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If you can't see that Edwin is absurdly powerful, then you're doing it wrong. He gets enough lvl 7 slots to cast Projected Image what, 5-6 times? That's enough Dragon's Breath, Greater Malisons, Remove Magics, Breaches, and Horrid Wiltings to drop ANYTHING in the game multiple times over.

Space Invader wrote: 4th, how many Wish spells do you think are needed to replenish your spellbook? 1? Even using projected images you will need many slots, since it's not a sorcerer the class we are talking about. Edwin has them and still cast many others, unlike your multi.

Thats precisely why mages are weak. Have to memorize too many utility spells. Ok level 7 and anything else we cant forget, although it is worth mentioning that Edwins PIs will have a lot of junk defensive spells. But level 9. Without Alacrity Edwin isnt gonna cast much. And without Wish he isnt going to cast much either. (and neither will the whole party in that case). And having both he is twice as weak as a sorc. And thats Edwin, take Nalia and its even worse. What is she having, 3 level 9 spells by game end. Thats about 1 wish, yes.

A multi mage isnt a caster, he doesnt need lvl9 spells at all. Stoneskin, protection from magical weapon, and a couple of spell school immunity, make him absolutely immune to all damage, but Jan spike traps. Turn on whirlwind and win any encounter.

galraen wrote:
He is the most powerful class, unless of course all you're interested in is hack and slash!*

They aren't supposed to attack in a physical sense, they are supposed to cast spells. Why on earth would a mage engage in physical combat?

Why, well for example cast Timestop, Shapechange into an mind flayer, attack. Attacks in timestop are autohit. Nothing is immune to Int drain, you can kill anyone. Anyone. Even otherwise immortal creatures. That sometimes truly is gamebreaking, in a literal sense. Ofc Edwin cant do this, because he doesnt have the space for these spells. Nor does he have the attack number, to make it count.

Arcane casters utterly demolish the game at almost any stage. It doesn't matter if they are mages, sorcerers, or multiclasses. They can all tank the universe with a multitude of absolutely, ludicrously overpowered protection spells and do more damage in a wider area than any two non-arcane casters ever could. With that in mind, Edwin is in no way weak IMO.

Meleeing with a multiclass while covered in the game's numerous cheesy protection spells is very effective (indeed, that is how I first won this game), but I find personally that running headfirst into the opposition and sunfiring everything in sight gets the job done just as well. With the right stuff up, nothing seems to get through. Since whirlwind has been noted, I'm assuming we are considering HLAs, in which case Ed WILL have alacrity and even with one casting will be able to fry an entire room of beholders, mind flayers, and just about anything else without batting an eye. Just time stop, IA, and blow up the world.

Granted, Jan etc. can do this stuff too, but it takes them longer to get there. IMO, that is an important point as the early game can be more frustrating than the later.

How, exactly, does Ed not have the space? He levels as fast as any other mage. If he wants to turn into a mind flayer and stat drain everything, there is nothing stopping him. It's not as if he's capped at 1 spell per level or something. BTW, multis level VERY slowly; I have a game going at the moment with a sorcerer that can cast HLA's, while my F/M with roughly equal experience does not even have level 8 spells!

Just my two cents.

roller1234 wrote:Thats precisely why mages are weak. Have to memorize too many utility spells. Ok level 7 and anything else we cant forget, although it is worth mentioning that Edwins PIs will have a lot of junk defensive spells. But level 9. Without Alacrity Edwin isnt gonna cast much. And without Wish he isnt going to cast much either. (and neither will the whole party in that case). And having both he is twice as weak as a sorc. And thats Edwin, take Nalia and its even worse. What is she having, 3 level 9 spells by game end. Thats about 1 wish, yes.

A multi mage isnt a caster, he doesnt need lvl9 spells at all. Stoneskin, protection from magical weapon, and a couple of spell school immunity, make him absolutely immune to all damage, but Jan spike traps. Turn on whirlwind and win any encounter.

So much ignorance:

1.) The utility spells like Breach, RRR, DM,etc are absolutely neccessary otherwise you just get owned while the enemy mage hides under II, SI: D and Stoneskins/Mirrors and other nice nasty combos.
Therefore saying you need to "memorize useless crap" is the epitome of ignorance if I ever saw one.

2.) He can cast quite a lot with Triggers and (Chain)Contingencies.

3.) Um yeah that is one way to play the game. Not the only one and not the fastest either. Just one dispel from a high level lich/dragon/etc. and say bye bye to your protections by the way.

4.) Edwin at end game has iirc 8 level 9 spells talkin about ToB of course and with fixed PnP 2nd Ed. spell progression tables at level 31.

5.) That being said, mages are masters in terms of CC,Buffs and AoE/Burst. Other classes are better at continuous damage IF you cannot rest in an area or cannot get Wish Rest.

6.) Multi and Dual Classes take a lot longer to get the really good spells (level 7 and higher) unless you dualled right at the start.

Let me guess you play the game unmodded?
Please stop spouting your ignorant crap on this forum.
And just for the record, I have no problem if you think that multi class or dual class are stronger/strongest but I do have to comment on such idiotic ignorant crap claiming that mages/sorcs are crap classes.

This is getting a little bit off-topic, but I hope it's a alright. Otherwise, DW will arrive.

I guess I'll join the mob, since the mob is 100% correct and lemme add my two cents to the discussion.

Ok level 7 and anything else we cant forget, although it is worth mentioning that Edwins PIs will have a lot of junk defensive spells. But level 9. Without Alacrity Edwin isnt gonna cast much. And without Wish he isnt going to cast much either.

This doesn't make sense, actually. Last time I checked, I believe that you are playing the game and no one else. You treat mages, as if they can't just... adjust their spellbooks, erase and add new spells (the ones you like) and play as you see fit. They aren't frozen or stunned in any way, geez. And (!) if you check vanilla Edwin's spellbook, it almost bleeds with 'red' icons (offensive/evocation and conjuration spells).

I dunno, I've been playing BG for a long time and I barely use Wish. I don't see its use and that 'recover all spells' variant appears infrequently. You can freely finish the game without the wish spell.

Why, well for example cast Timestop, Shapechange into an mind flayer, attack. Attacks in timestop are autohit. Nothing is immune to Int drain, you can kill anyone. Anyone. Even otherwise immortal creatures. That sometimes truly is gamebreaking, in a literal sense. Ofc Edwin cant do this, because he doesnt have the space for these spells. Nor does he have the attack number, to make it count.

You contradict yourself. First line - "Attacks in timestop are autohits." after that you write - Nor does he have the attack number, to make it count. Wut? During timestop attacks are set to 10/10 (default), so unless you score a critical miss (dice roll=1), you can hit pretty much anything.

Yeah, in vanilla you can pown with Melissan with Mind Flayer, but only in vanilla. Mods add immunities to this cheese. (same with imprisonment)

Edwin cant do this, because he doesnt have the space for these spells.

*epic facepalm* It's been said here, that Edwin is much more powerful than any other mage because of +2 slot per level. (+3 if you count his specialization) And spell slots is everything that a good wizard needs in the game. And don't forget Ring of Wizardry/Acuity and other spellcasting stuff.

IMHO, wizard are more flexible than sorcerers. A wizard can ready up to any unique encounter, while a sorcerer is stuck with his or her spells till the end of the game. And what if you screw up choosing your spells? (just a possibility, since everyone read a guide to sorcerer spells )