or limited combat ability at first) before you get the opportunity to find a drop that gives you that skill/spell to learn? Obviously these skills/spells would enable people to learn and level

Then you may find people trading ancient scrolls with skills/spells also.

Gender could possibly be chosen at the start or race could be chosen at the start - maybe give a little bit of variation in base attributes dependent on race and gender but no limitation on what skills/spells gender or race type can learn.

All and all it would make for a much more open character type.

Thats my thoughts anyways.

Character insurance

I mean insurance by making sure that my character will be available until I delete it. I lost 2 characters in D2 1 was a lvl 49 paly and the other was a lvl 29 barb. That just ticked me off and i stopped playing for a year and lost all my item storage characters (which I didn't care about accept for the fact they were holding most of my set items). Blizzard needs to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Characters and Losses

I know what you mean I lost a few characters as well, but my main problem with D2 is that after you be normal and nightmare what point is there in playing, I have a level 71 soceress on hell and really since the game is the same just harder what is the point? On D3 i would like to see the storyline change between normal, nightmare and hell.

TalonKarrde wrote:I know what you mean I lost a few characters as well, but my main problem with D2 is that after you be normal and nightmare what point is there in playing, I have a level 71 soceress on hell and really since the game is the same just harder what is the point? On D3 i would like to see the storyline change between normal, nightmare and hell.

There isn't much of one other than the challenge of harder enemies and bosses. But some people find this fun nonetheless.

Either way, we should get back on topic guys. This is about Diablo 3 character creations, a comparison to diablo 2 is fine, but ranting about why you hate diablo 2's character system and gameplay is completely off topic.

Anyone considered class quests?

I would like to see special class quest, as it was in Diablo 2, most of the classes found a place where they would somehow be respected. (Barbarian returns to harrogath, Amazon amongst the rogues, paladin in kurast, you know the drill). These quests would somehow give the character some sort of advantage, like a new skill or some Item. maybe these quests will be triggered at a certain level and you will be redirected to a place where you possibly would have been before. Let's say that you are a Barbarian, and when you turn level 30, whoever it might be, will redirect you to a certain act city (if there will be one area/act) where you will aquire a quest, either with an objective in a special otherwise unaccsessable place in that "act" or somewhere in the usual area you are in when you turn lvl 30.

@Insideout

I think they are doing something like that, which is pretty cool.

But...wouldn't paladins be better suited to Lut Gholein, considering Fara, Greiz, all the mercenaries, Jheryn, and Atma are all paladins?

I think a lot of post so far have tried to connect D2 with the elder scrolls. The unique system of the diablo series is what sets it apart from others. While cross-classes would be cool, it would just open the door for an uber-kill-everything class that would be used by 1/2 the player community. The current system allows for a balance. While certain combinations of characters in online play are still kick-butt, it encourages cooperation, which is a main goal of the Blizzard games team. The ability to do something over and over again and still have fun is another goal which is encouraged by the fixed class system. For example: Paladin with Thorns + Necro with skeletons/summons makes for an awesome team that is proven to work. This stimulates the idea of 2 friends getting on to have some fun and maybe getting some other people that will add to the strength of their team.

Dekard Cain

Dead Dekard Cain, one that shuts his mouth.
He talks way too much.

@kipi: The current synergy system (i.e. post 1.10) in most cases does not punish players for selecting earlier skills, indeed it often forces them to selected lower-tier skills.

@Siberys: how is D1's character system better than D2? From all the evidence I have seen, there is far more variety to D2 than D1.

@Caden: You have not thought through your point, a paladin/barb should always have far more defence than a Sorc due to Shout/HS (and defiance/iron skin). Your other skills idea is already implemented to an extent with items such as Chaos and Passion.

@Deadalready: while there are certainly too many useless skills in D2, your example is a pretty poor one. I will acknowledge the only case Icebolt will be superior to Blast is probably in a ES/orb build. Blast however, is completely different to Glacial. Glacial is used only for freezing large groups, while Blast is used for killing. In PvP, glacial is used mostly to freeze large masses summon stacked minions, while Blast is used for mostly for telestomping and defensive spamming. With respect to Firebolt vs Ball, at very high level (around 50) bolt does more damage than Ball. Furthermore, both frost and fire bolt require far less mana than ball/blast. From memory there are also differences in speed.

@Loot_Junkie: I disagree completely that D2's longevity is due in any significant way to the random map generation. The fact that maphacks are so hugely popular certainly does not support your view.

@Vidar: I didn't bother playing Titan Quest but judging by the fact it is dead and widely panned I doubt it was particularly good, and D2 has far more real character options than NWN. With respect to tying stats to skills, that is already effectively done in D2 as say, to use a good bow, you need a large amount of DEX etc.

@TalonKarrde: Play PvP.

@Salidin54: Thorns + summons is far inferior to Fanat + summons.

@Siberys: how is D1's character system better than D2? From all the evidence I have seen, there is far more variety to D2 than D1.

Your characters can eventually obtain most if not all skills available through purchasing them. D2 has more variety yes, but a sorceress cannot get bash no matter how basic and easily learn-able the skill is (Unless it's through an item that is, and those are extremely hard to find).

characters

i suggest a character custimization process like dungeon lords. you pick the race you want and it has certian stats different from the others. say a dwarf would have tons of dex and str and a barb would have tons of str and vit. then if you had male and female classes you could have the males and females of the same class with different stats. giving the character custimization process a new meaning. i also thing that you should be able to custimize your armor. i would love to have a barb in d2 with blood stained armor with a few skulls fastened at the shoulders rather than a brown and grey armor with shoulder bumps. i also suggest an involved merc. they need more options. a skill tree just like a players. you could also have the skill set up like those on WoW. you pick a race then you get a skill tree according to what kind of character you want. this is also used in the game dungeon lords i mentioned earlier. i also think there needs to be more than just humans trying to kill evil. you need elves and other figments of our imaginations. i would love to have an elf and a werewolf join sides against evil. i agree with "sister spells". 1 game that i know of that uses this is pokemon saph/rby and above. it works very well and makes the game a little interesting. the lower lvl skill need to be implemented better, more like WoW. to where you get a skill at lvl 1 and its still possible to use it, at what ever the max is going to be, and still be effective.

you pick the race you want and it has certian stats different from the others.

Except the diablo universe doesn't include any other race than Human. Demons and Angels aren't particularly a race so much as literal representations of good and evil, and humans are the balance.

you could also have the skill set up like those on WoW.

Wait wait, you JUST got done complaining that diablo 3 was too much like world of warcraft graphically, but now you want to add world of warcraft gameplay functions to the game?

my opinion

Siberys wrote:Except the diablo universe doesn't include any other race than Human. Demons and Angels aren't particularly a race so much as literal representations of good and evil, and humans are the balance.



Wait wait, you JUST got done complaining that diablo 3 was too much like world of warcraft graphically, but now you want to add world of warcraft gameplay functions to the game?

i know that d2 and d1 the characters were always human and i hope they stay that way. i was just using that as an example. i also know i dislike wow graphics because i think they are cheesy. i do like the game play functions. the only other game i know of where you can get a low lvl skill and still have it worth something is dungeon lords, and maybe pokemon. neither of which people are familiar with/want to acknowledge, so i used wow. if you play d2 and d1 for a few years then go to wow then look at the previews on the d3 site you will see the what i mean when i say d3 looks like wow. i think all video games are getting sucked into this freakin anime style graphics. i would prefer doom95 graphics anyday over something that looks like it would belong on an anime anything. i just think a game where you mow down waves of monsters should look rough around the edges not smooth like a (insert what ever you like).

what is the statbuild of warlock?

quoted by Noober "I didn't bother playing Titan Quest but judging by the fact it is dead and widely panned I doubt it was particularly good, and D2 has far more real character options than NWN. With respect to tying stats to skills, that is already effectively done in D2 as say, to use a good bow, you need a large amount of DEX etc."

In response:

"I didn't bother playing TQ..." equals no grounds for judgement since you haven't played it so nothing gained from your comment there.

"D2 has far more character options than NWN" laughable sorry...you are comparing a limited action rpg to a game that draws from the near unlimited resource of DnD...so ultimately nothing gained from that comment either...

"With respect to tying stats to skills, that is effectively done in D2 as say..." well no it isn't. What I am referring to is a large pool of skills that every character can draw from...not just Barb skills for a Barbarian characters etc and I am referring to stat points contributing to the availability of skills...not just the use of items e.g. bows etc....what I wanted to see is stat point allocation contributing the skill build of each character and not just towards the direct benefit of being able to use certain items in game...

And also if you are going to make a post that "tries" to shoot down everyone's comments at least try and offer a solution that is on topic...otherwise keep your opinions to yourself.

One thing that bugged the hell out of me is the skill trees.

Diablo 2's skill trees were amazing! I look at the d3 skill trees and I check the website out to make sure I'm not reading about WoW. All the skills look like they are ripped and slightly changed from WoW, which depresses me. They may be made by the same company but those are two games I want to stay as far apart as possible. WoW may be good, D2 may be good, but if you mix two good things it doesn't make it good. If you want an example, just look to food.

From what I've seen, classes can be both sexes. But I totally agree that some classes, like amazon and sorceress would have to stay with only one sex, if they changed it then they are becoming conformists, trying to make everyone feel equal and breaking the lore and essence of the diablo series.

I think more classes would be cool, but not too many more. Original d2 started with 5 and went to 7, I think starting with 7 or 8 would be cool and maybe adding 1 or 2 in a later expansion(which they will undoubtably have, this is blizzard we are talking about).

Items should be kept mostly the same, obviously the gameplay will be a tiny bit different so items would change accordingly, but mostly should be kept the same.

I guess what I'm worried about most is that they will WoW-ify this. Once again, WoW is a good game, but Diablo is NOT WoW. There should not be races, I can't see a single reason why that would help Diablo. Sexes are acceptable, but again, to an extent. Skill trees are my biggest worry, if they keep the essence of Diablo 2 and change it enough that it is original that is good.

Is anyone else worried about skills and skill trees?

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Okay, got to add something else because i read something that almost made me fall out of my seat.

Diablo 1 is better than Diablo 2? Are you confused? Did you mistake 1 for 2? Have you never played Diablo 2? Diablo 1 is JUNK compared to D2, D2 is SO better than D1 in just about every way that even comparing the 2, excepting that they have the same name, is LAUGHABLE. D1 is good, D2 is GREAT, it's hard to post this without insulting you, because of how much I disagree.

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One of the reasons Diablo 2 was great is because every class was totally different from other classes. If you can play the entire game in one go through and see everything there is to see then it is BORING! I understand customization and such, but that isn't Diablo(at least it isn't now).

One thing I agree with though, deleting characters every few months because we haven't played sucks, as much as I like building my character up from low lvls, I dislike losing something I've worked on for a while.

But seriously, while I understand people can have differences of opinion, I feel tempted check the date you guys posted and check what day opposite day is on. Diablo 1 being better than Diablo 2? HA. HA. HA. HA. Wowwwwwww...

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In D2, they added something called Synergy, this was awesome! Being able to buff spells by having other spells? Awesome! Now they just have +Dual Weapon Damage with blah skill, it really feels like it's becoming WoW. God, I will be so pissed off if they screw this up.

bushwhacker2k wrote:---

Okay, got to add something else because i read something that almost made me fall out of my seat.

Diablo 1 is better than Diablo 2? Are you confused? Did you mistake 1 for 2? Have you never played Diablo 2? Diablo 1 is JUNK compared to D2, D2 is SO better than D1 in just about every way that even comparing the 2, excepting that they have the same name, is LAUGHABLE. D1 is good, D2 is GREAT, it's hard to post this without insulting you, because of how much I disagree.

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One of the reasons Diablo 2 was great is because every class was totally different from other classes. If you can play the entire game in one go through and see everything there is to see then it is BORING! I understand customization and such, but that isn't Diablo(at least it isn't now).

One thing I agree with though, deleting characters every few months because we haven't played sucks, as much as I like building my character up from low lvls, I dislike losing something I've worked on for a while.

But seriously, while I understand people can have differences of opinion, I feel tempted check the date you guys posted and check what day opposite day is on. Diablo 1 being better than Diablo 2? HA. HA. HA. HA. Wowwwwwww...

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Nearly clicked the report button after reading this. Yes, we can have different opinions, but making fun of the fact that somebody do like the older, original, version of Diablo games is not the way to go, especially here in GameBanshee. Do you do that also if I claim that I like older Fallouts more than the newest one?

So, as you claimed that we are totally wrong, then perhaps you are ready to tell us why, we are wrong and why D2 is better than D1? And the fact that D1 is older is not good enough.

One reason why I like D1 more is the fact that it was classless. I don't have anything against classes focusing only to certain skills and styles, but I like classless system or a system where each character can learn skills and spells from different classes more. Good examples of this: Fallout 1/2/3/Tactics, Demise - Rise of Ku'Tan, several MUDs, ADOM and Deus Ex.
Second reason why I like D1 more is that it has that original feeling, something which in my opinion wasn't so well achieved in D2. But that's matter of opinion really.

In D2, they added something called Synergy, this was awesome! Being able to buff spells by having other spells? Awesome! Now they just have +Dual Weapon Damage with blah skill, it really feels like it's becoming WoW. God, I will be so pissed off if they screw this up.

Yep, though that feature wasn't in the original D2 game, but brought by 1.10 patch for LoD expansion.

Wikipedia wrote: Patch 1.10 was released on October 23 2003. The main change was the introduction of "synergy" bonuses, whereby investing points into one skill would increase the power of a related skill. The difficulty of monsters was increased accordingly, making many previously viable builds almost useless in harder difficulty levels.

EDIT: Oh, and almost forgot...
I and Siberys have played both Diablos quite much, just to answer your question...

Okay, got to add something else because i read something that almost made me fall out of my seat.

Diablo 1 is better than Diablo 2? Are you confused? Did you mistake 1 for 2? Have you never played Diablo 2? Diablo 1 is JUNK compared to D2, D2 is SO better than D1 in just about every way that even comparing the 2, excepting that they have the same name, is LAUGHABLE. D1 is good, D2 is GREAT, it's hard to post this without insulting you, because of how much I disagree.

Does this imply that Elder Scrolls Arena was terrible and Oblivion was next to godliness? Fallout 1 was a joke and fallout 3 was the best? NWN 1 worthless with NWN 2 being king?

Diablo 2 and its expansion is indeed a wonderful and completely addicting game. There are so many options in the game it's not even funny. But options aren't what make a game great.

There are two things, to very key things that make Diablo a far better game. One is as already mentioned, classlessness. The mere fact that you can be a warrior with a high level fireball or a sorcerer with a big broad axe you swiped from the butcher is simply awesome. Now, Diablo 2 has this to some extent, but not to the extend D1 had. The sorceress may have been able to use a halberd or hammer if she wanted, but she only has two skills that really help with the use of that. Teleport and Enchant (3 if you count Static on bosses).

Two is the characters. Despite them being isometric blocks of pixels, I still got a sense of exactly what type of characters the townspeople are. Diablo 2, it's hard to have this mainly in Act 1, 3, 4, and Anya/Nihthilak in act 5. Kind of cookie cutter characters to be honest.

One of the reasons Diablo 2 was great is because every class was totally different from other classes. If you can play the entire game in one go through and see everything there is to see then it is BORING! I understand customization and such, but that isn't Diablo(at least it isn't now).

I'm sorry but you are flat out wrong. Customization in every aspect and angle is the very core of diablo games. It is what separated these games from Warcraft and Starcraft. Technically speaking, Diablo 2 has more customization than D1, but as said D1 has a one-up over D2 because of cross-classing.

In D2, they added something called Synergy, this was awesome! Being able to buff spells by having other spells? Awesome! Now they just have +Dual Weapon Damage with blah skill, it really feels like it's becoming WoW. God, I will be so pissed off if they screw this up.

Finally....one last technical bit. As said, Synergy came upon patch 1.10, some sixteen or seventeen patch versions later after the games initial release. If blizzard or any modder desired to, Synergy could be made just as possible in D1 and Hellfire. And it'd be a far more effective system to boot considering the classlessness.

I have to absolutely agree with Siberys on this one and even go one step further to say that customisation is the key to the essence of what makes a RPG game an RPG game. The Diablo games have always featured this as one of its strong points.

D1 vs D2 is an interesting question - if I had to make a judgement call D1 has a superior character customisation solution while D2 is very linear and dependant on what type of character you have picked to play.

I think Blizzard realised this a bit later on with the release of patches enabling rune words that allowed characters to use items that had other characters skills attached. e.g. Teleporting, auras etc.

D1 offered this level of customisation up front with pretty much every skill dependant on the characters ability points (e.g. magic so you could learn spells from books, dexterity so you could use some of the high end bows, strength for heavy armour and melee weapons) rather than limited by what character you chose at the start.

Like my post before I hope that D3 customisation is about a large pool of skills (I mean LARGE as in quite literally 10's if not 100's of skills with the ability of the Blizzard team adding more skills to the pool with upcoming patches) instead of a set tree. I think all characters should have access to most of these skills. Ability points and progression of these should be the variant between the character types.

A strong big character (Warrior type) should always have a general trend towards the melee type skills from the skill pool however there also needs to be the facility for someone to create something different. e.g. a sample character would be Torm the "relatively" strong warrior that can fight quite well with a bastard sword (skill points at low level picked in melee combat maybe) cast some quite effective range spells (picked a few spell skills and progressed them to an average to high level), shoot a bow quite well (picked some range attack skills and progressed to mid level) and can heal party members of minor or medium wounds (skills picked in healing from low to mid level) if they have to flee battle...

Makes for interesting dynamics and more creative character builds rather than the linear skill trees that D2 currently has.

Customisation is what keeps people coming back for more.