Thats the most comprehensive list I have ever seen.
The SYM Book Club
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Georgi
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It's far from new, but in the now-dead other book club thread, Fable suggested Jurgen by an author whose name I forget, which is available online. Most people probably won't have read it, so that might be a good choice?Originally posted by Gwalchmai
I have to agree with Georgi here. It might be nice to pick a book that was relatively new and unready my most people. It sounds like I am in the minority concerning Prachett books, and most of you are already well versed. Are there any new fantasy novels out there that have received good reviews? I’ll do some checking.
(@Fable if you wouldn't mind enlightening us on the author and where it can be found, that would be much appreciated
)Who, me?!?
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fable
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Cabell! Sure thing. His most popular (and infamous) novel Jurgen is at the following web address: http://docsouth.unc.edu/cabell/jurgen.html
This is a facsimile of a rare edition, for what that's worth. And now that you've got me started on Cabell, here are a few quotes:
This is from Jurgen, the beginning of the Chapter called Why Coth was Contradicted. Jurgen, our medieval French hero, liar and rake, has discovered that Hell, all its inhabitants and devils were created recently by a supernatural entity after the notions of Jurgen's own dead father, Coth. And it there, arriving in Hell in a wheelbarrow, that Jurgen discovers his dad's spirit:
Then Jurgen went back to Chorasma, where Coth, the son of Smoit and Steinvor, stood conscientiously in the midst of the largest and hottest flame he had been able to imagine, and rebuked the outworn devils who were tormenting him, because the tortures they inflicted were not adequate to the wickedness of Coth.
And Jurgen cried to his father: "The lewd fiend Cannagosta told you I was the Emperor of Noumaria, and I do not deny it even now. But do you not perceive I am likewise your son Jurgen?"
"Why, so it is," said Coth, "now that I look at the rascal. And how, Jurgen, did you become an emperor?"
"Oh, sir, and is this a place wherein to talk about mere earthly dignities? I am surprised your mind should still run upon these empty vanities even here in torment."
"But it is inadequate torment, Jurgen, such as does not salve my conscience. There is no justice in this place, and no way of getting justice. For these shiftless devils do not take seriously that which I did, and they merely pretend to punish me, and so my conscience stays unsatisfied."
"Well, but, father, I have talked with them, and they seem to think your crimes do not amount to much, after all."
Coth flew into one of his familiar rages. "I would have you know that I killed eight men in cold blood, and held five other men while they were being killed. I estimate the sum of such iniquity as ten and a half murders, and for these my conscience demands that I be punished."
"Ah, but, sir, that was fifty years or more ago, and these men would now be dead in any event, so you see it does not matter now."
"I went astray with women, with I do not know how many women."
Jurgen shook his head. "This is very shocking news for a son to receive, and you can imagine my feelings. None the less, sir, that also was fifty years ago, and nobody is bothering over it now."
"You jackanapes, I tell you that I swore and stole and forged and burned four houses and broke the Sabbath and was guilty of mayhem and spoke disrespectfully to my mother and worshipped a stone image in Porutsa. I tell you I shattered the whole Decalogue, time and again: I committed all the crimes that were ever heard of, and invented six new ones."
"Yes, sir," said Jurgen: "but, still, what does it matter if you did?"
"Oh, take away this son of mine!" cried Coth: "for he is his mother all over again; and though I was the vilest sinner that ever lived, I have not deserved to be plagued twice with such silly questions. And I demand that you loitering devils bring more fuel."
"Sir," said a panting little fiend, in the form of a tadpole with hairy arms and legs like a monkey's, as he ran up with four bundles of fa!gots, "we are doing the very best we can for your discomfort. But you damned have no consideration for us, and do not remember that we are on our feet day and night, waiting upon you," said the little devil, whimpering, as with his pitchfork he raked up the fire about Coth. "You do not even remember the upset condition of the country, on account of the war with Heaven, which makes it so hard for us to get you all the inconveniences of life. Instead, you lounge in your flames, and complain about the service, and Grandfather Satan punishes us, and it is not fair."
"I think, myself," said Jurgen, "you should be gentler with the boy."
That will give some idea of Cabell's sense of comedy between characters, at least. You may or may not like it, but Twain thought he was fantastic, and many of the foremost literary figures of the day went to court to demand that the ban on Jurgen in New York City (of all places) be lifted in 1917. And it was.
This is a facsimile of a rare edition, for what that's worth. And now that you've got me started on Cabell, here are a few quotes:
This is from Jurgen, the beginning of the Chapter called Why Coth was Contradicted. Jurgen, our medieval French hero, liar and rake, has discovered that Hell, all its inhabitants and devils were created recently by a supernatural entity after the notions of Jurgen's own dead father, Coth. And it there, arriving in Hell in a wheelbarrow, that Jurgen discovers his dad's spirit:
Then Jurgen went back to Chorasma, where Coth, the son of Smoit and Steinvor, stood conscientiously in the midst of the largest and hottest flame he had been able to imagine, and rebuked the outworn devils who were tormenting him, because the tortures they inflicted were not adequate to the wickedness of Coth.
And Jurgen cried to his father: "The lewd fiend Cannagosta told you I was the Emperor of Noumaria, and I do not deny it even now. But do you not perceive I am likewise your son Jurgen?"
"Why, so it is," said Coth, "now that I look at the rascal. And how, Jurgen, did you become an emperor?"
"Oh, sir, and is this a place wherein to talk about mere earthly dignities? I am surprised your mind should still run upon these empty vanities even here in torment."
"But it is inadequate torment, Jurgen, such as does not salve my conscience. There is no justice in this place, and no way of getting justice. For these shiftless devils do not take seriously that which I did, and they merely pretend to punish me, and so my conscience stays unsatisfied."
"Well, but, father, I have talked with them, and they seem to think your crimes do not amount to much, after all."
Coth flew into one of his familiar rages. "I would have you know that I killed eight men in cold blood, and held five other men while they were being killed. I estimate the sum of such iniquity as ten and a half murders, and for these my conscience demands that I be punished."
"Ah, but, sir, that was fifty years or more ago, and these men would now be dead in any event, so you see it does not matter now."
"I went astray with women, with I do not know how many women."
Jurgen shook his head. "This is very shocking news for a son to receive, and you can imagine my feelings. None the less, sir, that also was fifty years ago, and nobody is bothering over it now."
"You jackanapes, I tell you that I swore and stole and forged and burned four houses and broke the Sabbath and was guilty of mayhem and spoke disrespectfully to my mother and worshipped a stone image in Porutsa. I tell you I shattered the whole Decalogue, time and again: I committed all the crimes that were ever heard of, and invented six new ones."
"Yes, sir," said Jurgen: "but, still, what does it matter if you did?"
"Oh, take away this son of mine!" cried Coth: "for he is his mother all over again; and though I was the vilest sinner that ever lived, I have not deserved to be plagued twice with such silly questions. And I demand that you loitering devils bring more fuel."
"Sir," said a panting little fiend, in the form of a tadpole with hairy arms and legs like a monkey's, as he ran up with four bundles of fa!gots, "we are doing the very best we can for your discomfort. But you damned have no consideration for us, and do not remember that we are on our feet day and night, waiting upon you," said the little devil, whimpering, as with his pitchfork he raked up the fire about Coth. "You do not even remember the upset condition of the country, on account of the war with Heaven, which makes it so hard for us to get you all the inconveniences of life. Instead, you lounge in your flames, and complain about the service, and Grandfather Satan punishes us, and it is not fair."
"I think, myself," said Jurgen, "you should be gentler with the boy."
That will give some idea of Cabell's sense of comedy between characters, at least. You may or may not like it, but Twain thought he was fantastic, and many of the foremost literary figures of the day went to court to demand that the ban on Jurgen in New York City (of all places) be lifted in 1917. And it was.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
One has to ask what is the best book for discussion purposes? Should it be Thriller, maybe Crime or it could be non-fiction.
Is fantasy really the best genre to discuss?
@Mysteria, Moor**** ridiculous, well i never One thumbs up for Moor**** is that his books are very short, only running to a bout 150 pages usually
Personally i would avoid Eddings and Gemmell, they are pretty standard. Gemmel's Wolf in the Shadow is pretty good, some of his other work seems to have been more deadline driven than driven by inspiration.
Is fantasy really the best genre to discuss?
@Mysteria, Moor**** ridiculous, well i never
One thumbs up for Moor**** is that his books are very short, only running to a bout 150 pages usually Personally i would avoid Eddings and Gemmell, they are pretty standard. Gemmel's Wolf in the Shadow is pretty good, some of his other work seems to have been more deadline driven than driven by inspiration.
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
I am not even part of this club so i will not be trying to wrestle the intellectual control on what is chosen from anyoneOriginally posted by Tamerlane
Probably not, but Gwalchmai chose fantasy and I respect his decision. And Mysteria did go to the effort to write down all those authors.
However we are always open to suggestions Sleep.
, i was merely saying that there are better subjects than fantasy, as i was saying in my thread about Fantasy, it can be a little stale, some of the books Mysteria mentioned are slightly less stale (apparently) though it would a shame for this good idea to not work because of the book chosen Suggestions....well i am reading Night of the Hunter at the moment, that is good, it has historical significane as well due to it being of a time when corporal punishment was still widely used; so one could discuss that issue and it's significance. Purely an idea, not a suggestion, but you can see what i am suggesting?
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
Your first paragraph relates to an early post of mine somewhere in this thread. I stated I only read Pratchett and Tolkien. Reason being as you said, the fantasy genre is a bit stale.
Who is the author of Night Of The Hunter. If we end up reading Jurgen, I'll put the other on my "to do list". Still keeping an eye out for Duel.
Who is the author of Night Of The Hunter. If we end up reading Jurgen, I'll put the other on my "to do list". Still keeping an eye out for Duel.
!
That is my feeling, but if Gwally can reccommend a decent book that isn't stale then i guess my point is futileOriginally posted by Tamerlane
Your first paragraph relates to an early post of mine somewhere in this thread. I stated I only read Pratchett and Tolkien. Reason being as you said, the fantasy genre is a bit stale.
Davis Grubb. It might be worth watching the movie insteadPosted by Tammy
Get a taster and see what you think Robert Mitchum was in the film. Duel, yeah i was meaning to ask you about that I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
Yep, i will refrain but i had to do it once, you have a cool username BTW, which dynasty was he a leader of i forgetOriginally posted by Tamerlane
I see Georgi got to you too. Tammy
You mean I have to keep an eye out for two movies now. I have a huge video store two roads down from my place. Yet it feels like its on the other side of the world
Well they are not exactly X-Men it might take a while to find NotH, but it is worth it
(released in 1955 if that is any help )I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
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fable
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Two other fantasy writers whose works deserve reading: Lord Dunsany, and ER Eddison.
Edward Plunkett, Baron Dunsany, created that epical fantasy language for which Tolkien is so admired, in in the first two decades of the 20th century--roughly fifty years before Tolkien. He was enormously popular during that period. Consider this typical sentence from one of his novels:
"And now the sun had set, and all the colours of the world and heaven had held a festival with him, and slipped one by one away before the imminent approach of night. The parrots had all flown home to the jungle on either bank, the monkeys in rows in safety on high branches of the trees were silent and asleep, the fireflies in the deeps of the forest were going up and down, and the great stars came gleaming out to look on the face of Yann."
Pure Tolkien? No: pure Dunsany.
Dunsany also "recreated" the elves, who were either bedtime sprites for kids (talking in nauseating imitation babyspeech), or pixeish lesser creatures attached to the land, not unlike Shakespeare's Puck (or for that matter, Kipling's). Dunsany's elves were magical beings, keepers of the woodland, more related to air than earth, and in perennial distrust with humans. They were dextrous but not strong, superb archers, and users of magic.
There's a bit of Dunsany up on the web, if you know where to look. The short story collection, Book of Wonder (1912), which is out of print, can be found at http://www.sff.net/people/DoyleMacdonald/l_wonder.htm His short story, the Idle City, is at http://www.mindspring.com/~jimhenry/won ... lecity.htm There's a collection of short stories also up at http://literature.gothic.ru/eng/classic/dunkani/ (this being a Russian site, they spelled his title/name as Dunsani; the material is still under copyright, but who is going to sue a little Russian site?) This is later material, and some of it is inflected with Dunsany's growing sense of irony and satire at modern times. The Hashish Man and Chu-Bu and Sheemish are particularly attractive.
Another writer who is neglected today is E.R. Eddison. His first major work (and probably his best novel) was The Worm Ouroboros, written in 1922--again, years before Tolkien. His works move slower than Tolkien, but possess still more music in the language. They are inspired by Nordic, Norman, and Saxon legends, also by Shakespeare and his contemporary playwrights: epic tales of men and women larger than life, fighting extraordinary battles, indulging in vast treacheries, casting spells from blackened towers that summon creatures as vast and deep as the night.
Here's an example of Eddison's prose. Note, again, that this was a full generation before Tolkien:
"Now they rose up and took their weapons and muffled themselves in their great campaigning-cloaks and went forth with torch-bearers to walk through the lines, as every night ere he went to rest it was Spitfire's wont to do, visiting his captains and setting the guard. The night was without a star. The wet sands gleamed with the lights of Owlswick Castle, and from the castle came by fits the sound of feasting heard above the wash and moan of the sullen sleepless sea."
This is so beautifully written from the standpoint of rhythm that it could be quoted in a class on English, and is as good as anything in this line that Shakespeare ever wrote.
Dunsany's language may be epic, but his character's doings are intimate. Eddison conceives things always on the grand scale, even when he's concentrating on the interrelationship of just a couple of people; and each scene passes as though it were being told by the greatest of bardic skalds. There is little that's "homey" in Eddison, unlike Tolkien. Eddison wasn't writing for his children, though he shared Tolkien's hatred for modern times. Instead, he was writing for those who yearned for great fantasy, told with a sense of language as few could match, and none could surpass. There are flaws in his work, but fewer in The Worm Ouroboros than in its later companions. It's magnificent stuff, IMO.
Edward Plunkett, Baron Dunsany, created that epical fantasy language for which Tolkien is so admired, in in the first two decades of the 20th century--roughly fifty years before Tolkien. He was enormously popular during that period. Consider this typical sentence from one of his novels:
"And now the sun had set, and all the colours of the world and heaven had held a festival with him, and slipped one by one away before the imminent approach of night. The parrots had all flown home to the jungle on either bank, the monkeys in rows in safety on high branches of the trees were silent and asleep, the fireflies in the deeps of the forest were going up and down, and the great stars came gleaming out to look on the face of Yann."
Pure Tolkien? No: pure Dunsany.
Dunsany also "recreated" the elves, who were either bedtime sprites for kids (talking in nauseating imitation babyspeech), or pixeish lesser creatures attached to the land, not unlike Shakespeare's Puck (or for that matter, Kipling's). Dunsany's elves were magical beings, keepers of the woodland, more related to air than earth, and in perennial distrust with humans. They were dextrous but not strong, superb archers, and users of magic.
There's a bit of Dunsany up on the web, if you know where to look. The short story collection, Book of Wonder (1912), which is out of print, can be found at http://www.sff.net/people/DoyleMacdonald/l_wonder.htm His short story, the Idle City, is at http://www.mindspring.com/~jimhenry/won ... lecity.htm There's a collection of short stories also up at http://literature.gothic.ru/eng/classic/dunkani/ (this being a Russian site, they spelled his title/name as Dunsani; the material is still under copyright, but who is going to sue a little Russian site?) This is later material, and some of it is inflected with Dunsany's growing sense of irony and satire at modern times. The Hashish Man and Chu-Bu and Sheemish are particularly attractive.
Another writer who is neglected today is E.R. Eddison. His first major work (and probably his best novel) was The Worm Ouroboros, written in 1922--again, years before Tolkien. His works move slower than Tolkien, but possess still more music in the language. They are inspired by Nordic, Norman, and Saxon legends, also by Shakespeare and his contemporary playwrights: epic tales of men and women larger than life, fighting extraordinary battles, indulging in vast treacheries, casting spells from blackened towers that summon creatures as vast and deep as the night.
Here's an example of Eddison's prose. Note, again, that this was a full generation before Tolkien:
"Now they rose up and took their weapons and muffled themselves in their great campaigning-cloaks and went forth with torch-bearers to walk through the lines, as every night ere he went to rest it was Spitfire's wont to do, visiting his captains and setting the guard. The night was without a star. The wet sands gleamed with the lights of Owlswick Castle, and from the castle came by fits the sound of feasting heard above the wash and moan of the sullen sleepless sea."
This is so beautifully written from the standpoint of rhythm that it could be quoted in a class on English, and is as good as anything in this line that Shakespeare ever wrote.
Dunsany's language may be epic, but his character's doings are intimate. Eddison conceives things always on the grand scale, even when he's concentrating on the interrelationship of just a couple of people; and each scene passes as though it were being told by the greatest of bardic skalds. There is little that's "homey" in Eddison, unlike Tolkien. Eddison wasn't writing for his children, though he shared Tolkien's hatred for modern times. Instead, he was writing for those who yearned for great fantasy, told with a sense of language as few could match, and none could surpass. There are flaws in his work, but fewer in The Worm Ouroboros than in its later companions. It's magnificent stuff, IMO.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Gwalchmai
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Is fantasy the best genre to discuss? Probably not.
But fantasy games are what brought most of us here, and most discussions about literature here on SYM seem to stem from Fantasy: Was Tolkin the best? Is Salvatore a hack? Is Fantasy stale?
I, myself, have not read that much fantasy. I was thinking that a book club here might cause me to actually read more. I also know that I have always benefited from being able to talk about books and movies with my friends (*sigh* I miss the good old college days), and this might prove a good experience for me again here on SYM.
I was thinking also that the Fantasy genre surely can’t be as dead as everyone says it is. There must be writers out there producing good stuff, but aren’t being recognized simply because they don’t have the mass-market appeal. I hope to look into this. I suspect that good stories with unusual themes are not in as high a demand as the same old hero-kills-a-dragon stories. If we were to read something relatively new, good, and unusual, we would be doing our part to buck the trend, and send a small message to the marketing gurus.
Until I can research this, I think it would be fine to read Fable’s Jergen suggestion. It doesn’t look too thick for my dim mind to handle , and the historical perspective would be good. That would be my vote. It has the added benefit of being available on the net.
But fantasy games are what brought most of us here, and most discussions about literature here on SYM seem to stem from Fantasy: Was Tolkin the best? Is Salvatore a hack? Is Fantasy stale?
I, myself, have not read that much fantasy. I was thinking that a book club here might cause me to actually read more. I also know that I have always benefited from being able to talk about books and movies with my friends (*sigh* I miss the good old college days), and this might prove a good experience for me again here on SYM.
I was thinking also that the Fantasy genre surely can’t be as dead as everyone says it is. There must be writers out there producing good stuff, but aren’t being recognized simply because they don’t have the mass-market appeal. I hope to look into this. I suspect that good stories with unusual themes are not in as high a demand as the same old hero-kills-a-dragon stories. If we were to read something relatively new, good, and unusual, we would be doing our part to buck the trend, and send a small message to the marketing gurus.
Until I can research this, I think it would be fine to read Fable’s Jergen suggestion. It doesn’t look too thick for my dim mind to handle
, and the historical perspective would be good. That would be my vote. It has the added benefit of being available on the net. That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
Jurgen it is , then.
"Do or do not. There is no try. " ~Yoda
No worries,
Beldin
"Do or do not. There is no try. " ~Yoda
No worries,
Beldin
Proud driver and SLURRite Linkmaster of the Rolling Thunder ™
Famous Last Words:
"You can't kill me 'cause I've got magic armoraaaaargh !"
"They're only kobolds!"
So he kills kittens? Nothing to fear about that. (CM about Foul on SYM)
"Hey Beldin ! I don't like your face !"
"Nevermore."
Famous Last Words:
"You can't kill me 'cause I've got magic armoraaaaargh !"
"They're only kobolds!"
So he kills kittens? Nothing to fear about that. (CM about Foul on SYM)
"Hey Beldin ! I don't like your face !"
"Nevermore."
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Ned Flanders
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If anyone out there is a war history buff, Howard Blum has a new book out called 'The Brigade'. I just started it but you cant go wrong with Blum. His latest focuses on the Jews and their recovery of a post-Nazi Germany.
Crush enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women.
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VoodooDali
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Gwally, I think the idea of a book club is a good one. As on the other thread about it, I predicted no one would ever agree on a book to read.
This is what I think. I trust your judgement. Why don't you pick out a book, we'll read and discuss it. I think that will weed out quite a few people who don't have the time or inclination for it. Then, in time each "regular" will get to pick a book that the others will read. I think everyone would be more into this if they knew they'd get to pick a book eventually.
This is what I think. I trust your judgement. Why don't you pick out a book, we'll read and discuss it. I think that will weed out quite a few people who don't have the time or inclination for it. Then, in time each "regular" will get to pick a book that the others will read. I think everyone would be more into this if they knew they'd get to pick a book eventually.
“I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity.” - Edgar Allen Poe