GameBanshee Forums

true enough. Thanks for all your help GawainBS

You're welcome. BTW, what will the class skills be?

4 + int modifier for skills at the moment.

Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Ride, Spot
currently, Not sure if concentration should be added for Summon Minion's benefit, or if I want the action to be interrupted if the player decides to summon in a location where he won't get a round worth of free time.

With Minion's influence in play (any form) the character has slightly more flexibility with where they can put their skill points.

I'd add Sense Motive, Concentrate & Spellcraft.
Concentration is more or less a given. Allowing the playing to get his main-class features get interrupted that easily is kind of a jerk-move, I think.

Also, by removing the spell-list, you have in fact made a class that allows you to play as a summon, and no longer a summoner. I'm not saying this is bad, but it's something to keep in mind. The spell-list does make the class quite a bit stronger, more on par with a Bard.

true again.

the class without the spells feels in game play like you're simply playing the monster with boosted stats.

something I need to consider.

proposed spells
instead of the ones mentioned in another post.
Feels more like something this class would have available over the others. I realize that i'd added mount as a class feature, but if i add spells back the mount ability would be removed.

0
detect poison
light

1
unseen servant
mount

2
protection from arrows
glitterdust
3
Sleet storm
Vampiric touch
4
Leomund's secure shelter
dismissal

5
mordenkainen's faithful hound
wall of stone

6
planar binding
greater heroism

I like this spell list. Some suggestions, though:
I'd replace Mount with Grease. If you need a mount, summon one.
How about swapping Protection from Arrows for Mirror Image and Vampiric Touch for Displacement? Those increase your survivability, which is quite important as a tank. Protection from Arrows becomes quite useless at a certain point (DR/Magic isn't useful once past lvl 6-7) and Vampiric Touch is too offensive, IMO. (Yes, you get HP, but still...)
I'd also replace Leomund's Secure Shelter with Solid Fog: another BFC spell, which increases your tankability.

In my opinion, this shifts the list more to tanking. Can you also please repeat how many spells you get per day? It wasn't quite clear before and I seem to be unable to find it again.

Its not following any other class progression.

The logic is every level you get 1more spell slot in your highest level.

when you reach 3 spells per day in that level, the next time you level up, you gain 1 spell per day of the next level of spells.

2 0 spells at level 1
3 0 spells at level 2
3 0 level 1 first level at 3


This continues to 20th level where you get 3 spells per day for every level of spell from 0 to 6.

Grease exchanged for mount? many of the monsters on the summon list aren't particularly suited to being a mount.. other than say a unicorn or griffon.

i'll check out mirror image, i may prefer blur for class perception reasons.

As before with the spell casting, the character can spend one of their general feats to pick a conjuration spell that doesn't summon a creature or deal damage from the wizard list. I was going for slightly general purpose list, if they wanted to specialize it then spend a feat to do so.

Upon more consideration, you're right, Vampiric touch doesn't fit at all.. there is no connection to any necromantic effects in the class.
i'll browse for something else.

From the top of my head, creatures that are summonable and usable as a mount: Roc & Triceratops.

The feat-for-spell option is nice, but terribly, terribly narrow: I wouldn't count on that to really expand the list. Some spells you selected are nice to fill that last unused slot when you're a Wizard, but really aren't that nice when they're your only option, since they're very specific in their use. (Secure Shelter, Faithful Hound, Unseen Servant.) Spells that help you survive and control the battlefield will see constant use with a D&D tanking class.

new spell list
I particularly like true strike, when combined with power attack.

0
detect poison
light

1
grease
true strike

2
web
glitterdust

3
Sleet storm
displacement

4
solid fog
dismissal

5
hold monster
wall of stone

6
wind walk
greater heroism

this is a much more useful list of spells. Can really limit the battlefield with wall of stone + fog + web.

The feat for spell idea will allow transmutation spells (no disintegrate) as well as conjuration spells that don't deal damage.

I like this spell-list. Very thematic and useful. And Glitterdust is powerful.
Not saying you should change it, but Truestrike is a waste: you first spend a round casting it, then you get one attack on which you can full-powerattack. Even with a weapon in two hands, that's only +30 damage for this class. Spending two rounds in another way, like full-attacking while flanking with your minion, will grant you more of a benefit.
I know I'll be spending my 6th lvl feat on Wraithstrike, especially if I still get to share spells with my Summon.

its a very situational spell, but in my mind an excellent combo for giants and other creatures with high hp and next to zero ac.

i think the bonus worth it in certain circumstances where there is a surprise round.

but i see your point, it is another situational spell, with little late game benefit.

i'll see what other spells would be suited, if i find something themed to the class i'll probably switch.

Ah here is a good one Detect chaos/good/evil/law

Magical sight inside of the fog effects, it may not be quick, but it grants spell based knowledge of the strength and location of all enemies of that alignment with fog effects, nice time to plink them with arrows.

Note for wraithstrike, it changes your attack to touch attacks, and touch attacks are considered a light weapon, means no power attack.

No, wrong, touch attacks are attacks that ignore Natural Armour, Armour, Shield and their respective Enhancement bonuses to AC. Wether or not they are light weapons, depends on the weapon used.
It's just that the most common touch attack, as the result of a spell, is made with a hand, which is a light weapon. Then again, you can always make Power Attacks with Natural Weapons and Unarmed Strikes.

however you can only make unarmed strikes work with power attack if the feat weapon finesse isn't being used.

what is odd is that in the weapon finesse feat description it says that all unarmed strikes are considered light weapon attack, which would imply that monks can't use power attack unarmed.

mizzrym wrote:however you can only make unarmed strikes work with power attack if the feat weapon finesse isn't being used.

what is odd is that in the weapon finesse feat description it says that all unarmed strikes are considered light weapon attack, which would imply that monks can't use power attack unarmed.

Weapon Finesse doesn't preclude Power Attack at all. It never says so. You can, for instance, Power Attack with a Rapier, or a Spiked Chain (and even get double Power Attack bonus from it). (Both are very clear, in fact, since the former is a onehanded weapon, and the latter a twohanded weapon.)
Power Attack, however, says it only can't be used with light weapons, with the exceptions of Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks.

i confess to not having read power attacks description there, but i had memorized that it couldn't be used with light weapons.


I went through the summons available to the class for good and evil summoners and the list is relatively even for abilities. What is unexpected is that the summons at first have low stats, then go to mid range then higher, then drop back to midrange at high levels for the summons.

meaning the bonuses from soul boost never get particularly large, total bonuses to str amount to about a +6 or so depending on the summon. With minion's focus that gets class based chance to hit to be 15 + 8 + d20 and misc things like weapon enhancement and other buffs.



damage rolls look like weapon + 8 (when flanking, minion's focus) + cha modifier, just from class benefits. quite significant over the length of an encounter.

one sad aspect is that this class has little benefit to keep leveling in at epic levels, might as well pick something else, as it scales well up to that point but the minion will fall behind. Only solution is to start crafting higher level summon spells, or add in an effect for level 20 where you can select any creature with HD of roughly half your level.

mizzrym wrote:one sad aspect is that this class has little benefit to keep leveling in at epic levels, might as well pick something else, as it scales well up to that point but the minion will fall behind. Only solution is to start crafting higher level summon spells, or add in an effect for level 20 where you can select any creature with HD of roughly half your level.

I would rather go for the Epic Summon Spell, but once at Epic levels, things fall apart, for every class. Don't bother too much with it.

I have to disagree that the numbers are "significant", though. I'd call them average at best. My players would consider it the minimum to pull your own weight in a party. Keep in mind that keeping an opponent flanked isn't always possible. However, it's quite possible for a player to further optimise the class and pull of better numbers, so I'd say the class is now at its sweet spot in terms of balance.

its not significant even with the added damage the minion could deal?
I mean it may not have the burst damage that a high level mage could pull but its still a threat.

I think it needs two last bits, the minion should get an additional +4 to str and con around level 12, and the minion to get fast healing based on 1/5 of the summoner's level picked up at level 10. makes the minion slightly more hardy, and less of a meat sack with hp for the summoner, through shield other.

Mages haven't got good burst damage. They're mediocre at damage at best, due to bad scaling of spelldamage compared to monster HP. They are so good because they disable the enemy.
Significant damage is like 300-400/round.
While I like your proposed abilities, they put yet more focus on the Minion...

indeed, but the master gains the additional strength the minion does.

whats left that i can think to do without adding more spells to the class or sneak attack (which really doesn't fit), is to have the summoner have the ability to leech health as needed from his minion, or gain bonuses whenever another conjured entity is dispelled/banished by him.

it'd be interesting to have a strike that deals normal damage, but adds to your minion's damage the next time they hit, or vice versa.