GameBanshee Forums

In Pen & Paper, Rogues & Fighter are jokes. Wizards, Clerics and Druids rule supreme. They literally make the other classes obsolete.
I know what you described is the ideal of D&D, but it doesn't work out that way in reality.
However, NWN2 is much more balanced.

GawainBS wrote:In Pen & Paper, Rogues & Fighter are jokes. Wizards, Clerics and Druids rule supreme. They literally make the other classes obsolete.
I know what you described is the ideal of D&D, but it doesn't work out that way in reality.

At what level?

Well, pretty much right from the start, but it gets ugly from levels 5 - 7. Past that, it skyrockets.

(I'll admit that the early levels are pretty ok, but spells like Sleep and Glitterdust are nasty and win encounters on their own. Not fun for the Fighter, Rogue, Paladin, etc. players...)

GawainBS wrote:Well, pretty much right from the start, but it gets ugly from levels 5 - 7. Past that, it skyrockets.

(I'll admit that the early levels are pretty ok, but spells like Sleep and Glitterdust are nasty and win encounters on their own. Not fun for the Fighter, Rogue, Paladin, etc. players...)

exactly......

rouges are good......but they should first be able to sneak up on the wizard...and even then any good build wizard can disable and take out any rouge once they attack.....when they reveal themselves....

for example...one sneak attack.....the wizard casts a silent daze spell...runs to safe distance...and then spams high level spells.....:mischief:

done it several times in the OC.....during a certain mission for the watch....if you know what i mean.....

hence even if they gang up...a wizard can and will effectively take em out.....

any char that can do damage at range...makes fighters and rouges obsolete....especially if they can disable em...thru certain spells etc.....

this of course includes other fighters and rouges who do good range damage as well.....

It's not so much the ranged damage that's the problem, it's the fact that casters get a lot more actions (Celerity, Timestop,...), can deny other's actions (control spells, like Wall of Force, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Sleet Fog,...), can predict the enemy and prepare accordingly (Divinations in general, things like Foresight, Divination, Scrying,...), can get excellent protections (Stoneskin, Displacement, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, immunities, ....) or have better mobility (Fly, Airwalk,...) Most Casters have several combinations of all those factors, and a lot of spells last hour/lvl, so can be cast at the start of the day and be up when combat starts. (And last throughout the night.) At the very high levels, using Gate to get a Solar to fight for you and Shapechanging in to one are also available.
Luckily, most of these aren't available in NWN, so it isn't so bad there. It's also easier in NWN to get Sneak Attacks off, since the rules for flanking/flatfooted are a lot more lenient.

In short: if you said "balance in NWN", I agree.

Diamonddrago wrote:exactly......

rouges are good......but they should first be able to sneak up on the wizard...and even then any good build wizard can disable and take out any rouge once they attack.....when they reveal themselves....

for example...one sneak attack.....the wizard casts a silent daze spell...runs to safe distance...and then spams high level spells.....:mischief:

Rogue
Level:

1. 1d6 1 attack + weapon damage (rapier) 1d6 + Strength modifier +1 = 7 average.
2. 1d6 1 attack ".."
3. 2d6 1 attack ".." = 10 average.
4. 2d6 1 attack ".."
5. 3d6 1 attack ".." = 13 average.
6. 3d6 1 attack ".."
7. 4d6 1 attack ".." = 16 average.
8. 4d6 2 attacks
9. 5d6 2 attacks
10. 5d6 2 attacks

Wizard
Level:

1. 1d4 hit dice + Constitution +1 = average of 3, but likely 5 because it's 1st level.
2. average 7.
3. average 9.
4. average 11.
5. average 13.
6. average 15.
7. average 17.
8. average 19.
9. average 21.


Notice any pattern?

Now NWN2's hit dice is screwed, there isn't a roll, rather it the full monty - all 4 points each level.


Basically what it comes down to for gaming is that *if* the Rogue gets in a Sneak Attack, then the Wizard *NEVER GETS A CHANCE TO DO ANYTHING*.

Worse,

It takes a full round to cast a spell "normally", AND the Wizard is subject to concentration checks, AND the Wizard creates an attack of opportunity by casting the spell, AND the Rogue has a high Initiative Value, AND the Wizard is unlikely to move to face the Rogue.

What this all means is that even if the Rogue doesn't kill the Wizard from the first attack, that it's *likely* they will from an attack of opportunity - which often is from a flanking position (..allowing for that attack to be a Sneak Attack).

I'd also add that it doesn't factor in Traps either.

GawainBS wrote:It's not so much the ranged damage that's the problem, it's the fact that casters get a lot more actions (Celerity, Timestop,...), can deny other's actions (control spells, like Wall of Force, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Sleet Fog,...), can predict the enemy and prepare accordingly (Divinations in general, things like Foresight, Divination, Scrying,...), can get excellent protections (Stoneskin, Displacement, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, immunities, ....) or have better mobility (Fly, Airwalk,...) Most Casters have several combinations of all those factors, and a lot of spells last hour/lvl, so can be cast at the start of the day and be up when combat starts. (And last throughout the night.) At the very high levels, using Gate to get a Solar to fight for you and Shapechanging in to one are also available.
Luckily, most of these aren't available in NWN, so it isn't so bad there. It's also easier in NWN to get Sneak Attacks off, since the rules for flanking/flatfooted are a lot more lenient.

In short: if you said "balance in NWN", I agree.

still even in NWN a rogue caught with his/her pants down tends to get cut down fast.....by any wizard class.....

and usually rouges have the short end of the stick equipment n bonus wise as well.....unless i am wrong?:mischief:

GawainBS wrote:It's not so much the ranged damage that's the problem, it's the fact that casters get a lot more actions (Celerity, Timestop,...), can deny other's actions (control spells, like Wall of Force, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Sleet Fog,...), can predict the enemy and prepare accordingly (Divinations in general, things like Foresight, Divination, Scrying,...), can get excellent protections (Stoneskin, Displacement, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, immunities, ....) or have better mobility (Fly, Airwalk,...)

Most Casters have several combinations of all those factors, and a lot of spells last hour/lvl, so can be cast at the start of the day and be up when combat starts. (And last throughout the night.) At the very high levels, using Gate to get a Solar to fight for you and Shapechanging in to one are also available.

I haven't looked at the spells for some time.. Decades actually. Spells that can detect and be virtually persistent - that's new to me. I always thought they were virtually all a minute a level.

Diamonddrago wrote:still even in NWN a rogue caught with his/her pants down tends to get cut down fast.....by any wizard class.....

and usually rouges have the short end of the stick equipment n bonus wise as well.....unless i am wrong?:mischief:

But that's inherent in the class - it's Stealth based. No Stealth and your chance of survival goes *way* down.

You can of course run around corners and go back into hiding. Or with NWN2 you can build your character to obtain HiPS relatively early.

It's the same for Wizards.. no preparation and your chance for survival goes *way* down.

It just takes more user skill to play these types of characters than Fighters.

Scottg wrote:I haven't looked at the spells for some time.. Decades actually. Spells that can detect and be virtually persistent - that's new to me. I always thought they were virtually all a minute a level.

nope i believe the warlocks n druid class have persistent/hourly spells that are equal to true seeing.....

not sure about the newer wizard classes like spirit shamans and favored souls....<_<....

but i know for a fact warlocks clean rogue clocks regardless...of the sneak attack....as they have access to better armor and chained attacks which take only one round to cast.....

Diamonddrago wrote:nope i believe the warlocks n druid class have persistent/hourly spells that are equal to true seeing.....

not sure about the newer wizard classes like spirit shamans and favored souls....<_<....

but i know for a fact warlocks clean rogue clocks regardless...of the sneak attack....as they have access to better armor and chained attacks which take only one round to cast.....

Again, outside of NWN2 I don't know the spells. Hourly spells were always a part of the system, but the number and types of spells were usually quite limited. Also the concept of "meta-magic" is relatively new.


Warlocks and Druids are *hyrbid* classes.

Basically they trade a little melee prowess for spells, and a little spell prowess for better melee ability. (..and in the case of a Warlock the "touch attack" IS it's melee ability.)

GawainBS wrote:
..I'll admit that the early levels are pretty ok, but spells like Sleep and Glitterdust are nasty and win encounters on their own. Not fun for the Fighter, Rogue, Paladin, etc. players...

Glitterdust:

Glitterdust :: d20srd.org

Only 1 round a level, and a 10 foot radius.

Sleep:

Sleep :: d20srd.org

1 min a level.. but only as long as they aren't damaged, and useless past level 4. Again, only a 10 foot radius. Useless on Elves.

If you spot opponents and make the first attack, both are good.

On the other hand you will still likely get "waxed" by a Rogue of equal or higher level who makes the first attack from hiding.

I'll admit that when you start into the 8th and 9th levels spells, a base Rogue is going to get annihilated by a base Wizard.. but that's kinda what you would expect, no? (..of course "base" is just that, the high level Rogue may well have five-finger "found" certain magical items that help "bridge" the disparity.)

Also note that even in NWN2, a well built Wizard (..with some cash for crafting), is pretty much the most powerful character from level 7 up (..provided it's played well).

Scottg wrote:Again, outside of NWN2 I don't know the spells. Hourly spells were always a part of the system, but the number and types of spells were usually quite limited. Also the concept of "meta-magic" is relatively new.


Warlocks and Druids are *hyrbid* classes.

Basically they trade a little melee prowess for spells, and a little spell prowess for better melee ability. (..and in the case of a Warlock the "touch attack" IS it's melee ability.)

i am talking about the classes within NWN......

for the warlocks i believe its a 24h spell called "see unseen" or something similar i forgot.....

and not to mention the warlocks high use magic device points...coupled with a few potions/spells like "fox's cunning"...really pushes the warlock class crafting to record highs even at lower levels.....

so warlocks are one wizard class.....tailor made to clean rogue clocks....and the other wizard classes have more creative ways to deal with em.....

so the balance you mentioned is shot.....NWN is as free-for-all as any D&D game.....the experience and ownage...its all in the Player's hands....

Glitterdust is an offensive spell: it wouldn't be used to deny the Rogue's stealth, but to take him out of the fight.
The point is that a Wizard (in P&P) will never be unprepared, with all his Divination spells and Contingencies. He will probably never even loose initiative. Even then: the prevelance of immunities to Sneak Attack ensures that the Rogue will be reduced to neglible damage. (Two easy to come by ways: Heart of XYZ Element spells, and the Fortification Armour enhancement, either put on Bracers or Twilight something armour.)
Lots of nifty spells are Swift Actions, so you can probably cast two spells a round.
Druids, well, Wildshaped Druid + Natural Spell + Animal Companion = near the pinnacle of melee. All it takes to prevent sneaking from being succesful, is Scent.

The Wizard's HD is also less of an issue, since CON adds to HP. 20 CON (after items) is regular in P&P, and I guess 16 after items in NWN2. Defensive Casting and a high Concentration mod make it less likely that attacks will interrupt spellcasting.

GawainBS wrote:Glitterdust is an offensive spell: it wouldn't be used to deny the Rogue's stealth, but to take him out of the fight.
The point is that a Wizard (in P&P) will never be unprepared, with all his Divination spells and Contingencies. He will probably never even loose initiative. Even then: the prevelance of immunities to Sneak Attack ensures that the Rogue will be reduced to neglible damage. (Two easy to come by ways: Heart of XYZ Element spells, and the Fortification Armour enhancement, either put on Bracers or Twilight something armour.)
Lots of nifty spells are Swift Actions, so you can probably cast two spells a round.
Druids, well, Wildshaped Druid + Natural Spell + Animal Companion = near the pinnacle of melee. All it takes to prevent sneaking from being succesful, is Scent.

The Wizard's HD is also less of an issue, since CON adds to HP. 20 CON (after items) is regular in P&P, and I guess 16 after items in NWN2. Defensive Casting and a high Concentration mod make it less likely that attacks will interrupt spellcasting.

Then in the intervening decades or so the system has become unbalanced. This is pretty much how I feel with many of the "extras" Kaedrin's adds to NWN2.

The more I think about it however, it's largely up to the DM. The DM can certainly say "No" to certain spells and equipment.

Diamonddrago wrote:i am talking about the classes within NWN......

for the warlocks i believe its a 24h spell called "see unseen" or something similar i forgot.....

and not to mention the warlocks high use magic device points...coupled with a few potions/spells like "fox's cunning"...really pushes the warlock class crafting to record highs even at lower levels.....

so warlocks are one wizard class.....tailor made to clean rogue clocks....and the other wizard classes have more creative ways to deal with em.....

so the balance you mentioned is shot.....NWN is as free-for-all as any D&D game.....the experience and ownage...its all in the Player's hands....

See the Unseen is a "least" invocation that allows you to see *invisible* and see in normal darkness. Duration is a full day (..though that's largely a "moot" point considering that a Warlock can cast over and over again without limit). ***It does NOT help with spotting opponents that are hiding, except for the range added to spot via the "Darkvision" component when in normal Darkness.***

Nor are Warlocks a "Wizard class".

Wizards specifically "pull" from the arcane spell listing, and are limited to a certain number of spells per resting period. Warlocks do neither.

The hit die is better with the Warlock class (than a pure Arcane class), AND they gain damage reduction - making them more difficult to kill without the aid of spell/invocation.

Also note that "Use Magic Device" is a *Rogue-type* skill, NOT a Wizard skill.

Realistically the Warlock is (or *can* be) something similar to a magical Rogue. It would have to derive it's stealth-like ability from Walk Unseen's Invisibility - which again is *different* than actual Stealth (or hiding).

The "flip-side" of a Warlock is a Bard - which is also a Rogue-type class. It does pull from the arcane spell listing, AND it has access to true stealth and spot and listen (plus numerous other skills), but it doesn't have "sneak attack" damage.

Sorry everyone but we need to get this thread back on topic. If you want to continue discussing rogues, wizards, warlocks etc. then you are welcome to start a new thread as long as it stays relevant to NWN2

mr_sir wrote:Sorry everyone but we need to get this thread back on topic. If you want to continue discussing rogues, wizards, warlocks etc. then you are welcome to start a new thread as long as it stays relevant to NWN2

You could always "split-off" the thread, no?

Relevant to NWN2 rogues can win but I'd give the edge to wizards. All the wizard has to connect with is Bigbys and then finish off with IGMS... I am talking from experience with some of my rogues fighting in Mithradates Hall of Training. The AI was improved and thats what the wizards would do to you.

Now granted I am probably not the most skilled player but I'd rather take on a fighter with a rogue than a wizard. Fighter has to disarm you if you have HIPs and if you take a monk level you avoid attacks of opportunity unarmed.

Rogues can use scrolls of mantle, but that never saved many of my rogues, again I am probably not the most skilled player. AI has tactics against mantles I think there is a spell flame arrow that each of the arrows the game engine counts as a spell level... in other words there are anti mantle tactics and a well played mage should beat a rogue. Incidentally which brings us to cleric. A cleric can also beat down a fighter unless the fighter is multiclassed into something with UMD and still its hard to have scrolls that bring down the clerics buffs.

In terms of multiclassing who knows but other than that I would put it..

wizard = cleric > fighter > rogue (but if the rogue is allowed Shadow Dancer then he beats fighter)

If they are straight vanilla non-multiclassed builds



Ok now relevant to Miss monk I agree to take a shadow dancer level. I would pump only 1 stat and the other ones I would make as high as possible with point buy at level 1 but then not touch them.

For the original campaign I would choose strength because you can stack +5 gear and get an unhittable AC even without dexterity. Dexterity does not deal damage.

Rely on your companions to help you in the early fights. Use barkskin to raise AC seems to make the difference in my experience.

Claudius wrote: Rely on your companions to help you in the early fights. Use barkskin to raise AC seems to make the difference in my experience.

Don't forget Improved Mage Armor to stack with it! Like a Duracell, it lasts and lasts. :laugh:

(use notes: best utilized when cast from a wand.)