Npc question

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 8:41 pm

Fable it seems to me that you're trying to justify genocides, climbing on mirrors, as we say!!!

Evil, evil, Fable!!

Ok, ok, J/K !!
But it's the same old story... if you want good, go for
Neutral Good!!

Hesperus · Post by **Hesperus** » Mon Jul 22, 2002 9:43 pm

Well taken and understood. And I can't say I havn't had a PC with trusted companions slaughter every drow in the underdark without doing all the drow quest song and dance... Bhallspawn do loose their tempers from time to time, and sometimes listen to Paladins...

And I certainly see that mixing the two is problematic, I mean, that has to do with some of my problems

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:15 am

I'm of the impression that Edwin is the most "messed up" of the lot. Think about it. Aerie, Viconia and Anomen are all coming to terms with their individually horrific pasts. Each is the stronger for having triumphed over personal adversity. Each is a winner.

By contrast, Edwin gives no impression of having a traumatic history. It's always possible; but he seems to have had an exceptional education, and the best of training. His personality difficulties aren't the results of dealing with things that happened to him; they're problems of attitude--in other words, of his making. His arrogance and sarcastic muttering give evidence of a person who completely lacks social skills. Nor is he interested in results, as much as he is in remaining inside some childhood fantasy of power. What does he shout in the middle of battle? Not, "Die, vermin!" or "My Magic Missile will help explode you a new one!" No, he screams, "FEAR ME!"--as though instilling fear in his opponents were more important than anything else.

Fear is a dangerous tool to wield, even in the hands of a master, and it has a tendency to bite the hand that uses it. I was oddly gratified to find, at the conclusion of ToB, that Edwin's final history was the worst of the companions (from the standpoint of personal victory).

Firinflablaze · Post by **Firinflablaze** » Tue Aug 06, 2002 7:35 pm

I've noticed that in the game world paladins are often represented in ways that seem similar, but are actually quite different. All are champions of good and right, but seem to try and undertake this impossible task in ways ranging from the blind to the philanthropic. Examples as follows:

Paladins do everything for honor: will lose their lives for honor, will never break a truce, will undertake quests to increase their honor. (to me, these guys seem to have a self-esteem problem)
Game example: Ultima series.

Paladins serve their lives to uphold the law, not so blindingly as a lawful neutral soldier, but act according to the letter of the law, not the spirit. If the laws are evil, they fight against them, or leave. They take their stability from the laws.
Game example: (A)D&D

Paladins serve the greater good, disregarding laws, self, and authority to help others.
Game example: Quest for Glory series

As you can see, there are three kinds of paladins, all who serve good, but for different motives: selfishness (I need more honor!), self-righteousness (if the law says it, it must be right), and selflessness (I doubt these guys would be numerous in real life).

My point is, AD&D Paladins are a little blind, but they do serve righteousness, albeit in their own not-so-righteous way.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed Aug 07, 2002 6:01 pm

Originally posted by UncleScratchy Jan is by far the most stable NPC. No hypocrisy escapes his keen eye and he quickly lets it be known through his parable-like sarcastic stories. Other times he's just entertaining. He handles the pain of his lost love with compassion and strength. Probably the best NPC in the game in terms of balance, skills and humor.

Jan is a decent fellow, but he seems to be psychologically incapable of telling the truth. Doesn't that suggest some sort of imbalance in his life, if not actual emotional problems? Self-confident people have no need to lie. Maybe it has something to do with growing up in a poor family; perhaps he resorts to delusions to make himself and those around him feel better. This is just for the sake of argument, of course; I really like Jan.

I will reiterate my own belief that Mazzy is by far the most stable, well-adjusted, self-confident NPC of them all. Minsc is a distant second. He's gullible (for example, he puts blind faith in the main character, and he is easily confused by those who try to deceive him), but that's because of his head wound, not because of any emotional difficulties.

Edwin isn't screwed up per se, but he has the emotional and moral development of a toddler. Nalia is obsessed and deluded and thinks she's better than other people. Imoen is stable enough, all things considered, but she's not really her own person (yet), so she lets the main character make all of the important decisions in her life. Korgan is definitely screwed up; as he explains to Mazzy, he resorts to violence and aggression because it makes the pain go away. Jaheira has a twisted personality and an inability to make a commitment. Valygar, Viconia, Aerie, Anomen, Cernd, and Keldorn all have well-documented personal problems. I'm not sure what to say about Yoshimo and Haer'Dalis.

gnomethingy · Post by **gnomethingy** » Wed Aug 07, 2002 7:27 pm

I agree... Mazzy is the most stable npc

Possibly the only stable npc....

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Wed Aug 07, 2002 9:12 pm

I'm not sure what to say about Yoshimo and Haer'Dalis.

Haer'Dalis may be the only other stable NPC. He doesn't really seem to have any problems, considering he's a planeswalker and he's hanging out with a bunch of people who consider him fairly odd and whom he considers a bunch of rubes. (Think Ford Prefect in Hitchhiker's Guide, only more stable and fewer drinks).

Yoshimo.... well, he's a thief. Like a lot of thieves, he's hanging out with the wrong crowd (you know - the remorseless, psychotic, cruel crowd) and ends up paying the price. He's walked down the wrong path, but actually seems to handle it fairly stoically and with some honor. (What, apologizing to someone before trying to kill them doesn't count?)

Mazzy, the valiant and noble, is probably my favorite character. "I go forth!" Not arrogant, always looking to right wrongs, compassionate, yet also fearless. (I love how she warns Viconia and Edwin that she's watching them. Also how she tells Jan to shut up.)

Interesting how Mazzy is not only the stable one, but also the only really good and noble one, imo.

Keldorn seems tired of life and more interested in the law than in what's right. He talks of duty, but has completely neglected his family. (Hello??)

Sir Anomen... well, I won't even go there, except to say that good and arrogance go together like oil and water.

Nalia... she likes to "do good", but she's so condescending it's like she does it just for the "philanthroper's high".

Aerie... she seems more of the "can't we all just get along" crowd, more concerned with being nice to others (and having others be nice to her) than with actual good.

Imoen... hmmm... actually, she may be another "good" one. Fairly innocent, carefree, unselfish and with a pretty good sense of humor. Concerned about the obvious evil of Irenicus. Yeah, put her down as a good one.

Minsc is also good, but it's the goodness of a litte child.

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Wed Aug 07, 2002 9:25 pm

Originally posted by UncleScratchy
Jan, the most perceptive character in the game notices it at once.

Does anyone have any other instances of perceptive characters, particularly perceptiveness that foreshadows something in the game?

*SPOILERS* by nature.

For instance, when you first meet Yoshimo, Minsc is pretty suspicious, saying something along the lines of "Never have I seen Boo's whiskers quiver so!" (Perceptive, that Boo!)

Also, I've heard that Haer'Dalis challenges Yoshimo with hiding something in one of their conversations.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed Aug 07, 2002 9:41 pm

Originally posted by Nygma
Does anyone have any other instances of perceptive characters, particularly perceptiveness that foreshadows something in the game?

*SPOILERS* by nature.

Okay, here's a spoiler.

SPOILER

YOSHIMO: Haer'Dalis, a ronin, a rogue. You've more freedom than most and yet you remain as grumpy as a flea-bitten dog. Why so glum?

HAER'DALIS: Dogs, is it? A fitting cloak for a blood-hound. You've got the scent now, Yoshimo, and shall bring the prey to your mysterious master.

YOSHIMO: No master have I save my own conscience. I merely wish to know why life is such a burden to you.

HAER'DALIS: Shackles as heavy as yours cannot be hidden from one who has been a slave. I tire of this dreadful acting. Leave me be, Yoshimo.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu Aug 08, 2002 1:26 am

Originally posted by VonDondu

Jan is a decent fellow, but he seems to be psychologically incapable of telling the truth. Doesn't that suggest some sort of imbalance in his life, if not actual emotional problems? Self-confident people have no need to lie. Maybe it has something to do with growing up in a poor family; perhaps he resorts to delusions to make himself and those around him feel better. This is just for the sake of argument, of course; I really like Jan.

This is, in it's own way, another case of the oversimplified AD&D world. Gnomes are viewed largely as mad tinkerers who always seem to be telling stories, ergo Jan is put in as the quintessential gnome.

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:02 pm

Mazzy may be the most stable, but she is delusional to some degree in that she fancies herself a paladin and tries to act like one even to the point of forcing Valygar into being her page. Being a paladin is not normal halfling behavior and fancying someone to be your page is hardly normal either.

So basically you're saying that a woman who browbeats a man into doing something he doesn't want to do is unstable?

I don't think she's delusional. Her biography states that she would be a paladin if she could. She is a knight, so having a squire is normal. It's not as though she imagines herself to be a paladin, she knows that is denied her, but she admires what they stand for (or should stand for) and tries to model her actions after that ideal. Praiseworthy, imo.

I don't know much about DnD, but I thought paladins were exemplary knights who had been gifted with the strength of their deity to aid in the cause of right. Kind of stupid, I thought, that only humans could be that class. What, deities that have human paladins discriminate against non-humans? The only deities that do the whole paladin thing are only worshipped by humans? The deities worshipped by non-humans just don't subscribe to that whole paladin thing? Why not a non-human paladin?

Besides, if a paladin is a knight of pure and noble heart that wields the power of her deity in pursuit of said deity's cause, then Mazzy is a paladin. She can call upon Avoreen for strength, healing, swiftness, and courage in addition to wielding Avoreen's weapons. Delusional? I must disagree.

Nygma · Post by **Nygma** » Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:56 pm

Started trying to rank stability of NPCs. Boy, tougher than I thought.

1. Mazzy
2. Haer'Dalis
3. Yoshimo (absolute worst position of any NPC, but still never really loses it)
4. Korgan (rock solid in his principles of drink, coin, and axes to the skull)
5. Viconia (non-romanced. drow are good at handling trivial things like the annihilation of their house and hatred from all around them.)
6. Nalia (handles death of family fairly well)
7. Jan (way too attached to turnips to be higher!

)
8. Edwin (huge ego leads to a bit of instability)
9. Cernd (has to deal with fatherhood; plus, how stable is someone more concerned with plants than human beings?)
10. Anomen (passed test)
11. Imoen (Irenicus' experiments too much)
12. Valygar (almost superstitious about the evil of magic)
13. Viconia (romanced. drow have a tough time with the whole love/trust thing)
14. Keldorn (too brittle and likely to be blinded by "principle" into acting irrationally)
15. Aerie (can't get over wings)
16. Jaheira (death of Khalid, Harpers)
17. Minsc (despite intelligence, perception, and oratory of Boo)
18. Edwina (have her talk to Sylvanas in Copper Coronet

)
19. Anomen (failed test)

Cernd, Edwin, Valygar, and the more stable Anomen were wild guesses.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu Aug 08, 2002 11:34 pm

UncleScratchy, you have tried to make the case that Jan is truthful, possibly moreso than the other NPCs. I'm going to ignore my feeling that what you said is just so...wrong, and take your examples at face value.

Let's look at them, shall we?

Jan tells Haer'Dalis that he wants to write an epic poem, but in reality, he has no such intention; he simply wants to rankle Haer'Dalis by asking him to find words that rhyme with words that can't be rhymed. Put simply, that's...deceitful.

Jan also tells Haer'Dalis that he has an idea for a play, but you can be sure he has no intention of actually writing one. Jan is simply playing to his audience (Haer'Dalis) with another one of his outlandish tales, revelling in Haer'Dalis's discomfort (all in good fun, of course). Put simply, that's...deceitful.

Jan tells Nalia that he wants to write an epic about the main character, but you can be sure that his version of events will contain embellishments and fabrications that go way beyond "poetic license" or even allegory. Put simply, that's...deceitful.

And finally, Jan pretends to apologize to Anomen, but in reality, he's insulting Anomen even further. Put simply, that's...deceitful.

Jan is chaotic, and he loves to pester people. At worst, he's sort of a verbal bully (not that he causes any real harm), and at best, he's the most entertaining member of the party.

I have to say that I slightly disagree with Ode to a Grasshopper's remark that Jan is "put in as the quintessential gnome". He's far more than just that. I mean, when I heard that there was a gnome in the game who, like the stereotype, tinkers and tells stories, I never imagined that Jan would be so brilliant and so full of surprises. He surpasses gnomishness.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:24 am

Originally posted by VonDondu
I have to say that I slightly disagree with Ode to a Grasshopper's remark that Jan is "put in as the quintessential gnome". He's far more than just that. I mean, when I heard that there was a gnome in the game who, like the stereotype, tinkers and tells stories, I never imagined that Jan would be so brilliant and so full of surprises. He surpasses gnomishness.

Aside from the fact that he also serves as an excellent touch of humor, he is still the typical gnome, though I have to agree that he far exceeds any expectations. For the record, Jan is probably my favourite NPC.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 2:13 am

Originally posted by UncleScratchy
(he's the biggest proponent for hurrying to rescue Imoen even though he's never met her).

And give him credit - he's also the only one who offers to make some soup for her.

jcompton · Post by **jcompton** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 9:29 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Aside from the fact that he also serves as an excellent touch of humor, he is still the typical gnome, though I have to agree that he far exceeds any expectations. For the record, Jan is probably my favourite NPC.

Despite the fact that in a weird way I enjoy writing for him and think I do so pretty well, Jan is essentially a one-note, one-joke NPC, and the attempts to flesh him out (the incredibly tedious and not very engaging sick girl quest) are actually worse than keeping him flat.

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:09 am

Originally posted by jcompton
the incredibly tedious and not very engaging sick girl quest.

Besides the fact you have to schlep to nearly every area in town to complete the quest (which is annoying), why didn't you like it?

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:49 am

Jan's sub-plot, or "the sick girl quest", as you put it, gives rise to (IMO) the best epilogue of them all at the conclusion of Throne of Bhaal. I admit that I was disappointed that the issue with Lissa was never resolved in Shadows of Amn (my character pledged to help Jan however she could, and it would have been interesting to try and foil whatever plot The Hidden was up to), but no matter what my character could have done, it wouldn't have been as...inspiring...as what Jan finally did.

So I for one am glad that the story-writers attempted to flesh out Jan, as you put it.

jcompton · Post by **jcompton** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:43 pm

Kopywrite:

Besides the fact you have to schlep to nearly every area in town to complete the quest (which is annoying), why didn't you like it?

Well, that's the #1 reason, but secondarily, it just didn't seem to fit that all of a sudden he has this "human" side (yes, I appreciate that this is an ironic statement)... some of the other NPCs seem to be more fleshed out by their surprising revelations or by seeing a different side of them, but with Jan, perhaps because the QUANTITY of the "usual" side of him is so large, it doesn't seem to help.

Originally posted by VonDondu
Jan's sub-plot, or "the sick girl quest", as you put it, gives rise to (IMO) the best epilogue of them all at the conclusion of Throne of Bhaal. I admit that I was disappointed that the issue with Lissa was never resolved in Shadows of Amn (my character pledged to help Jan however she could, and it would have been interesting to try and foil whatever plot The Hidden was up to), but no matter what my character could have done, it wouldn't have been as...inspiring...as what Jan finally did. So I for one am glad that the story-writers attempted to flesh out Jan, as you put it.

Jan's epilogue was pretty good. Although that brings up another issue, if the Hidden isn't Alhoon (whom we might have destroyed by that point of the game), who is he, and why is there such a concentration of liches and mind flayer lords in Athkatla?

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 2:02 pm

Originally posted by jcompton
why is there such a concentration of liches and mind flayer lords in Athkatla?

Because it makes the game more fun?

Originally posted by jcompton
it just didn't seem to fit that all of a sudden he has this "human" side... perhaps because the QUANTITY of the "usual" side of him is so large, it doesn't seem to help.

The reason why I wasn't surprised or disappointed to see Jan's serious side is because of a lesson I learned while watching people like Robin Williams over the years. A lot of people felt the same way you feel about Jan when Robin Williams transformed himself from a hyperactive clown to a soul-torn dramatic actor. I remember watching Barbara Walters try to interview him in the 1980's, when he was best known for playing characters like Mork from Ork (as opposed to characters like Patch Adams). He couldn't stop cutting up long enough to answer any of her questions. Finally, Barbara (who was exasperated) asked him, "Are you ever capable of having a serious conversation?" Then he got all serious and said, "Oh, yes," and he explained that he lets it all out, so to speak, when he's around his closest friends, and the look on his face said it all. I got the impression that he laughs so much because it makes the pain of his existence go away; if he weren't smiling, he'd be crying. In Mrs. Doubtfire, the character he plays is just like him in real life: barely able to hang on emotionally until he puts on a funny mask, and then he has strength. That's pretty much the way that he portrayed Patch Adams, as well as other characters. You could see those characters' serious side from the very beginning, so it didn't seem like it was just "added on" to flesh them out or make them more human.

I don't try to psychoanalyze Jan, and unlike UncleScratchy, I don't think there's a purpose or a hidden meaning in everything Jan says, but I figure he's a little like Robin Williams.