Any good books?

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Sun Sep 23, 2001 12:34 am

Originally posted by HighLordDave:
Salvatore's battle scences are some of the most boring parts of his books and the main reason why I though that the Legacy of the Drow series (The Legacy, Starless Night, Siege of Darkness, and Passage to Dawn) was below par for Salvatore. Instead of being character-driven, they were plot-driven, a serious blow to most books.

I have to say I don't totally agree with you there. I think the battles are some of the most interesting parts of Salvatore's books. However, I'm somewhat obsessed with swordfights. A lot of it depends on your perspective and personal tastes. I haven't gotten to the Legacy of the Drow series yet, so I don't know how good it is compared to Dark Elf Trilogy and IWD. I do agree that character-driven books are better. Which actually adds to the importance of the battles. Salvatore shows us more of Drizzt's inner conflicts during the battle scenes than in a lot of the other scenes.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 12:56 pm

It is unfortunate that Salvatore fell into this trap during the Legacy of the Drow, but after a while reading fight scenes is like listening to Air Supply songs: they all sound the same.

Part of the problem is the medium we're discussing, books. Where a movie like The Matrix can show us something that we've never seen before (ie-"Bullet Time" SFX) and Jackie Chan can get his body to move in ways that are impossible for normal people, a book requires us to visualise all of the action in our heads. When you start adding book upon book to several series, it is very hard to keep coming up with fresh ways of repackaging the same basic content. That is a task most people (Salvatore included) simply cannot do again and again.

It may just be me, but I can't keep track of who's doing what and swinging this way and parrying that way and jumping over the table and catching the falling priceless vase off the shelf while the damsal in distress tries to escape her bonds while the castle catches fire; it's just too confusing.

That's not to say that action is completely unnecessary; a Nicholas Sparks book can be just boring. However, The Notebook is driven almost entirely by character and story, doesn't have much of a plot, but I was crying (sobbing!) in several parts. Sparks knew exactly what buttons to push to get his audience to buy into the book and provoke an emotional reaction. (Unfortunately his other books are very formulaic and not as good).

Other authors use the medium to provide the emotional connection which causes a varity of responses from fear to wonder to lust to revulsion, and fight scences are usually not the primary vehicle. Stephen King is the best example. Try reading Misery or Pet Sematary and not being scared.

Salvatore is a great writer because of the emotional investment his reader makes in Drizzt Do'Urden. Through the dark elf's eloquence, Salvatore connects us to his character (and ultimately each other). It's not the fighting. It's not the supporting characters. It's not the villain. It's not the cool stunts or his magical gear. It is the ranger's simple humanity that keeps us coming back for more.

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: HighLordDave ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 1:29 pm

Originally posted by HighLordDave:
Part of the problem is the medium we're discussing, books. Where a movie like The Matrix can show us something that we've never seen before (ie-"Bullet Time" SFX) and Jackie Chan can get his body to move in ways that are impossible for normal people, a book requires us to visualise all of the action in our heads. When you start adding book upon book to several series, it is very hard to keep coming up with fresh ways of repackaging the same basic content. That is a task most people (Salvatore included) simply cannot do again and again.

It may just be me, but I can't keep track of who's doing what and swinging this way and parrying that way and jumping over the table and catching the falling priceless vase off the shelf while the damsal in distress tries to escape her bonds while the castle catches fire; it's just too confusing.

Hmm...well, I can easily keep track of all that stuff and even apply matrix style sfx to it when imagining it in my head and such. I do realize that a lot of people ain't capable of doing that(such as my mum). *shrugs* To each their own, ne?

Originally posted by HighLordDave:
Salvatore is a great writer because of the emotional investment his reader makes in Drizzt Do'Urden. Through the dark elf's eloquence, Salvatore connects us to his character (and ultimately each other). It's not the fighting. It's not the supporting characters. It's not the villain. It's not the cool stunts or his magical gear. It is the ranger's simple humanity that keeps us coming back for more.

What got me first interested in the Drow was Qilué in Silverfall: Stories of the Seven Sisters. I then saw Dark Elf Trilogy in the store and bought it. That got me hooked on Drizzt for two reasons.

1.) His fighting skills impressed me. I'm a 'bit' obsessed with swordfights.

I pretty much can't get enough of them. I also liked the fact that Drizzt used two scimitars in place of the, from what I've seen in other stuff, more common sword in one hand and sheild in the other method of fighting. I've always considered carrying a shield pointless. If you can't dodge an attack or block/defend it with your sword(s), then you deserve to get hit.

2.) His personality, dilemmas, etc. All that stuff that makes Drizzt a great character. Where is a lot of Drizzt's character defined? In battle. The way I see it, we learn more about Drizzt during a confrontation than outside of it and most of what we learn outside of his confrontations are from his reflecting upon previous confrontations. Despite our gender difference, I'm easily able to imagine that I'm Drizzt fighting through a horde of Ilithid, orcs, goblins, etc.; though, I must say that I would've chosen differently at the graduation(?) ceremony at the school in Menzobaranzen.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sun Oct 28, 2001 6:20 pm

I've moved on from FR to Dragonlance.
I have to say DL books are far better. More exciting, and being situated on a smaller continent seems makes a difference.
I've read the 4 chroncile books, the legends books, and the crossroad series(5th age). I'm going to go to the War of Souls now. I've mainly stuck with Weis and Hickman because IMO those two are really good.

But doesn't the 2nd cataclysm and departure of gods suck. I hate the 5th age. The world's no good without gods.
And i liked the Heroes of the Lance far better than their kids.
The first 3 chronicle books, and the legends books, were really good, especially Dragons of the Autumn Twilight. It started it off, and still the best. Its pure adventure, without any of Flint or Sturm dying.

All in all, the 5th age sucks. Palin is ok, but i liked Raist far more. Same goes with Sturm, flint, tanis, goldmoon. Tas manages to survive everything, but he's a kender.

The dark knight idea seemed cool, but i was upset that the Dragon's of the Summer Flame made the War of the Lance seem pointless. Peace for 20 years, what a waste. I thought the Solamnic knights were going to become hereos once again for a while, not for 20 freakin years. I wish Paladine hadn't said that the 5th age would be the last age of Krynn. I would make my own adventure to go and find the old gods, and bring the companions back.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sun Oct 28, 2001 8:14 pm

@thorin: I'm actually the opposite to you, in some respects. I started reading DL back in grade five (about six years ago) but switched to Forgotten Realms. I too found the 5th age lacking, and enjoyed the 4th much more, but most of my enjoyment ended with Dragons of Summer Flame, when most of my fav characters were killed (Tanis, Tas, Steele) and Raistlin left with the gods. The first three books (The War of the Lance Trilogy) were by far the best Weis and Hickman wrote, and will ever remain a favorite of mine.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 4:46 pm

I also didn't like that those guys died in Dragons of the Summer Flame.
Sturm's death was pretty sad, but he died in great honor and now a legend. Sure the others are legends too, but nothing can compare to him being impaled by Kitiarna and then Laurana coming to defend him. That was a great scene.
Tanis died without even getting a chance to put up a fight.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:12 pm

I started reading Dragonlance in 1985 when it first came out along with the adventure modules. I was in 6th grade. I devoured the Chronicles and Legends, then read the Dragonlance Tales. That's when I quit reading Dragonlance.

In my opinion, too many authors writing too many stories with the same characters and no communication spelled death for the series. That's the problem with Star Trek and other series books.

I believe that with few exceptions, only a character's creator can effectively write for them. You see it when people other that Margaret Weis try to write Raistlin. It's often horrible.

The notable exception to this is the Star Wars books, which use some staple characters (Luke, Han, Leia, et al) and a bunch of authors with a remarkable amount of success. That's not to say that all Star Wars books are great (they're not; many aren't even good), but because none of the SW authors write in a vacuum, there is some continuity in the series.

Still, can anyone other than Timothy Zahn write Grand Admiral Thrawn or Supreme Commander Pellaeon and not come across as an imposter? No. The same was true for the Heroes of the Lance, especially Tanis, Caramon, Raistlin and Tasslehoff. Each spoon in the pot did not enhance the character; usually it made them worse.

Krynn is a wonderful world, but it's not big enough for all of the stories you could tell about it. Part of the problem is that Krynn is a geographically small campaign setting that is fairly homogenous, whereas Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms are sprawling worlds with many different cultures, creatures and races.

I read Dragons of Summer Flame when it came out, but I couldn't tell you how it ended. I just didn't care. I didn't read it over and over like I did the Chronicles or Legends. Maybe I was away from Dragonlance too long, or maybe I was captured by the magic of the Realms.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 9:30 pm

I find that the Realms has much more intrigue to it. Wheteher it's because of the bigger setting, or the people. DL, on the other hand, is the same thing over and over. I got bored of them after reading the War of the Lance, and all of the Meeting Sextet.