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Quote by Pellinore

Pretty good idea, Blackraven. Years and years and years and years ago when in my 20's My pen & paper D&D and Champions group did this and it was quite fun.

Mine did too, well not Champions, but for D&D.

My best stats would be Intelligence & Wisdom
As the old 2nd Ed AD&D book described wisdom, it was the ability to put knowledge and information into practice. I think Gary Gygax described it as, knowing smoking is bad for you is knowledge and reflects intelligence, wisdom would be putting that knowledge to practice and stopping.

I am usually pretty good at putting bits of info together and I was usually the one to stop and say "wait a minute, let's think about this." So, I was the Cleric in group.

Hmm, I've stopped smoking lots of times, I guess by now I should be immune to 1st level illusion spells.

galraen wrote:So how did you gauge your strength and wisdom? Int is actually the easiest I think, simply divide your IQ by ten (round up or down).

Oh that makes more sense than the way I was doing it. However this would mean only 2.5% of people would have an intelligence score over 13 (since two standard deviations of IQ is 30 points). Does Imoen really have an IQ of 170? Doubt it!

I mapped 130 to 17.55 (18 - 0.025*18) which is wrong in a bunch of ways but might be closer to what the game intended it to be.

Blackraven. wrote:Does Imoen really have an IQ of 170? Doubt it!

You would be surprised. I'm not saying that Imoen is smart, i'm saying, that people who have no knowledge, experience or character can still have extreme IQ values.

Myself i wouldn't ever connect IQ with D&D Int. Int in D&D is what a character knows, not picking the right circle and square combination from three possible options.

Sure it could be a part of it, but Int as a stat is the most difficult to calculate.

Stworca wrote:You would be surprised. I'm not saying that Imoen is smart, i'm saying, that people who have no knowledge, experience or character can still have extreme IQ values.

Myself i wouldn't ever connect IQ with D&D Int. Int in D&D is what a character knows, not picking the right circle and square combination from three possible options.

Sure it could be a part of it, but Int as a stat is the most difficult to calculate.

Maybe GPA would be better?

I like your post on strength determination. Looking at the chart I think I might be stronger than I though .

When I ran into Shank I did what I would do and ran to the guards. They just watched as the guy tried to stab me! Jerks.

When I ran into Shank I did what I would do and ran to the guards. They just watched as the guy tried to stab me! Jerks.

Then they are doing what city police do in real life!:laugh:

Ideally the perfect int test would be the same for each person, but each person would have to have the exact same education program. It is impossible, and will be impossible for at least a few centuries.. when there are no borders, no censored elements, perfect equality and chances for everyone.

For now.. It's hard to say.

Let me use english education in Poland and in Holland as examples. Maturity exams from English subject in Poland are easier to pass, than random tests in Dutch elemental.
The material that is covered up is insufficient for anything more than basic conversation, thus if both, a random Polish guy and a random Dutch guy took the exact same test, the first one would look like an idiot.

Now let's take another example. History. A guy after polish high school knows much more about history of each country, sometimes including US, than a person from US with the same education.
No, it's not meant to be an insult. It's not the students fault that they just don't teach you **** in states, while to pass the exams in Poland you have to know far too much about countries that you won't ever visit nor even remotely care about. All the dynasties, all the rulers, all the important dates, from all civilised countries.

Out of Fourty Three people that i've asked the exact same question, "Do you know who Erwin Rommel was?" only one knew the answer. If a teacher in high school received an "i dont know" answer, he would beat you to death with a chair... Oh, wait, they cannot use force anymore. For a decade or so.. (allegedly for over three decades, but that's OT)

My point is - there is no such test, that would give everyone the same chances. Except IQ tests, but as i said, these aren't too accurate.

Stworca wrote:Ideally the perfect int test would be the same for each person, but each person would have to have the exact same education program. It is impossible, and will be impossible for at least a few centuries.. when there are no borders, no censored elements, perfect equality and chances for everyone.
....

My point is - there is no such test, that would give everyone the same chances. Except IQ tests, but as i said, these aren't too accurate.

I know what you mean. In Canada it's the same. I learned much more history is polish school on Saturdays then I did in all of normal education. They cut out even more since I was in high school. It's not just history that's like this. It's a real problem!

Anyway... back on topic. I agree there's no good test but it's just a game so it doesn't have to be spot on. I wonder if IQ could be used to determine wisdom?

Side note: It seems that BG has a pretty big polish fan base. I remember I had a vulgar polish word as my username originally since I thought nobody would know what it meant. That didn't last very long :laugh:

Intelligence and education are not the same thing. Someone can be uneducated (which isn't always their fault) but still be a very smart individual. In the 2nd edition Skills & Powers supplements they broke each stat into two sub-stats.

Strength: Muscle & Stamina
Dexterity: Aim & Balance
Constitution: Health & Fitness
Intelligence: Reason & Knowledge
Wisdom: Intuition & Wiillpower
Charisma: Leadership & Appearance

I actually liked the Skills & Powers book for these reasons. One could more easily gauge their attributes with this method.

Pellinore wrote:Intelligence and education are not the same thing. Someone can be uneducated (which isn't always their fault) but still be a very smart individual. In the 2nd edition Skills & Powers supplements they broke each stat into two sub-stats.

Strength: Muscle & Stamina
Dexterity: Aim & Balance
Constitution: Health & Fitness
Intelligence: Reason & Knowledge
Wisdom: Intuition & Wiillpower
Charisma: Leadership & Appearance

I actually liked the Skills & Powers book for these reasons. One could more easily gauge their attributes with this method.

I never said that Intelligence is Education. Each part of the wall of text i've used as my post clearly stated that Intelligence is Knowledge, but knowledge is dependant on your education far too much to make a universal test possible for all people.

Reason is a fair point.

I'd add Reflexes to Dexterity, if it wasnt a roll already

I think reflexes was incorporated into Balance. Aim was for hand-eye coordination. Its been too long, please don't press me on the details

Pellinore wrote:I think reflexes was incorporated into Balance. Aim was for hand-eye coordination. Its been too long, please don't press me on the details

Don't worry *presses on for details*

Not wanting to go OT here but I think this will help out a bit for anyone wanting to Gauge their own stats. The Skills & Powers book divided the stats into 2 sub-stats as mentioned. The player can then use his/her score and modify it by one or two points. Example:

Str 14 Muscle 16 Stamina 12
Dex 17 Aim 18 Balance 16

and so forth...

Stworca wrote:Intelligence is Knowledge

I can only assume that there is a translation problem here, because that is completely wrong; in fact it virtually means the same as Intelligence = Education.

Intelligence isn't defined by what you know, but how well you comprehend what you know, or have been taught and how well you can utilise it.

Knowledge on its own is just a personal mental library, and with a library, just because you have the books, it doesn't mean you know how to read them.

However this would mean only 2.5% of people would have an intelligence score over 13 (since two standard deviations of IQ is 30 points). Does Imoen really have an IQ of 170? Doubt it!

I'm not sure you can apply statistics to this actually, but eve if you could it wouldn't really be relevant. Characters in AD&D are supposed to be exceptional, not run of the mill. As it happens I've known a few people who had IQ's in excess of 160, but nearly all of them are close to being the definition of an idiot savant! My father in law was close to genius level, but ask him to change a light bulb!!!!!!!

I'm not sure if just being able to lift a certain weight really gives you a good idea of strength either, just how much chance to you have of bending an iron bar?

galraen wrote:I can only assume that there is a translation problem here, because that is completely wrong; in fact it virtually means the same as Intelligence = Education.

Intelligence isn't defined by what you know, but how well you comprehend what you know, or have been taught and how well you can utilise it.

Knowledge on its own is just a personal mental library, and with a library, just because you have the books, it doesn't mean you know how to read them.

Ah, indeed. I've defined the word "knowledge" as something else. Thankfully the everwatching Gal(raen) caught it

I've meant not knowing dry facts, but instead.. knowing.. the world i'm looking for is understanding i guess. However, it's more than just connecting dots in the right order, or choosing circle instead of a square to put in a round slot. IQ doesn't tell the whole story due to luck element. One would have to take ten IQ tests and the average would be the potential Int stat, but it's still more than just that. IQ tests are too.. plain.

Still, you cannot understand or comprehend something you havent ever heard about, thus while education (knowledge) isn't a prerequisite to beign intelligent, it IS a prerequisite to beign intelligent "on paper".

And this is why i cannot see any way of measuring this particullar stat by D&D standards

edit : Had a long day which included 12 hours behind wheel.. And in a few hours i'll spend ANOTHER 16.. A poor excuse perhaps, but this is why i'm rambling incoherently.

it IS a prerequisite to beign intelligent "on paper".

Hmm, I guess you can understand why I'm scornful of school exams then. I don't know about other countries, but in the UK GCSEs (tests taken at 16 at the end of the standard education process) and the like are tests of a kids ability to emulate a parrot, not to discern their intelligence.

I'm not the smartest guy on the planet but I do consider myself a decent high average (smart enough to not vote for G.W. Bush, or would that be a wisdom check?) But I have a great memory retention and decent reasoning skills. In school I could perfectly pass tests without ever studying for them and was on a college reading level when I was 10 but have always been remedial at best in mathematics. So how would one score that?

smart enough to not vote for G.W. Bush, or would that be a wisdom check?

That could pass for an intelligence test; a wisdom test would be being wise enough to know that Obama wouldn't be much different!:laugh:

Pellinore wrote:I have a great memory retention and decent reasoning skills. In school I could perfectly pass tests without ever studying for them and was on a college reading level when I was 10 but have always been remedial at best in mathematics. So how would one score that?

Honestly?
Human intelligence isn't normaly that low... Somewhere around negative 2. :laugh: I'm joking, i'm joking. I think this particular stat is for each one of us to judge by themselves. We don't know each other well enough.