Bard Spellcasting

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Tue May 07, 2002 6:27 am

Originally posted by Sojourner
IMO, bards should have been handled more like they are in IWD:HoW - where they have more than one bard song and can cast spells up to the eighth level.

I totlay agree, almost all my IWD party's had bards, they make great backup mages in the game.
In BG(II) they are a lot weaker

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue May 07, 2002 6:32 am

Originally posted by GNGSpam
So your sole justification for a Bard is that he will be a higher level for his level 6 spells? Hmmm

Look its not tough

What does a bard do
Pickpocket
Lore
Mage spells to level 6
Some fighting skills

Compare this to any number of dual/multi class mage/fighter variants.

The mage/fighter has
More mage spells
Higher level (beyond 6) of mage spells
Better fighting skills
More hitpoints

Yes a Bard is a higher level allowing cumlative spells to reach a higher level, but ONLY level 6 spells and below. Lack of access tot he higher levels makes him significantly less powerful then a Mage.

Plus he isnt as good as a mage/fighter in nearly any shape or form.

In essence the sole thing a Bard has up on any mage/fighter combo is pickpocketing (nothing of value unless you cheat and get double Gaxx and double Ring of the Ram) and Lore (pointless with glasses of Identification, and silly to squibble over 100 gold)

Want to roleplay one? More power to you. But please please please dont pretend that they are in any shape or form a powerful class. If Bards could progress past level 6, itd be a different story.

No GNGSpam, that is not my "sole justification for a Bard". I don't have to justify anything to you. Play the game as you see fit and I'll do likewise. Instead, that was the reason why a Bard on Tenser's would be better than a Mage/Sorceror or Fighter (were it possible) on Tenser's. What I have said though, if you read my first post on this thread, is that Bards are excellent teamplayers and fun to play because they get a bit of everything. Examples of this would be:

1) Ability to use all weapons
2) Mage spells, including a Familiar
3) Pick Pockets
4) High Lore
5) Bard Song (The Enhanced Bard Song or the high level Skald Song can, IMO, be of good help to the entire party)
6) Use Any Item (ToB only)
7) Lay traps (ToB only)
8) Levels up fast

I've also said that Bards aren't worthless in a battle.

"Look its not tough"? Look, I'm not stupid, just of a different opinion than you. I've never said anything about a Bard being the ultimate choise for a powergamer. And I humbly thank you for allowing me to continue my roleplaying.

Forgot one thing: Pick Pocket is, in addition to actually picking pockets, also useful for stealing from merchants. Bernard, the thief upstairs of Gaelan and especially one of the merchants in Trademeet have some nice equipement.

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Tue May 07, 2002 8:43 am

@Astafas
You got me (sort of) convinced, I will try a bard soon.
Witch kit do you recommand?

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Tue May 07, 2002 9:04 am

There is really only one kit worth playing if you have ToB and that is Blade! Ofcourse Haerdalis is a blade but if you dont want to have him.
Another huge advantage to playing a bard is that the fast levelling means that party members you pick up will be of high level also.
If you take a blade and play through Irenicus dungeon with Imoen you will Probably be level 11 when you get out. Steel a few scrolls and you are level 12 when you have completed the circus and pick up Aerie who will then be of a very high level compared to when a f/m multi with the same experience picks her up.
This way you could get off to a real head start.
Pickpocket is really useful IMO, unless you just clua in all the gold you want ofcourse.
Finally i would like to say that I like all classes except wizardslayers

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue May 07, 2002 9:05 am

Originally posted by Stilgar
@Astafas
You got me (sort of) convinced, I will try a bard soon.
Witch kit do you recommand?

Scared you into obediance, did I, friend Stilgar?

I was a huge fan of the Skald until ToB made the kit (more or less) redundant with the Enhanced Bard Song. Why should you choose a Skald when you'll eventually get their greatest advantage anyway? Still, it's a long way to ToB...

The Jester's song ain't very effective later in the game, so I wouldn't recommend it. (I personally don't like the Jester RPG-wise anyway. However, I believe Jan would fit perfectly as a Jester, should you like to hack NPCs...). A cheesy tactic with the Jester is to walk around invisible while singing.

No, the Blade is the way to go if you want a kit. You can live with the disadvantages and you get the very nice offensive/defensive spins as well as the possibility to put *** into dual wielding (won't get any of them free as for the Ranger, though).

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue May 07, 2002 10:13 am

Originally posted by UncleScratchy

That's an awful lot of work just to get the guy up to decent fighting ability. Then you have to rest so you can face the next fight. I've tried playing with all sorts of bard kits and find the class disappointing overall. Plus I was forever resurrecting them as they tend to be the first to die. Definitely a challenging class to play - about a 9.8 on the Suck-O-Meter.

Well, now you're exaggerating a bit. You could be more or less untouchable in at least a couple of fights before needing to rest. Then you could just hang back, firing off a Bow or X-Bow or using Staves and leftover spells, sing... Basically, you're not worse off than any thief. But I do of course realise that Bards can't be for everyone - I'm not on a crusade here.

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Tue May 07, 2002 10:14 am

Hey look man, play whatever the hell you want, that wasnt my point at all if you had read my post. What I said was simple, dont pretend a Bard is a powerful class in the least, its easily the weakest class in BG2

Schwoebli · Post by **Schwoebli** » Tue May 07, 2002 11:24 am

blades are the best tanks. i mean it seriously. just put a well equiped blade near the entrance of sendai's enclave where the endless mass of dwarfes attack you (you dont even have to use magic). behind the blade you can let you weak chars camp and while doing so kill with your fighters the dwarfs. the dwarfs will never reach your weak chars because they cant pass past your low ac blade. don't forget to use improved bard song! i did about 2 lvl ups which each char there. it was just to easy. thx to the improved bard song the dwarfs could also almost never hit one of my fighters.

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Tue May 07, 2002 11:57 am

Bards? Tanks? Only with about 4 or 5 buff spells specifically on him including Tensers, Stonesking, Blur, etc

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue May 07, 2002 12:20 pm

Originally posted by GNGSpam
Hey look man, play whatever the hell you want, that wasnt my point at all if you had read my post. What I said was simple, dont pretend a Bard is a powerful class in the least, its easily the weakest class in BG2

Could this, per chance, be your personal opinion in this matter, GNGSpam? Also, could you please try to be a touch nicer in your way of expressing yourself?

Schwoebli · Post by **Schwoebli** » Tue May 07, 2002 12:46 pm

@GNGSpam
blades are the best tanks if used right. even without magic spells. think of uai and enhanced bard song. try it out. make a shield wielding blade and give him all your low ac stuff. the blade's ac will be significantly lower than the second lowest in the group. yes he isn't a good fighter (at least mine) BUT he ll make all your other party members stronger AND is an excellent tank.

GNGSpam · Post by **GNGSpam** » Tue May 07, 2002 3:51 pm

Astafas, its not opinion. From a game mechanics perspective Bards dont match up with Figher/Mage. Since they have relatively the same purpose, when deciding, hmm, are Bards any good? The answer is always "No" because the Fighter/Mage (dual or multi-classed) is always superior.

Now, like I said, if you want to roleplay a bard, thats fine, then youre not deciding which one is more powerful. However when the question is "Are Bards any good?" the answer is "not compared to a fighter/mage".

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Tue May 07, 2002 4:02 pm

I think a bard should be able to backstab for a low amount, that would make it a little more versatile.

@Astafas, ok, i'll try the blade, but I better like it or else.................i'll be playing with bunbun until neverwinter comes out

Any equipment/party sugestions that fit well with the blade?

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Tue May 07, 2002 7:29 pm

Blade vs multi fighter/mage.
Within the cap of SoA the two classes are almost identical except that the f/m get 1 and later 1½ attacks extra. The blade counters this with offensive spin. The higher caster level, pickpocket and high lore makes the blade the "better" character until the f/m have access to level 7 spells.
Towards the cap of ToB obviously the f/m is more powerful both with magic and in melee but the blade has UAI plus various useful abilities that come in handy from time to time. The enhanced bard song is extremely useful if you like to use summons or have many fighters in your party. Enhanced bard song works over the whole map and always works unlike high level skald song. If you have 4 or more fighting types(fighters and summons) inn anny battle the bard will really add more to the battle singing then fighting. Also it is possible to hit or cast a spell while singing since the effects of the song last for about a round after you stop.
So my point is, the Blade is not as good as the f/m at fighting but since the blade can soloplay the game without major problems it is a good enough character to not die all the time as someone said and in a large party a very useful character.
Stilgar...
Two weapon fighting is a must.
Weapons-- Katana, Scimitar(belm-scarlet ninja to with UAI), short sword-kundane... after a while you will be proficient in most one handed weapons.
Various Harps---very useful
Wands
Party I would recommend not taking Minsc and jaheira along because that way you will be a higher level when picking up your first NPC... start getting NPC's once you reach level 13- you hould be there quickly by reading scrolls that you steal.
Then get any party really.
I had a very easy time using:
Me Blade
Valygar
Mazzy
Anomen
Keldorn/Sarevok
Yoshimo/Imoen
Have fun!

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Wed May 08, 2002 1:18 am

Originally posted by GNGSpam
Astafas, its not opinion. From a game mechanics perspective Bards dont match up with Figher/Mage. Since they have relatively the same purpose, when deciding, hmm, are Bards any good? The answer is always "No" because the Fighter/Mage (dual or multi-classed) is always superior.

Now, like I said, if you want to roleplay a bard, thats fine, then youre not deciding which one is more powerful. However when the question is "Are Bards any good?" the answer is "not compared to a fighter/mage".

You're the only one talking about "superior" and "powerful". The fact that one class may be more "powerful" than another doesn't make the latter worthless. I really fail to see your logic here. Also, the terms "superior" and "powerful" are rather relative. So should you necessarily continue to compare the two, at least be fair and accept that some players may value the Enhanced Bard Song, UAI, Lay Traps, High Lore and the faster XP table. I again thank you for allowing me to roleplay my Bards.