Q&A on Christianity

Ode to a Grasshopper · Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:14 am

Whilst I'm going to avoid posting any questions/comments so as to be sure to avoid offending anyone or getting in trouble, I will say this: good idea for a thread @M&M.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 1:59 am

Originally posted by nael
I think most people have already seen your interpretation of christianity, and you are hardly representative of christianity as a whole.

Neither is the Pope.

Evangelicals, by the way, comprise one of the largest voting blocs in the American electorate. At 20% (or about 40 million people), it's not as "un-representative" as you might think, as Bill Clinton found out the hard way back in '94.

... there's a chance you would answer the questions objectively, but there simply aren't any universal truths that can be answered about christianity as a whole to allow for objective answers.

How can you be sure about this?

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:26 am

Originally posted by EMINEM
Evangelicals, by the way, comprise one of the largest voting blocs in the American electorate. At 20% (or about 40 million people), it's not as "un-representative" as you might think, as Bill Clinton found out the hard way back in '94.

I don't think that is what he was talking about, EMINEM. There are about 2 billion people in the world who claim to be Christian. No one person can represent everyone who claims to be Christian. I think it would be a good idea, EMINEM, to give a brief descrip/background of the specific "type" of Christianity you claim to be a part of.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:40 am

Waverly, I'm still mad at you about that horridly idiotic thing you did in the marriage thread and if you do something like that again, I will go to Buck about it.

Go for it dear. Maybe you can explain this excerpt from Numbers to me first. I’ll quote lots of it so you have your context. Note this is Moses relating the very word of God. I wonder what they are up to...

11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man’s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman’s hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

CM · Post by CM » Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:09 am

One thing i have never fully understood is the concept of the holy ghost and the other 2 err...i am not sure what you would call them.
Could anybody explain the idea of the whole belief?

nael · Post by **nael** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 4:18 am

Originally posted by CM
One thing i have never fully understood is the concept of the holy ghost and the other 2 err...i am not sure what you would call them.
Could anybody explain the idea of the whole belief?

the trinity is focused on a lot more in certain christian religions than others. the holy spirit was born on pentecost, when the crowd became overwhelmed with the spirit of the lord and began speaking in strange languages which everyone universally understood.
the father and son parts of the trinity are obviously god and jesus christ. the idea, as best as i understand it, is that all three are connected but are sightly different.
i dunno, i'm a bit sketchy on this one myself.
to quote eddie izzard, "Jesus Christ!"
"don't take my name in vain dad!"
"jizzy chrizzy!
"and don't call me jizzy chrizzy!"
"where is that holy ghost?"
"he's over there with a sheet over his head"
"oooohhhh....i'm the holy ghost!!!!"

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:42 am

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

I don't think that is what he was talking about, EMINEM. There are about 2 billion people in the world who claim to be Christian. No one person can represent everyone who claims to be Christian. I think it would be a good idea, EMINEM, to give a brief descrip/background of the specific "type" of Christianity you claim to be a part of.

I know - that's why I first made the quip about the Pope. The point I was trying to make is that I'm far from being alone in my views, politically incorrect they may be.

Oy yeah, according to the "Discover Your Religion" test, I'm a Conservative Protestant, like you.

Trym · Post by **Trym** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:14 am

Some facts on the doctrine of papal infallibility:

The pope is only considered infallible if he speaks ex cathedra on basic dogmatic questions. I think this has occured twice since the 1st Vaticanum: 1. on the virginity of Mary 2. Mary never comitted a sin.

Unfortunately this is almost generally ignored in public discourse.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:36 am

Originally posted by EMINEM
Oy yeah, according to the "Discover Your Religion" test, I'm a Conservative Protestant, like you.

I believe Salior Saturn has actually told us the denomination of the church she currently attends. Could you perhaps tell us what denomination and church you belong to? This will help us all understand what perspective you're coming from. It's up to you, but it would help.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:56 pm

Originally posted by Aegis
I think questions that deal more with political workins of Christianity are more suitable here, as the bible and faith itself is something that is interpreted differently by mnay people. With this in mind, I'm going to try and stay away from the theological quandries (101 ), and ask a politcal one. DO you, as a christian, believe that the pope should be considered infallible, even in his waning years, and degradedation of health?

No human being is infallible, not even the Pope, as much as admire John Paul.

The Church is infallible, insofar as it remains faithful to Scripture.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 1:38 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn
I'm sorry to be nitpicky, CE; but if you look in the marriage thread, you'll see I already commented on this. Waverly took things out of context in the most horrid way possible. The example you just listed, was not saying to eat your children. The city was under siege and famine and a lady tricked another desperate lady into killing and cooking her own son by promising that they would eat her son the next day, but then she hid her son. This was not at all portrayed as a good thing. Read the entire passage, which I posted in the marriage thread, IIRC.

I left the marriage thread shortly after Waverly's post, I must have missed your comment of this. I'll check it our now.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:10 pm

@SailorS, nael, Aaragon et al wasn't this eminems thread on Q&A

@Eminem, why are there over 2000 denominations of the Christian church?

Aragorn Returns · Post by **Aragorn Returns** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:44 pm

since M&M has allready said several things that i completely disagree with i've decided to stay completely out of this thread from here on out, it's all yours M.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:05 pm

Originally posted by Waverly
Go for it dear. Maybe you can explain this excerpt from Numbers to me first. I’ll quote lots of it so you have your context. Note this is Moses relating the very word of God. I wonder what they are up to...

11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man’s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman’s hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

Sorry, Wavy-san, but I'm not explaining any scripture until you stop using the KJV.

And so you know what I have against the KJV, I'll tell you.

1.)It's an older, out of date, form of English that is difficult to comprehend, especially when you don't use it daily.

2.)It's translated from newer manuscripts, whereas the NIV, NAS, NLT, etc, are translated from older manuscripts.

Aragorn Returns · Post by **Aragorn Returns** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:07 pm

the KJV is 1.) the most widespread and used version of the bible so it would be the obvious choice for posting purposes and 2.) most scholars and religious experts believe it to be the most accurate. (guess i changed my mind about staying out of this thread)

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:10 pm

Originally posted by Aragorn Returns
since M&M has allready said several things that i completely disagree with i've decided to stay completely out of this thread from here on out, it's all yours M.

I'm surprised to see you leave. What have I said that you completely disagree with? I don't think I've written anything really controversial thus far, and I'm exercising extra care in my selection of words, so as not to turn anyone off from this thread, even if they don't agree with me.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:12 pm

Originally posted by CM
One thing i have never fully understood is the concept of the holy ghost and the other 2 err...i am not sure what you would call them.
Could anybody explain the idea of the whole belief?

The Trinity

God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Three in one. One in three.

They are seperate, sorta. They're not individual gods. Christians believe in only one God. We believe that Jesus is the Son of God and is God.

In the beginning, the Word was with God and the Word was God. ~John 1:1

These easiest way I can think of to explain it is to use an example of something from a TV show. If you don't watch the show, it might not make as much sense, but here goes.

On the show Andromeda, there is a starship called "Andromeda Ascendant." The ship has an AI with the same name, though called Rommie for short.

Rommie's AI is within the mainframe of the computer and, technically, is the ship. This "incarnation" of the AI appears on viewscreens from time to time. The next 'incarnation' is a hologram. Then there's the android. They are all the same AI, but in three forms. However, they are also different. They've even been known to argue with each other. They are one and the same, yet three and different.

Is this making any sense to anyone besides me?

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:14 pm

Originally posted by EMINEM
Oy yeah, according to the "Discover Your Religion" test, I'm a Conservative Protestant, like you.

It also said I was a Liberal Protestant.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:19 pm

Originally posted by Aragorn Returns
the KJV is 1.) the most widespread and used version of the bible so it would be the obvious choice for posting purposes and 2.) most scholars and religious experts believe it to be the most accurate. (guess i changed my mind about staying out of this thread)

Actually, that is becoming less and less true.

As for the "scholars" and "religious experts" thinking it to be the most accurate, they are rather mistaken.

As I said, the KJV is translated from newer manuscripts. The NIV, etc, is translated from older manuscripts.

The manuscripts used for the KJV are, in other words, copies of the manuscripts used for NIV.

It is a fact that older manuscripts would be more accurate than newer manuscripts, whether dealing with the Bible or some other literary work.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 10:25 pm

Originally posted by Aragorn Returns
the KJV is 1.) the most widespread and used version of the bible so it would be the obvious choice for posting purposes and 2.) most scholars and religious experts believe it to be the most accurate. (guess i changed my mind about staying out of this thread)

The fact that the KJV is more widely used doesn't necessarily mean it's the most accurate translation available. Don't get me wrong. Second to Shakespeare's tragedies, I think the KJV is England's greatest literary achievment. IMO, the most accurate translation is the New American Standard Version, published in the early 20th Century. Consider one example: The KJV translates the sixth commandment as "Thou shalt not kill." The NASV translates the sixth commandment as "Thou shalt not murder." There is a difference between the act of killing, and the act of murder, and I think the NASV better represents the original Hebrew construction since not all killing (killing in self-defense for example) can be construed as sinful.