GameBanshee Forums

@Littiz

Well...

1) How can I do without contingencies? One word: Improved Alacrity. Wearing the amulet of power and Vecna's robe if something weird happens just throw a improved alacrity and let the carnage begin... Cast three lower resistances, followed by a bunch of damage spells. Probably a preference thing.

2) THACO's are capped at level 20 for mages, and spell effects are capped at level twenty as well... YOU are the one actually wasting a bunch of levels.

As for the all-powerful Tenser's, Mislead, Improved Haste combo:

A. You are using a Grandmastery patch that allows extra attacks. While that may be fun, it is cheating. I could write a program allowing my magic-user to attack twenty times a round, but that wouldn't make it "the most powerful character." Making the argument "that's the way it is in second edition," is pretty hollow, as the game designers put that in for balancing reasons.

B. Fighter/illusionists could do the exact same thing, they just don't need to. So if you want to play that way with fighter illusionist, you can, and you sill get THE EXACT SAME BENIFITS + hardiness and whirlwinds.

C. Really when you're thaco is -15 in any event, the point becomes moot, you always hit everything.

D. Tenser's disables spellcasting, I find that really annoying as a quick stoneskin, mislead, mirror image or prot from magic weapons save you anyway.

E. Double hit-points? So what? I never get hit, unless I want to. Even then I have 40%-60% damage resistance. (Hardiness+defender of Easthaven.)

3) You are correct in saying it takes a long time to level up this character, since I am soloing, the point is moot, but if not, then I would agree the kensai mage is more powerful sooner.

You also seem to be forgetting about the level cap... You can't get more than 8 mil experince, so you have to leave room for your mage to be able to level higher than your kensai. That also means a LONG time of play just being a plain kensai or a plain mage. In any event, even if you do dual at level 18 as a kensai, you'll get MAYBE 5 special abilities in total. Which would suck.

4) Bezerker's... If you really want to replicate the bezerker's immunities, just put spell-immunity and some spell deflections in one of those contigencies you are so fond of... All you really need is proabbaly spell-immunity abjuration, as by the end of the game you have some ridiculous magic resistance and the cloak of mirroring.

I guess well just have to agree to disagree!

User: I never used mislead much, I'll have to check that out...

UberJason

Edit: I noticed that you've edited and toned down your post
while I was replaying. OK. I don't feel like redoing the whole thing,
just assume I'm no more disappointed, right?

You seem to have taken offence from my words, so I don't like the discussion anymore.
Let's put it this way: I was a PnP roleplayer.
I always played AD&D.
Let's say (if this meets more your likings) that dual are more powerful
in PnP. And I simply adapt the game to what it should be
(in my opinion), and I'm having FUN playing with a dualled char.

In the ORIGINAL rules:
1)GrandMastery is as in BG1
2)There is nothing like an XPcap, so I remove it
3)Races different than HUMANS are CAPPED about 15th level.
So should be every kind of multiclass (the rule has that exact
purpose)
ONLY HUMANS have no limits. No multi of level 24/25, in AD&D...

About the contingiency I was clearly speaking in terms of FUN, as I
like to see spells that trigger WITHOUT my direct command and save my back

About the combo I know you can use it, I was simply saying that
if I have a game-style that uses such a thing I don't need the
abilities (that would be even greyed out).
And I find useful jumping to 300 or more hps.
Simply this. I see no offence in such words.
You do otherwise, good.
Different style of play, as I stated before, just to avoid the kind
of replay you have made nonetheless.

Since you raise the subject, the thread was asking questions about a kensai/mage.
The problem was:
"will my char be still good in ToB?"
And I was simply replaying, "yes, you'll lose the abilities but you can live without them". Which is TRUE.
So there was no need to pointing out that you have a better and
magnificent char.
Anyway, I remark that the "benefits" of soloing are equal for
the two situations, it seems obvious to me.
Even with the XPcap. I'd still go for a dual.
Enough, I won't replay on the subject, maybe we'll be more friendly
in the future.

@Littiz

Yeah, I made an erroneous statement I hoped to correct before anyone caught it, and rereading my post I realized it came out "harsher" than I had intended. I meant no offense, nor did I take any, sometimes when I get into "argue" mode I pull out stops I shouldn't.

I'm a PnP player too... But I believe that computer gaming is a VERY different experience, in PnP Dragons are much stronger, and if you had to fight 7 beholders at the same time you would get your a$$ handed to you.

As such I think one must conform to the world that has been created. I suppose we are arguing from a very different reference.

Again, sorry if I came off as taking offense, I thought it was a good discussion.

Originally posted by Littiz
In the ORIGINAL rules:
...
2)There is nothing like an XPcap, so I remove it

Very good posts Littiz, but there's one point that's not quite correct: In the original 2nd edition rules a character cannot go beyond level 30. Beyond that point lies either death or divine ascension. The non-human level restriction is often questioned by the creators of AD&D themselves and most rulebooks leave it up to the DM to use it. Of course the DM could also rule that there's evolution beyond level 30 but the rules are somewhat more rigid about this. The high level campaign handbook tells pretty much about the abilities and restrictions of high level characters (and how to deal with them as a DM, hehe). But playing a PnP group even near such levels would probably take years if not decades. I never had a PnP character beyond level 6 and I've played PnP for some years. Most DM's seem to think that level 7 has to be earned the hard way, usually killing the party in the process - at least that's my personal experience.

As for the eternal question about superiority of mc or dc I think I agree that it's all about playing style. DC advantage is clearly HP and mastery, mc advantage is clearly HLA. DC is more fun IMHO because you're looking forward to two important breaking points, the point of dualing and the point of regaining your abilities. On the other hand you won't experience your characters full powers for a big part of the game.

UserUnfriendly recently stated the idea that MC is better for soloing or small parties and DC is better with large parties. I think that's a pretty good definition too.

why thank you, for the credit, phantom...

trying out my new kensai, mage, cleric, boy is this class evil....

spell triggers and sequencers some into thier own, not to load offensive stuff, but to set up after major battles, cause I'll load them up with cleric beefing spells, and cast ON MYSELF...this is where triggers and sequencers really come into thier own, as I prefer chain contingency for casting in mid battle, rarely bother with timestop...

problem with the impossible triple class with tob xp cap remover installed, you have to use sk to add quest level mage spells, and you only get specialized for wepons. oh well...

added quest mage spells, and 3 best druid spells, looking foward to some fun...

I currently have a Conjurer, Priest of Lathander, Bounty Hunter, F/M/T, Aerie & Kensai/mage 22/16 in chapter 6 5th level in WK. My FMT has so many skills it is scary, in time he will be able to cast better spells.

My kensai was the ultimate in fighting, but it has been very hard with just my FMT doing the front-line battles since my Kensai dualled in the Underdark(for the spells). I think the higher you dual, the less fun you have, but the higher awards you can reap. While multi-class is just a slow builder, but not as slow as a dualled class in my case. When my K/M gain his fighter's abilities, I think there will be a few duels between my FMT and my K/M...

I also find that my priest have only a few more spells than Aerie but they are about the same bar the hp. She is only about 65% of my conjurer but she is a very good spell caster! Which makes multi-class slightly more fun than dualled classes, but way more fun than single class altogether!



I have some questions of my own for those who can answer...
Can you use sk for alterations in SOA games while TOB is installed? like xp cap remover, missing HLA...

Also, I uninstalled the game about 1 year ago for D2 & LOD, but reinstalled recently. Would the international patch for SOA I downloaded the first time works automatically? Or do I need to find something for the TOB/SOA games?

Anything will help, although I might actually have to study soon...

1) If you downloaded latest version of sk, it will definately work for soa games in tob...

2) do NOT use soa international patch after installing tob!!!bad things will happen...get tob full patch, off bioware site.

Maybe I should have edited my post after all...
No problem, though!
Just a few notes:

I've never been a DM, so, what I can say is that they were
the rules WE used. No limits for humans, and limits for multi.
Anyway, we never reached levels like 17th or so....
All in all, maybe I had some prejudices about multiclasses, 'cause
in PnP they were always (of course) too low in level.
I have to admit that in this game they gained a lot of power,
especially thanx to the HLAs and especially in solo games.
(Anyway I really can't see a gnome as the greatest hero of
the realms! )

UberJason is right, we have to conform to the game.
But the programmers are not godlike creatures, they make mistakes,
so don't take everything like gold.
Just remember the amount of "cheesy knowledge" held in this forum..

I myself "customize" freely my game, but that doesn't mean I make
the game easier.
Some examples:

1)I have the GrandMastery Patch, but in one of my two actual games
nobody is a GrandMaster!!!! So, only enemies gain benefits from
it. And MANY enemies are GrandMasters. Even Dragons I think are intented to be GrandMasters.
In ToB I think almost ALL fighters are grandmasters.

2)I have ALL the IMPROVED FIGHTS from Baldurdash installed
(Illasera, Demogorgon, etc.)

3)I DO NOT use the Cloak of Mirroring at all. Too powerful.

4)I have Xyx's Smart Beholders installed. (Great!)

5)I also have Xyx's Beholder Hive Upgrade. This one is VERY though,
as I rescue Imoen in the beginning, so I have to fight a HIVE
MOTHER around 12th level!!!!!!
With ALL the Beholders that come together, thanx to the new
AI! And WITHOUT the Cloak of Mirroring!
I think I've spent two (real) days there!

6)Also use the Improved AI for dragons

7)ALso use Improved Kangaxx (hard!!!)

8)I try to avoid every kind of cheese. And I discovered A LOT
of cheesy tactics in this forum.

9)Linked to the previous. I almost never prepare before fights.
If you notice, there are very few battles that your party
can foresee (Demogorgon for example).
So I assume I'm almost always surprised by the attacks.
Sure in a dungeon you may cast long duration spells like stoneskin,
but not much more. (And not travelling in a city!)
That's why I like contingiencies. They allow to win battles in a
more realistic way, without reloading and buffing up.
Try the Twisted Rune without preparations! (ok, maybe soloing is easier). You enter "by accident", a Lich speaks and and horde
of enemies suddenly appear!

In the end, I think I play a very, very hard game.
It is true, I remove the XPcap, but this is necessary:
in BG1 you reach 161.000 xp way before the end. This BORES me.
I ended the game just because I HAD to.
Without PROGRESSION, these games lose half of their meaning.
So I remove it. And this is not a great advantage, because I do
not solo, so every char in the end will gain maybe 2 or 3 more levels,
and only if the party is small.
And higher levels just add 1 or 2 HPs and a spell now and then....

Eh, the more I think about it the "best" character is the one you like playing, I think User's point about dual being better for parties and multi being better for solo is quite apt. Although if you remove the XP cap from a multi you would have a real monster on your hands!!! (20 GW and 5-10 Hardiness)

Actually I am having the most fun now trying to solo a Barbarian through SOA and TOB. Just took on Kangaxx at level 12. Did you know that the hammer you find in nalia's keep is considered a +4 weapon for hitting purposes? Made my life a lot easier...