Point Buy

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Feb 08, 2002 6:17 pm

What's the point of rolling your stats if people will reroll until they get something they like? You can't enforce rolling only once (I'd reinstall the damn game to get rid of a bad roll if I had to

), so rolling just means another game in which no character with four stats of 18 is worth much.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 1:32 am

Originally posted by HighLordDave
Beyond CRPGs, I have grown up around Pnp RPGs that use die rolls to generate attributes and to scrap the random element in character creation for the sake of parity seems heretical.

I’ve been playing PnP RPGs for years as well. And I know how much it sucks when one of your fellow players gets lucky and rolls three 18s while your highest stat is a 15. Point Buy makes evebody equal, which I think is a good thing for RPGs.

Originally posted by Xyx
What's the point of rolling your stats if people will reroll until they get something they like? You can't enforce rolling only once (I'd reinstall the damn game to get rid of a bad roll if I had to ), so rolling just means another game in which no character with four stats of 18 is worth much.

Oh exactly. I can’t tell you how much it disgusts me when I see someone post their BG character and he/she has no stat under 16.

Rolling for stats just means the player will be sitting in front of his computer for hours until he gets the stats that he wants for his character. The Point Buy system eliminates this foolery. Go Point Buy!

XandarDae'Ithil · Post by **XandarDae'Ithil** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 8:30 am

The one thing I don't like about IWD2 is that they are having point buy, why can't we use rolls?
I think there should be an option on which to use.

DraySkullan · Post by **DraySkullan** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 9:44 am

I like a point buy system, as long as it's reasonable. As silly as it is to have a party of god-children with no stat lower than 16 walking around, it's equally rediculous to have a bunch of average high school kids out to save the world. There has to be a happy medium. Give a decent amount of points to buy from.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 1:50 pm

Originally posted by DraySkullan
I like a point buy system, as long as it's reasonable. As silly as it is to have a party of god-children with no stat lower than 16 walking around, it's equally rediculous to have a bunch of average high school kids out to save the world. There has to be a happy medium. Give a decent amount of points to buy from.

Hear, hear! I totally agree!

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Feb 09, 2002 5:51 pm

I don't really see the point of not using Point Buy. Don't want everyone to have the same stats? I don't call 18,18,18,3,3,3 very original either. Afraid you'll be playing some weenie wussy? No worries; you get 25 points, but the average peasant should be happy if he receives even half.

Originally posted by XandarDae'Ithil
why can't we use rolls?
I think there should be an option on which to use.

Hah. And what self-respecting powergamer would use Point Buy when he can sit in front of his computer for two hours and get a better total? Not me. Therefore, I'd rather be saved the drudgery of two hours' clicking, and ease my powergaming conscience with the secure knowledge that nothing I could have done would have given me better stats.

Go Point Buy!

XandarDae'Ithil · Post by **XandarDae'Ithil** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:56 pm

As I said, make it an option. That way, people who want point buy, get point buy, and people who want rolls get rolls.
Everyone happy.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sun Feb 10, 2002 8:32 pm

It's not quite that simple. The game is being designed with point buy in mind. Having characters with uber-stats will throw off game balance. Not to mention the stat discrepancy if people play online.

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 3:46 am

Originally posted by DraySkullan
I like a point buy system, as long as it's reasonable. As silly as it is to have a party of god-children with no stat lower than 16 walking around, it's equally rediculous to have a bunch of average high school kids out to save the world. There has to be a happy medium. Give a decent amount of points to buy from.

Well said!!!!

Onyx

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Mon Feb 11, 2002 12:11 pm

Sitting in front of the computer hitting "Reroll" a million times rewards player perseverence. In my mind, this reflects the party leader assembling "the best of the best" to undertake the quest at hand.

My view of role-playing is that the PCs are "super" heroes; not only are they several steps above peasants, but they are a couple of steps above the average adventurer. Consequently, they should not all be created equal, which is the purpose of the point buy system.

In my PnP games, I only allow my players to roll once for each attribute (actually, I take them at their word that they fairly rolled up each character), although I allow them to re-roll 1s the first go-round. I believe that my view of PCs as extra heroic figures is reflected in the fact that they generally have above average attributes. It also allows characters to have scores like 17, 16, 14, 17, 12, 13, instead of being put on a bell-curve. It also forces players to play with scores like 11, 9, 15, 12, 14, 10 if the dice are working against them that day.

I also spent a lot of time playing in the Palladium RPG system, in which initial attributes are less important than in the AD&D or D&D3 system; Palladium games enable you to choose skills which raise attribute points. Still, while I understand many of the arguments for the point buy system, I think the best way to "roll up" a character is to use dice.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:48 pm

Most people that want to roll do so because they want higher stats than Point Buy will give them. They click Reroll 500 times, then play the game with some 18,18,18,18,18,18 monster.

Two things can happen from here on:

The is too damn easy since it was made with Point Buy in mind, and not some 18 Monster(TM).
The game is just about right for the 18 Monster(TM), but hell for anyone that dared to use Point Buy, or settled for a normal roll of the dice.

You want high stats? Why? Why not just set the difficulty down to Easy?

You want variety between PC ability scores? Straight 18s across the board for every PC in a multiplayer does not sound like variety to me.

HighLordDave · Post by **HighLordDave** » Tue Feb 12, 2002 3:04 pm

As has been pointed out earlier, the people who want to play with munchkin characters will either use a character editor to bump all of their stats up to 28, or use the in-game cheats to load up on the manuals which increase stats (both of which consume far less time than hitting re-roll over and over and over again).

Again, my preference is for die rolls, because that's the type of RPG environment I grew up with and because I prefer a little bit of variance among characters rather than parity.

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:02 am

Why can't people just play a game they way it's made/meant to be played?

Onyx

Gellor · Post by **Gellor** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:26 am

Onyx , I can't agree with you more . 18,18,18,18,18,18 freaks get on my nerves. There always was that element in pnp . But the Dm could always shout them down . But I really hate point buy system . You will end up with all the same PC's . Rolling is the way to go . If you remeber in the 2nd ed Dm guide it gives the point buy suggetion as one way to build pc's . Noone used it . Why can't the game designers figure this out . The point buy system alienates the people who loved Dnd and caters to the Muchkins . Know your market

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:56 am

I won't mind the point-buy system if they adjust the ability score charts accordingly. The reason why so many people, including me, constantly re-roll their stats is that you need an outstanding score in any given stat before you see any benefit. Example: 14 dex is virtually no different from 6 dex - you need at least 15 to see an AC bonus, and at least 16 to improve your missile THACO.

If they handle the point-buy system like that in PS:T, where you don't need high strength to hit the broad side of a barn, you don't need near 100% in thieving skills to use them successfully most of the time, you can gradually improve your stats throughout the game, then I think it will be all right.

However, if they just implement the point-buy system to "level the playing field" without making the forementioned adjustments, and your PC gets to face all kinds of monsters with god-like stats, then I'll probably lose interest fast. If I wanted to play Half-Life, then I'd buy it, and not some RPG version of it.

Onyx · Post by **Onyx** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 11:06 am

Yeah, ok.
But if they are going with 3rd edition rules, then 10 is the average.
12=+1, 14=+2, 16=+3 and so on.
Also no more THACO with 3rd ed. Strength mod for melee attacks, Dexterity mod for range attacks. Also add Str mod to melee damage. And are they going to add any skills as in 3rd ed rules?

Onyx

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:43 am

Originally posted by Gellor
I really hate point buy system . You will end up with all the same PC's .

Why? That's in your own hands. Since points over 14 become progressively more expensive, your PCs need not even have similar stats totals.

Originally posted by Gellor
The point buy system alienates the people who loved Dnd and caters to the Muchkins . Know your market

Again, why? Point Buy means the end of the 18 Monster(TM).

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:33 am

Originally posted by Xyx
Since points over 14 become progressively more expensive, your PCs need not even have similar stats totals.

I had heard they were going to do a non-scaling point buy (which quite frankly I like better). Characters should still be able to get some decent stats if this is true. Of course, you’re still right about the different stats. My fighter is obviously going to be stronger than my rogue and unless you were explicitly checking the total stat points you probably wouldn’t even realize they were generated with the same amount of points (due to totally different distribution).

EmptyChaos · Post by **EmptyChaos** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 2:56 pm

Point buy!
You got to be f-ing kidding me... I not even going bother with this game if it's going to be point buy.

"Screw you guys... I'm going home."

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 1:02 pm

Originally posted by EmptyChaos
Point buy!
You got to be f-ing kidding me... I not even going bother with this game if it's going to be point buy.

"Screw you guys... I'm going home."

Just because of a stat system? Thats a little negative.

I agree with Xyx and Kayless on this one, I love the Point Buy system! The stats are cleaner, quicker and easier to understand than having 18/26 or whatever. I don't like rolling because there is bound to be munchkinism. With point buy, everyone is on a limited amount. Your enemies under the same kosh as it were. It makes the game refreshing...

Go Point Buy!