Originally posted by VonDondu the player should be able to ask Bodhi to join the party. But the answer ultimately depends on Bodhi: she can refuse to join if she wishes. For some reason, in the Ascension MOD, she won't join forces with a Good character. I don't know the MOD designer's reasons, but I agree with his choice, based on my own interpretation of Bodhi's character.
Well... I could tell you a nice story about how in character this decision is for Bodhi, but the biggest reason she won't join is game balance.
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.
I played the Ascension MOD with Good characters, and I was able to talk Balthazar into joining forces with my party. It was very strange to see him say, "See you in Hell," and it really made me wonder how he intended to get there. But I accepted his help just the same.
I don't remember having any dialogue option to ask Bodhi to join my party, and if there was one, I wouldn't have selected it, anyway. She and her brother are just a couple of washed-up has-beens, and I squished them like insects beneath my feet.
Well, since I wrote Bodhi's dialogue for Ascension, and decided who she would and wouldn't join with, I'll answer your questions.
The first thing to understand is that Bodhi is far more evil than any NPC you can have in your party. She lives for one thing: herself. No doubt she would like to take revenge on the elves, but you can't do that if you're dead or powerless.
She works with her brother, not out of any sibling bond, but because it suits her. His power, and their shared plight, meant he was useful to her. He could get her a soul and transfer it to her, and then he could hurt the people who had hurt her. He was her route to power. Before he became Irenicus, it was quite likely that she was pulling his strings, and that had he ascended, she would have been the power behind his throne.
Bitterness has made him harder, and put him in control. The blow to him is greater because he did not despise his home. He did not desire more, but for the whisperings of his sister. Therefore he takes control, and hates his sister.
In Ascension you can ask Bodhi to join, or Bodhi will offer to join. Alignment and rep are the factors here.
Firstly, anyone who is good is already out of the question. She will have an innate distrust of you. Someone who is good is sworn to stamp out evil in all its forms, or so she sees it. With her black heart, she has no trust. She is willing to betray Irenicus, so why would you not betray her afterwards and kill her? It's your nature after all.
While an evil being might be *more* inclined to betray her, they are something she understands. She knows how to play someone who is looking out for themselves and no other. Mutural loathing is something she has lived with for hundreds of years, and she can accept and understand it.
Of course, if you're charming enough, she'll see you as a more attractive proposition and offer to join, rather than waiting on you. She feels she is in rather desperate circumstances. Irenicus is content to come back, crush you, then rot once more. Bodhi has no such desire. She has no loyalty to Irenicus, feels no gratitude towards Melissan. She is looking for a way out, and the player may well provide one.
Your in-depth analysis of Bodhi's nature and character is great, I suspect, more or less, we have all thought of her as such though.
What provoked these long posts, however, has been your denial that Bodhi's choice is based on whether you lead a good or evil aligned party. You have stated clearly that Bodhi would join the "strong" and the "worthy". And you haven't justified this yet.
May I pressume it's just a personal taste?
Cheers
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
I don't remember having any dialogue option to ask Bodhi to join my party, and if there was one, I wouldn't have selected it, anyway.
Leonardo is absolutely right. There is the option to talk with Bodhi and ask her to join you. But her final sentence will be the one Leonardo has written above: She doesn't trust you. Her various answers and her lines in general in this dialogue give you the whole picture of her character: exactly what Quitch has described above.
No, I don't think I would ask her to join my party either -- I did it once, though, just for getting familiar with her lines).
The fact is that Bodhi is a convincing and far more interesting "evil" character than her brother. Irenicus is just a pathetic lunatic.
(I recall a thread, months ago, where this has been discussed thoroughly.)
Cheers
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
Your in-depth analysis of Bodhi's nature and character is great, I suspect, more or less, we have all thought of her as such though.
What provoked these long posts, however, has been your denial that Bodhi's choice is based on whether you lead a good or evil aligned party. You have stated clearly that Bodhi would join the "strong" and the "worthy". And you haven't justified this yet.
May I pressume it's just a personal taste?
Cheers
The first question is why define people by good and evil? I define them by strong and worthy. Thus, Bodhi joins the strong and worthy.
In turn, these people turn out to be evil.
The good are parasites. Such a way was thought up by the weak for the weak. They recruit strong guardians, and feed off their strength to protect themselves from the ravages of those who are better, stronger, superior. They put out false messages of mortality to fool people into protecting them.
People of evil serve their race by ensuring that only those who should survive, do survive. No one is protected needlessly. They provide a service, or are left to rot. Only by proving your use are you allowed to live, protected by those who themselves have proven useful through strength.
"Good" is nothing but a shield of morality for parasites.
BTW Quitch, thanks for helping to create the Ascension MOD. I'm sorry that I didn't appreciate the work you put into Bodhi's dialogue since I blew her off completely, but the MOD is great, and I appreciate the effort that people like you put into MODs
Quitch, if this is what you intend for the Imoen Mod too,
I have to STOP you.
You have not described goodness. You've described a social
attitude.
Goodness is a PERSONAL thing.
Goodness is EMPATHY.
Goodness is to see someone suffer, and suffer in your turn
for this.
There's no argumentation or calculation: it's a feeling.
It's so simple.
No ties to religion, to laws, or to fears.
I understand that REAL goodness is rarer than people think.
I myself SURELY am not good in such terms, but still,
goodness exists in some of us and it's NOT what
you said of it.
A truly good person follows his heart no matter what.
There's no cowardice in this.
If this is REALLY what you think of a "good" character, then please,
do not write the Imoen Mod!
Hope I misunderstood...
There's no point in arguing here, is there? Actually, if all this definition of good and evil is your creed in life, there is no point at all.
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
