Yes, it's dying.
A lot of people seem to prefer role-playing behind a screen now to paper-and-pen roleplaying. I know a few people who still pnp role play.
Pen and Paper RPG dying??
-
Rudar Dimble
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 11:00 am
- Location: "I did? Hmm...I must be getting old."
- Contact:
I have just introduced 4 new P&P roleplayers, so if we all do that, the P&P will revive!!!
I thinkno computergame can imitate P&P although NWN will be very close to it.
Computergames are different...they cannot be compared to P&P, that's why I think P&P will never die.
I thinkno computergame can imitate P&P although NWN will be very close to it.
Computergames are different...they cannot be compared to P&P, that's why I think P&P will never die.
Broken promises
"They made us many promises,
more than I can remember.
But they kept but one -
They promised to take our land...
and they took it"
Chief Red Cloud
"They made us many promises,
more than I can remember.
But they kept but one -
They promised to take our land...
and they took it"
Chief Red Cloud
-
Rudar Dimble
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 11:00 am
- Location: "I did? Hmm...I must be getting old."
- Contact:
For now, yes. But at this time CRPG's are hot. May be next year not anymore and the people are still dying to play RPG's. Then they will try P&P for a change and discover that it's fun!
They way I see it is that the computerRPG will actually help the P&P instead of killing it...
May be I am only hoping this
They way I see it is that the computerRPG will actually help the P&P instead of killing it...
May be I am only hoping this
Broken promises
"They made us many promises,
more than I can remember.
But they kept but one -
They promised to take our land...
and they took it"
Chief Red Cloud
"They made us many promises,
more than I can remember.
But they kept but one -
They promised to take our land...
and they took it"
Chief Red Cloud
-
The Stranger
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 8:50 am
- Location: Chicago, IL
- Contact:
P&P will not die while I am around! I will continue to buy the books and play the game. I don't want or need someone to tell me what that dragon looks like! I want to picture the face of that orcish shaman as I run him through with my sword! I will decide how that tavern keeper looks as I destroy his establishment in a brawl! I don't want the computer to do it for me.
People are strange when you're a
stranger. Faces look ugly when you're alone...
stranger. Faces look ugly when you're alone...
PnP dead? No way!
Me and my friends (about 10 of us all together) just started playing and we like it. A lot. And we're not gonna stop. Ever!!!! If young people don't want to play PnP, it's their loss. BG-like games are only fun the first time, aftre that, they hit the shelf. DnD is refreshingly new every session. DnD FOR EVER!!!!
Me and my friends (about 10 of us all together) just started playing and we like it. A lot. And we're not gonna stop. Ever!!!! If young people don't want to play PnP, it's their loss. BG-like games are only fun the first time, aftre that, they hit the shelf. DnD is refreshingly new every session. DnD FOR EVER!!!!
Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes right down to the bone
-
Tackon D'wall
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2002 5:08 pm
- Contact:
I truly think at the moment CRPG's are only helping PNP gaming. I mean look at like 10-15 years ago. People at that time either hated D&D thinking it was devil worship stuff, didn't have a clue what it was, or loved it. CRPG's are nice in a way cause they're a quick fix way to escape from everyday life and enjoy the moment. Whereas PNP D&D is something completely different. If u've had extensive experience with both you have to agree with me that both hold different places. PNP D&D allows you to expand u're mind and have a community pool of info that everyone uses. Another thing is that CRPG's at least for me are minor things and tend to fade out fast but PNP creates LONG lasting memories and creates good friendships/teamwork.
Sooooo, to answer u're question I think PNP roleplaying will never die by itself. To me it seems like they both feed each other. I for one hope PNP doesn't die cause to be quite honest yes the computer is great but with every step it gets more developed we as a society lose something... and that's UNITY. I mean let's be honest, to anyone around 25-30 wouldn't you say since the computer is now worldwide less people do things with other people? Instead we bury ourselves in our homes, and I'm just as guilty as anyone else but it's SAD. It started in early 90's, but now families don't even spend long together. I myself HATE it and wish things were back to the 80's. It was great back then. We as a family got together around the holidays and interacted well and played games and made a whole day outta getting to know everyone else and interacting with them. I'm VERY close to my family, don't get me wrong, but now Thanksgiving and such is a JOKE. We all go to my mom's or grandma's and eat a nice meal that the women have slaved over all day to make and then most of the time 30 minutes after we all eat everyone goes their own ways. I have tried a TON of times to meet like once a week or month to share our lives with each other but in this day and age everyone's in such a hurry to do their thing it never happens.
OMG, I'm sorry, I'm rambling now huh?
Well, leave it to be to do those kinds of things
Pray for me
Sooooo, to answer u're question I think PNP roleplaying will never die by itself. To me it seems like they both feed each other. I for one hope PNP doesn't die cause to be quite honest yes the computer is great but with every step it gets more developed we as a society lose something... and that's UNITY. I mean let's be honest, to anyone around 25-30 wouldn't you say since the computer is now worldwide less people do things with other people? Instead we bury ourselves in our homes, and I'm just as guilty as anyone else but it's SAD. It started in early 90's, but now families don't even spend long together. I myself HATE it and wish things were back to the 80's. It was great back then. We as a family got together around the holidays and interacted well and played games and made a whole day outta getting to know everyone else and interacting with them. I'm VERY close to my family, don't get me wrong, but now Thanksgiving and such is a JOKE. We all go to my mom's or grandma's and eat a nice meal that the women have slaved over all day to make and then most of the time 30 minutes after we all eat everyone goes their own ways. I have tried a TON of times to meet like once a week or month to share our lives with each other but in this day and age everyone's in such a hurry to do their thing it never happens.
OMG, I'm sorry, I'm rambling now huh?
Well, leave it to be to do those kinds of things
Pray for me Grand Gladiator of Balmora
Member of the Mark of the Grand
Member of the Mark of the Grand
My comment in support of Azhazel
As a DM and somewhat-veteran PnPer, I will have to state that PnP gaming is dying from certain points of views.
I'll start with my opinions and views:
Of the 7 regular players in my ongoing campaign, only 2 managed to continue playing. 5 of them where drawn away to PC titles.
Their responses to their growing lack of interest were:
1. PC titles allowed them to stay at home, game, and have full control as to when to stop and give attention to their families, lives, etc.
2. PCs offer a 'fair ground'. What this means is there is no personal impartiality or political bias in the gaming environment. A PC is impartial, it doesn't know the difference between Joe and Mike. As a DM it is hard to provide a solid balanced un-biased experience. Someone will always feel they got shafted that session, or didn't receive what they deserve.
3. A PC offers a milestone hard-coded goal anyone can draw an allure from. What this means is; "I got a level 20th character in Morowind, the game that is so hard to get to that level because of blah, and blah, and blah". In a PnP game being any level doesn't hold the value and allure that a PC game enjoys. The value of an achievement in a PnP game is measured by the DM. One DM can make it easy for players to get to 20, while another can make it more difficult, but makes it easier to obtain unique items. This gives the comment "You are level 20 in So-n-So's game but so am I in such-n-such's game and it was harder".
4. Current technology and state of entertainment has instilled a sense in the public of visual splendor and special effects apeal. Some people made coments here and I agree with some of them. It is very hard for myself and other DM's to discribe the visual drama that a Color-Flux spell is engraving the image in the minds of a gamer, when they can see it in full 32bit color on their PC/DvD/Movie Screen.
5. The above goes together with technology and math. The math and mechanics of 3ed DnD for example can be overwhelming for some that prefer to have a PC do it in the background. Believe me, it can get daunting to insure that Billyjoe is making sure that on the charge he is:
+2 for charging
+1 because he has Weapon Focus, Longsword
+4 for his 18 Strength
+6 Base attack
...and +2 because he is flanking the orc on the side.
but wait, the orc is partially behind a rockface, so his ac goes
+2 partial cover
dexterity not lost because he is being flanked from the side
and no attack of oppertunity because Billyjoe charged in and attacked.
and thats DnD at its simplest form, lets not even get into the whole schpeil on partial actions, round equivalent actions, move equivalent actions, and mounted combat...
6. Time in today's world is so clogged up with everyday schedules that at most you see is one game a week (per campaign). Fireing up the PC and loading up an MP session of NWN takes a quarter of the time and preperation that it takes to conduct a PnP session. Now I understand regular gaming clubs (I will go into detail on those below) and how they have scheduled game nights, but these have taken a hit.
My personal facts on gamers and gaming clubs in the central California valley:
Of the 5 known gaming clubs (Area 51, The Little Generals, Game Preserve, Epic Worlds, Hobbytown);
Area 51 - closed
reason: Out of business (mismanagement)
The Little Generals - Closed, groups disbanded and occasionaly play 40K at Epic
reason: Out of business (mismanagement), groups lost interest, loss of members.
Gamers Unite - Closed to gaming groups, still sells D20 products.
reason: Bad rep with gamers, new focus of being a retail outlet over a gaming club.
Epic Worlds - Had 5+ ongoing Wheel of Time, Forgotten Realms, DnD and Vampire campaigns. Now only has one DnD campaign. Reason: More interest was given to Legend of the Five Rings playing card game. Bad rep with gamers and focus on being a retail outlet over a gaming club. Loss of gamers, groups disbanded, some occasionaly play WH40K and LotFR CG.
Other facts:
From Wizards of the Coast:
In her coment regarding graphic art assignments and commisioning artists for books Dawn Murin coments:
"because the rates for RPGs are not like they are for Magic: The Gathering. We just don't have the art budget. Our print runs are smaller, the sales aren't quite the same, and it's more expensive to print a book than cards. As a result, we just don't have as much money. So, there are artists I don't call on just because I know they'd be insulted. But for Deities and Demigods, I've been able to get some amazing people. Donato told me, 'I do the big jobs so I can do the little jobs like this one that I really want to do.'"
Lezlie Samuel on the article "Beyond the Gaming Table"
She coments on the aquisition of WoTC by Hasbro, the WoTC business projections and aspiring hopes for the new DnD, towards the end she states:
"With the assistance of Hasbro's many divisions, we hope to dissolve any negative perceptions about our brands so we can focus our efforts on making the products that D&D players want to have, even if they have long since abandoned the game stores. We'll bring them all back somehow, and a few more to boot!"
Wizards of the Coasts admits to the influence of both the Card gaming and Computer gaming. Of note is their article on computer RPG's titles "The Role of Computers in RPGs". Very interesting and being a DM I hope to see allot of WoTCs expressions being comited to.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp? ... r20011230a
One of the coments sumarizes some of my statements above:
"Many consumers primarily want to play in a prefabricated campaign that requires little or no preparation on their part. One type of computer product that fulfills this wish is the massively multiplayer online roleplaying game (MMORPG), in which an efficient computer DM weaves the story, moderates the rolls, and presents the fantasy realm in rich graphics. MMORPGs are being refined and enhanced daily, and are multiplying like dice in a gamer's bag. Many believe these games are the natural state of evolution for RPGs: using computers and the Internet as a communications medium and arbiter for decisions, calculations, and statistical functions."
Wizards also has an article on Organized Play. This is my pet peeve and it is what I think maintains the hobby alive:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp? ... r20010623a
"Without OP, there might still be a few roleplaying clubs here and there, but virtually all gaming would take place in the private home among closed circles of friends. RPG campaigning would largely remain limited to isolated player groups in constant danger of disbanding if even one member were to drop out. Worse, D&D would be little more than a periodic activity engaged in for a few hours at a time and often forgotten between sessions, like visiting an in-character chat room on the Internet. Potential new players would have a lot more trouble locating a game, and different gaming groups would have less of a common experience, both in terms of mechanics and story. To a game as socially oriented as D&D, such isolation is poison in the long run, and the dispersal of each player group is a nail in the RPG business coffin. On the other hand, the D&D game gathers great strength from the growth of a player network, and the player network grows as the D&D game gathers strength. The symbiotic relationship that forms through organized play benefits everyone."
Some statistical facts from Wizards of the Coast's article, "The Role of Market Research"
This study collected information on 67,176 individuals and chose a sampling of 896 people to complete a more in-depth survey on their gaming interests and behavior. Among other findings, we learned that:
3% of the U.S. population between the ages of 12 and 35 (approximately 2.8 million people) play paper-based tabletop roleplaying games (TRPGs) at least once per month.
59% of monthly TRPG players (approximately 1.65 million) play Dungeons & Dragons at least once per month.
These first tidbits confirmed for us that we had a much larger customer base than we were actually reaching. With approximately 1.65 million D&D players out there, we should have been seeing much higher sales."
My conclusions:
Personally, at this point in time DnD although I don't want it to, is dying. It is suffering a similar slow decline as Warhammer 40K. I admit that with the release of 3rd Edition we saw the massive increase of DnD sales and interest. But I feel that short spurt is slowly residing again. The Organized Play and Metagamming evident in such genres as MMORPG's and CG's is everso increasing. The cost of CRPG's is a fraction of the cost of PnP. Owning all of the Wizards of the Coast d20 products (with the exception of the Star Wars and Call of Cathul product lines) I have spent well over $300.00, easily, not including additional D20 supplements, printing costs (I print allot of my art for maps, characters, etc because I believe in using images and art to enhance the game), miniatures costs (well into the $200), and time spent developing my campaigns.
As a veteran Everquest player (3 years to this month) I hope to see the sales of the Everquest RPG go well. I also hope that the top RPG companies continue their dedicated support of the product line and that they not get haxed.
regards!
As a DM and somewhat-veteran PnPer, I will have to state that PnP gaming is dying from certain points of views.
I'll start with my opinions and views:
Of the 7 regular players in my ongoing campaign, only 2 managed to continue playing. 5 of them where drawn away to PC titles.
Their responses to their growing lack of interest were:
1. PC titles allowed them to stay at home, game, and have full control as to when to stop and give attention to their families, lives, etc.
2. PCs offer a 'fair ground'. What this means is there is no personal impartiality or political bias in the gaming environment. A PC is impartial, it doesn't know the difference between Joe and Mike. As a DM it is hard to provide a solid balanced un-biased experience. Someone will always feel they got shafted that session, or didn't receive what they deserve.
3. A PC offers a milestone hard-coded goal anyone can draw an allure from. What this means is; "I got a level 20th character in Morowind, the game that is so hard to get to that level because of blah, and blah, and blah". In a PnP game being any level doesn't hold the value and allure that a PC game enjoys. The value of an achievement in a PnP game is measured by the DM. One DM can make it easy for players to get to 20, while another can make it more difficult, but makes it easier to obtain unique items. This gives the comment "You are level 20 in So-n-So's game but so am I in such-n-such's game and it was harder".
4. Current technology and state of entertainment has instilled a sense in the public of visual splendor and special effects apeal. Some people made coments here and I agree with some of them. It is very hard for myself and other DM's to discribe the visual drama that a Color-Flux spell is engraving the image in the minds of a gamer, when they can see it in full 32bit color on their PC/DvD/Movie Screen.
5. The above goes together with technology and math. The math and mechanics of 3ed DnD for example can be overwhelming for some that prefer to have a PC do it in the background. Believe me, it can get daunting to insure that Billyjoe is making sure that on the charge he is:
+2 for charging
+1 because he has Weapon Focus, Longsword
+4 for his 18 Strength
+6 Base attack
...and +2 because he is flanking the orc on the side.
but wait, the orc is partially behind a rockface, so his ac goes
+2 partial cover
dexterity not lost because he is being flanked from the side
and no attack of oppertunity because Billyjoe charged in and attacked.
and thats DnD at its simplest form, lets not even get into the whole schpeil on partial actions, round equivalent actions, move equivalent actions, and mounted combat...
6. Time in today's world is so clogged up with everyday schedules that at most you see is one game a week (per campaign). Fireing up the PC and loading up an MP session of NWN takes a quarter of the time and preperation that it takes to conduct a PnP session. Now I understand regular gaming clubs (I will go into detail on those below) and how they have scheduled game nights, but these have taken a hit.
My personal facts on gamers and gaming clubs in the central California valley:
Of the 5 known gaming clubs (Area 51, The Little Generals, Game Preserve, Epic Worlds, Hobbytown);
Area 51 - closed
reason: Out of business (mismanagement)
The Little Generals - Closed, groups disbanded and occasionaly play 40K at Epic
reason: Out of business (mismanagement), groups lost interest, loss of members.
Gamers Unite - Closed to gaming groups, still sells D20 products.
reason: Bad rep with gamers, new focus of being a retail outlet over a gaming club.
Epic Worlds - Had 5+ ongoing Wheel of Time, Forgotten Realms, DnD and Vampire campaigns. Now only has one DnD campaign. Reason: More interest was given to Legend of the Five Rings playing card game. Bad rep with gamers and focus on being a retail outlet over a gaming club. Loss of gamers, groups disbanded, some occasionaly play WH40K and LotFR CG.
Other facts:
From Wizards of the Coast:
In her coment regarding graphic art assignments and commisioning artists for books Dawn Murin coments:
"because the rates for RPGs are not like they are for Magic: The Gathering. We just don't have the art budget. Our print runs are smaller, the sales aren't quite the same, and it's more expensive to print a book than cards. As a result, we just don't have as much money. So, there are artists I don't call on just because I know they'd be insulted. But for Deities and Demigods, I've been able to get some amazing people. Donato told me, 'I do the big jobs so I can do the little jobs like this one that I really want to do.'"
Lezlie Samuel on the article "Beyond the Gaming Table"
She coments on the aquisition of WoTC by Hasbro, the WoTC business projections and aspiring hopes for the new DnD, towards the end she states:
"With the assistance of Hasbro's many divisions, we hope to dissolve any negative perceptions about our brands so we can focus our efforts on making the products that D&D players want to have, even if they have long since abandoned the game stores. We'll bring them all back somehow, and a few more to boot!"
Wizards of the Coasts admits to the influence of both the Card gaming and Computer gaming. Of note is their article on computer RPG's titles "The Role of Computers in RPGs". Very interesting and being a DM I hope to see allot of WoTCs expressions being comited to.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp? ... r20011230a
One of the coments sumarizes some of my statements above:
"Many consumers primarily want to play in a prefabricated campaign that requires little or no preparation on their part. One type of computer product that fulfills this wish is the massively multiplayer online roleplaying game (MMORPG), in which an efficient computer DM weaves the story, moderates the rolls, and presents the fantasy realm in rich graphics. MMORPGs are being refined and enhanced daily, and are multiplying like dice in a gamer's bag. Many believe these games are the natural state of evolution for RPGs: using computers and the Internet as a communications medium and arbiter for decisions, calculations, and statistical functions."
Wizards also has an article on Organized Play. This is my pet peeve and it is what I think maintains the hobby alive:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp? ... r20010623a
"Without OP, there might still be a few roleplaying clubs here and there, but virtually all gaming would take place in the private home among closed circles of friends. RPG campaigning would largely remain limited to isolated player groups in constant danger of disbanding if even one member were to drop out. Worse, D&D would be little more than a periodic activity engaged in for a few hours at a time and often forgotten between sessions, like visiting an in-character chat room on the Internet. Potential new players would have a lot more trouble locating a game, and different gaming groups would have less of a common experience, both in terms of mechanics and story. To a game as socially oriented as D&D, such isolation is poison in the long run, and the dispersal of each player group is a nail in the RPG business coffin. On the other hand, the D&D game gathers great strength from the growth of a player network, and the player network grows as the D&D game gathers strength. The symbiotic relationship that forms through organized play benefits everyone."
Some statistical facts from Wizards of the Coast's article, "The Role of Market Research"
This study collected information on 67,176 individuals and chose a sampling of 896 people to complete a more in-depth survey on their gaming interests and behavior. Among other findings, we learned that:
3% of the U.S. population between the ages of 12 and 35 (approximately 2.8 million people) play paper-based tabletop roleplaying games (TRPGs) at least once per month.
59% of monthly TRPG players (approximately 1.65 million) play Dungeons & Dragons at least once per month.
These first tidbits confirmed for us that we had a much larger customer base than we were actually reaching. With approximately 1.65 million D&D players out there, we should have been seeing much higher sales."
My conclusions:
Personally, at this point in time DnD although I don't want it to, is dying. It is suffering a similar slow decline as Warhammer 40K. I admit that with the release of 3rd Edition we saw the massive increase of DnD sales and interest. But I feel that short spurt is slowly residing again. The Organized Play and Metagamming evident in such genres as MMORPG's and CG's is everso increasing. The cost of CRPG's is a fraction of the cost of PnP. Owning all of the Wizards of the Coast d20 products (with the exception of the Star Wars and Call of Cathul product lines) I have spent well over $300.00, easily, not including additional D20 supplements, printing costs (I print allot of my art for maps, characters, etc because I believe in using images and art to enhance the game), miniatures costs (well into the $200), and time spent developing my campaigns.
As a veteran Everquest player (3 years to this month) I hope to see the sales of the Everquest RPG go well. I also hope that the top RPG companies continue their dedicated support of the product line and that they not get haxed.
regards!