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@Yshania: Don't tell me you keep the link in your "favourite"...

My friend told me the morris dancing is very "artificial". It's kind of a re-creation in the 50s or so from the "tradition" which had been dead for quite some time. It's big in both Oxford and Cambridge, apparently.

Oh, I'm going to Oxford on Monday, BTW.

since morris dancing is largely the preserve of middle aged bearded mathematicians (or similar academic professions), it's not surprising that the main old-fashioned university towns are the axis of morissment

Originally posted by fable
Sounds rather like one of those "substitution holidays" that ethnographers tell us are common, as cultures move from one religion to another, or to a secular basis. Oct. 31st (referred to by many names; in Celtic tradition, Samhain) was originally celebrated by sacrificing a captured enemy, and in later years by the sacrifice of a vegetative substitute--the Wicker Man, who was burnt as the "solar or oak" half of the year gave way to the "ivy" half: the waxing, to the waning.

No no, that's Halloween... but I think in the US that's celebrated to a much greater extent than over here, so maybe we make up for it on Guy Fawkes' Night Did remind me of The Wicker Man... that's why I thought it might seem a rather barbaric tradition to people who aren't used to it

@Minerva so you liked the morris dancing so much you're going to Oxford to find some more?

Marmite bad, Bovril good.

Originally posted by Georgi


No no, that's Halloween... but I think in the US that's celebrated to a much greater extent than over here, so maybe we make up for it on Guy Fawkes' Night Did remind me of The Wicker Man... that's why I thought it might seem a rather barbaric tradition to people who aren't used to it

That's exactly why I likened Guy Fawkes' Night to Samhain instead of Halloween, which is nothing more than an excuse for merchandising. It almost feels as though the tradition of the burning man was tied to Guy Fawkes' Day for the still largely rural, traditional populace to find a legal way to revive some "old religion" habits at an appropriate time of the year, in a way that an accepted Church couldn't complain. Quite possible, too, since the Churches of the period complained about stubborn pockets of non-Christian resistance in the countryside. In any case, it's just an idea.

it's true though. even christmas was moved (i don't know by how much) by the early christian church so that the happy heathens could continue to dance around their bonfires at midwinter. it may have only been by a few days, but the widespread celebration of the winter solstice meant that the new festival could be celebrated at the same time, and, judging by some of the enduring traditions, in a similar way.

Originally posted by fable
That's exactly why I likened Guy Fawkes' Night to Samhain instead of Halloween, which is nothing more than an excuse for merchandising. It almost feels as though the tradition of the burning man was tied to Guy Fawkes' Day for the still largely rural, traditional populace to find a legal way to revive some "old religion" habits at an appropriate time of the year, in a way that an accepted Church couldn't complain. Quite possible, too, since the Churches of the period complained about stubborn pockets of non-Christian resistance in the countryside. In any case, it's just an idea.

I was going to say that maybe the 17th century was quite late to be substituting for old pagan festivals, but having consulted ol' Jim Frazer ( ) it seems that various examples of effigy-burning in Britain were still going on in the 19th century, so maybe it's not such a crazy idea after all.

Does seem rather curious though - since Samhain was so tenuously Christianised as Halloween, presumably to allow the continuation of the popular festivities, it seems odd that the bonfire traditions related to Samhain didn't continue under the guise of Halloween.

@Robnark yep, most Christian festivals have pagan precedents. Go figure

Originally posted by Georgi
I was going to say that maybe the 17th century was quite late to be substituting for old pagan festivals, but having consulted ol' Jim Frazer ( ) it seems that various examples of effigy-burning in Britain were still going on in the 19th century, so maybe it's not such a crazy idea after all.

Of course not! I may be silly, but I'm not crazy.

Does seem rather curious though - since Samhain was so tenuously Christianised as Halloween, presumably to allow the continuation of the popular festivities, it seems odd that the bonfire traditions related to Samhain didn't continue under the guise of Halloween.

One potentially good reason is that Halloween, St Hallow's Eve, has no such tradition of a burning Wicker Man associated with it, so introducting that element would be asking for trouble with the Church and the authorities. Guy Fawkes had a readymade excuse in place.

Originally posted by fable
Of course not! I may be silly, but I'm not crazy.

It's only a matter of time

One potentially good reason is that Halloween, St Hallow's Eve, has no such tradition of a burning Wicker Man associated with it, so introducting that element would be asking for trouble with the Church and the authorities. Guy Fawkes had a readymade excuse in place.

Ah, but they managed to Christianize so many other blatently pagan rituals, you'd have thought they could have invented some kind of an excuse for associating a wicker man with Halloween

No Guy Fawkes' Night in the US--I suspect 99.9% of the population has never heard of him.

hmm, never heard of him.

ah, samhain, good band

Is there not some wierd Spanish festiville where they build huge (30-40 foot high), surreal sculptures out of paper, parade them around town for a day and have a huge bonfire at night and burn the lot of them? Or am I thinking of a compleatly different country?

ya know, there are some really odd customs in chrisianity. really, easter what's that about? well, after extensive research i've found that the chocolate eggs come from the color of the cross that jesus was nailed to. yes, eddie izzard taught me that one.

Originally posted by Aragorn Returns
easter what's that about?

Hijacking pagan festivals. Y'know, just for a change...

nope, the chocolate eggs are to remind us about jesus dying on the cross, because the cross was brown. and the bunnies all come from calvary hill, there were thousands of bunnies living on calvary hill when christ was crucified.