Neverwinter Nights: pretty much a dissapointment

Trix · Post by **Trix** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:43 pm

Biowares record with CRPGs ... BG, BG2, PS:T, IWD

FYI, while PS:T and IWD used (modified versions of) the Infinity Engine, BioWare did not write those games. They were made by Black Isle Studios, the RPG division of Interplay.

DaringCommander11 · Post by **DaringCommander11** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:45 pm

Needs less traps

This is just my 2 cents but traps are too powerful. I played for about 8 hours at a friends (my computer can't take it

) and I used a cleric and it became very apperent that I would need to abandone heavy armor take a level or two of rogue or traps would chew me up. The rogue henchmen is incompetent (do they level up?). When I played multiplayer with a friend as a rogue the game was great. The game should adapt to the class being played in single player (don't flame me for that.)

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:53 pm

Henchmen level when you do. Just speak to 'em about experience if they don't immediately gain levels. Of course, you can't control their skills and feats, though.

Elementus · Post by **Elementus** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:39 pm

I can see how you made your opinion, but I have a few things to mention.
The game may have lots of loading, but this game started production some time ago, but it runs smoothly for the most part. The henchman, yes, I see why people are a little upset, or dissapointed, but think of this. NWN was not made to be like the others, the henchman have a mind of their own, you are not their mind. You payed them to accompany you, they can do for the most part what they wish, you are not some all powerful person. The henchman can for the most part think for them selves, you can give them simple commands and such, but usually that is all that is needed. You can still plan out strategys, you just have to alter them. You cant expect to use the same old strategy on every RPG that is from the same people who bring us BG. They had an idea different from most things, to let you control story lines, and they did. You can make your module, if you are unhappy by the lack of control over henchman, then that is your opinion, but the way I see it, in a game you are supposed to be by yourself, any help is nice. Besides, you cant always expect to use the same old thing over and over, pretty soon the games would get pretictable, and the feeling of new and improved stuff would lose some if its entertainment, imagine games always in production, but every single one looked just like BG or IWD, with a just a few new thing here and their. So they did a makeover. Just think of it has a complete new thing, and that many stuff did carry over, they added some, and took some out, but overall, its a great game, has many options, and can provide endless gameplay, as long as you look at it the right way, and appretiate what is given.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 10:05 pm

The henchman can for the most part think for them selves, you can give them simple commands and such, but usually that is all that is needed.

Regrettably, that isn't, and the problem's that they *can't* think for themselves. The spellcasting henchmen will throw everything at a foe even if you know in advance that the target is immune to most of the spells. The monk henchman's attack types can't be specified. If a henchman is supposed to lead their own life, well and good, but they better have an AI worthy of giving an appearance of reality to that life--and sadly, NWN doesn't (at this point) supply it.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 1:38 am

Seems there is something here for us interested in scripting for modules.
Improve henchmen AI - this was one of the places I feared that the AI wouldn't be good enough

I take it, it wont take long before people start scripting and providing imporved AI to various things

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:00 am

@Xandax, do you think it's possible, given the available tools, to actually improve henchman AI sufficiently? Has anybody taken a look at the code?

I'm thinking the complexity of it would be daunting. Consider: if you want a sorc henchman to, say, cast just the right spell under a given situation, you would need to make a check for every different monster type in the game. You would have to analyze the distance from the caster to subject, the presence of other enemies and their potential actions, the presence of exits, your own state of health and active spells, etc. You then need to create the kind of "one-two" and "one-two-three" punch strategies employed by clever human players, as well as mixes of spells, weapons, and tactical movement under different conditions. All this leaves out that great aspect of tighter party control which simulates non-combat conversations, where you develop inter-party strategies for facing different monsters and situations. In effect, a henchman always acts like it's playing alone when it's attacking.

In lieu of all the time spent developing such a script, I think Bioware should have used the best intelligence they had available for controlling henchmen: the player's.

Just my POV.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:59 am

Originally posted by fable
@Xandax, do you think it's possible, given the available tools, to actually improve henchman AI sufficiently? Has anybody taken a look at the code?

I'm thinking the complexity of it would be daunting. <snip>

Well - having only briefly looked at the scripting code for monsters - I would imagine it to be somewhat similar for henchmen.
And the code looks to be able to do stuff like this - of course a script that takes into account so many possiblities will be heavy to run - but maybe just cheking to see if the enemy is hurt and then stop casting spells or similar stuff.

If the AI is as poor as people say - and you can script for hencmen as well as montsers - I'd estimate that imporvement can be done.

Of course all this is estimated without me having the game, and gone indebts with the scripting as a consequence thereof - so of course - I might be way of base.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:16 pm

I have not yet obtained NWN, and I'm not entirely certain that I will. I sense that in order to really get the most out of the game one will have to devote a lot of time to it...

My question on the subject, though, is this. Is it possible to play in multiplayer format alone, as you can with SoA? If that is the case, can you create more than one Player Character, thus eliminating the need for henchmen?

Please excuse what may be a stupid question, as I said I have not purchased the game....

Pebz · Post by **Pebz** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:26 pm

dragon wench: Only stupid question is the unasked one

Im not sure about creating a multi-player game and playing alone, but im quite sure you cant control more than one character at any given time.

Stirge · Post by **Stirge** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:17 am

Henchmen scripts sound awful

Well, I haven't started NWN yet (have the game, but my computer can't handle it!), but it doesn't take long to figure out where the problem is:

SCRIPTING!!

I mean, way back in the non-user-friendly days of BG2, many people rolled their own NPC scripts. The most hard-core would not even issue commands to people in their party--they would just let the scripts handle pretty much everything. My point is that it worked. The Infinity Engine scripting system wasn't super flexible, but it sufficed, to the point where people joked that the best scripts play better than mediocre human players.

Well, we shouldn't be hearing about scripting problems for NWN. I mean, I don't know how many hundreds of hours David Gaider spent on scripting for BG2 monsters *after* the game was released. This is because he realized that it's no fun unless the scripts are good.

It's sad to hear that they sluffed off on NWN henchmen scripts. You would think they would take them seriously. Oh well--I just hope that scripters like Sakryn step up and quickly improve henchman scripts. I guess this is the way to deflect all NWN criticism: If you don't like something, you can fix it! It's not like the "henchmen" in Diakatana...

The obvious inadequacy of the present henchmen scripts probably points to a general scripting laziness. I bet you that yet again, even smart monsters will basically just be scripted to attack the nearest enemy, no matter what extenuating circumstances there are.

This leaves future mod builders with a lot of work to do. I would do it myself, but I need to spend the time earning the money I need to upgrade my computer.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:20 am

I think Stirge makes some good points.

From what I have gathered reading this board and others, the reason that henchmen are so poorly scripted is that they are essentially an afterthought. I get the sense that NWN is mostly focused on the multiplayer aspects, and that henchmen were added simply to cater to the single player component of the game in as minimal a way as possible.

While I applaud Bioware for producing what looks to be another truly excellent piece of work, I do think it is unfortunate that single player gamers have been largely neglected.

Again, I have not yet bought NWN, and perhaps I will change my opinion once I actually play it. This is just based on what I have been reading.

Kull · Post by **Kull** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:25 am

Nice eye candy for those fortunate enough to have a powerful computer. Nice potential for remote gaming (multiplayer) for those fortunate enough to have broad band. I'm looking forward to Baldur's Gate III - I think they call it Icewind Dale II.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:26 am

As far back as two years ago, NWN was planned by its developers to cover four different areas: a) singleplayer, Bioware-developed; b) singleplayer, mods shared; c) multiplayer, Bioware-developed; d) multiplayer, mods shared. Henchmen have been part of things for some time. My impression is that AI has simply never been a strongpoint at Bioware--and this is not meant as an attack on the company. They've created one of my favorite games (BG2). Yet we all know that even the enemy AI in BG2 isn't very good, at all, and that players have significantly enhanced that in mods. I suspect the henchmen AI was just business-as-usual, in that sense. Just my POV, and more a matter of personal observation, without facts to back it up.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:52 am

@Fable, true.....

I am probably just feeling nostalgic for the in-party NPC interactions that we had in SoA. IMO, this was one of the things that made it such a great game.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:59 am

Originally posted by dragon wench
@Fable, true.....

I am probably just feeling nostalgic for the in-party NPC interactions that we had in SoA. IMO, this was one of the things that made it such a great game.

I couldn't agree more. There is some very good interaction in NWN, but you really don't lead a party in singleplayer. I guess we'll have to wait for Lionheart or Bioware's Star Wars RPG to regain that sense of living, breathing NPCs.