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Originally posted by fable
I keep thinking back to a film about Pol Pot's horrifying brutal and dehumanizing Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia, called the Killing Fields, that was very popular: it used Strauss' Four Last Songs to provide a philosophical message.

I have the soundtrack to this film, IIRC the music for it was by and large done by Mike Oldfield, no?

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
I have the soundtrack to this film, IIRC the music for it was by and large done by Mike Oldfield, no?

Yes, but--do you remember the composition that the Cambodian boy who accompanies the Western "hero" through the film listens to, all the time? The work he describes as having an unearthly beauty. Those were Richard Strauss' Four Last Songs, as he mentions. They are featured several times during the film. Rather than being composed to create an atmosphere alone, they also feature in the plot in a sense, as an example of the character's striving for something ideal, something that reaches beyond the horror of the environment.

Originally posted by fable


Yes, but--do you remember the composition that the Cambodian boy who accompanies the Western "hero" through the film listens to, all the time? The work he describes as having an unearthly beauty. Those were Richard Strauss' Four Last Songs, as he mentions. They are featured several times during the film. Rather than being composed to create an atmosphere alone, they also feature in the plot in a sense, as an example of the character's striving for something ideal, something that reaches beyond the horror of the environment.

Regrettably I have yet to see the film, and it's been a while since listened to the CD.
Another thing to do soon, methinks.

Originally posted by fable
I hope that answers your question. If I'm misunderstanding it, please try again, and I'll do my best to get it right this time.

What i actually meant was to what degree do other media such as films effect the notoriety of certain classical compositions. Also is this a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion? You have sort of answered my question anyway, but i thought i might clarify what i meant

Originally posted by Mr Sleep


What i actually meant was to what degree do other media such as films effect the notoriety of certain classical compositions. Also is this a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion? You have sort of answered my question anyway, but i thought i might clarify what i meant

I see. Well, films (also radio back in the golden age and television) can make classical compositions into overnight popular hits by the crossover phenomenon. Examples of this include the slow movement from Mozart's Piano Concerto #22 in "Elvira Madigan," of the opening bars of Richard Strauss' Thus Spake Zarathustra in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Many people heard these pieces of music for the first time only by watching a movie, a tv show, etc.

The problem with crossover hits is that the 30 second sound bite people enjoy seldom represents the original well, so that while the movie may sell a particular classical (or jazz, or whatever) work, it often creates a sense of disatisfaction with the results. This doesn't make using classical works a bad idea in films, or selling the results as soundtracks a bad idea, afterwards. It just means that purchasers need a sense of reasonable expectation for what they're getting. Potentially, crossovers supply a great opportunity for buyers to expand their musical horizons. In actual fact, most people don't care to expand their musical horizons, and only want a few easily hummable tunes. I'd like to think that the opportunity to sample and understand something new and different is worth all the effort, but not everybody agrees with me on this.

Originally posted by fable
I see. Well, films (also radio back in the golden age and television) can make classical compositions into overnight popular hits by the crossover phenomenon.

That is what i thought, thanks for the reply fable

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
That is what i thought, thanks for the reply fable

Sure thing. Hey, it's what I'm paid the big money for, here, open 24 hours a day to help with your classical needs. Any further questions along these lines?

Originally posted by fable
Sure thing. Hey, it's what I'm paid the big money for, here, open 24 hours a day to help with your classical needs. Any further questions along these lines?

*Mails cheque for $150*

What (in your opinion) is the greatest scandal of classical music, the one event that caused the most commotion.

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
What (in your opinion) is the greatest scandal of classical music, the one event that caused the most commotion.

There have always been first-night scandals, performances of works that caused arguments and even fistfights among members of the audience. In the long run, however, the excitement died down. Some of the worst offenders are now standard repertoire, like Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring.

More long-lasting in its effects was the "Affair Ravel." Maurice Ravel--now universally regarded as one of the greatest composers of the 20th century--studied at the Paris Conservatoire when it was a bastion of the kind of stuffy, conservative bureaucrats that only France seems to know the secret of.

Now, in 19th century France it was common for most enterprising students with acknowledged talent to apply for, and receive, the so-called Prix de Rome, a prize that supports the recipient modestly but sufficiently on a trip to Rome, for a year, where they were expected to study other aspects of the arts and send back one or two pieces of music demonstrating their increasing skill. Debussy and Bizet were among those who received the Prix de Rome, and profitted by it. Ravel, who submitted his early works (now acknowledged to be masterpieces) for consideration, was denied the prize *five times.* When he submitted his famous String Quartet the fifth time, and the judges simply returned it saying that he was now "too old" to apply, there was a huge uproar in the press. Here was a student, already regarded as one of the leading compositional lights of France, and he was being denied a prize in favor of pet mediocrities by a leading government institution.

The result was that heads rolled. The top job at the Conservatoire was given to Gabriel Faure, Ravel's teacher, and arguably the only open-minded musician at the Conservatoire. A quiet, amiable, refined man, Faure promptly began cleaning out the Conservatoire's dead wood, leading to him being nicknamed Caligula by the staff. The entire Conservatoire was reorganized. Ravel never did get his Prix de Rome, but it can be said that this single scandal completely shook up the French musical establishment and caused the loss of several senior level government posts.

1) Surely Beethoven’s hearing loss affected the quality of his music, don’t you think?

2) Why are orchestra members paid so little? So many State and local orchestras across the country seem to be floundering. Do you think this trend will continue and eventually we’ll be left with only a few major, under funded National orchestras? (My older brother was a concert cellist with a PhD from Yale. Unable to earn a moderate living, he quit and is now a lawyer *shudder*)

3) Have you ever been to the Santa Fe Opera?

4) What do you think of Peter Schickele?

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
1) Surely Beethoven’s hearing loss affected the quality of his music, don’t you think?

Beethoven composed music for at least thirty years before going completely deaf. As a result, the compositional process was entirely internalized. He used a piano to help compose, but like many other composers, he didn't need one. He was fully capable of writing music that was as satisfactory as anything else he'd written after he went deaf.

Nor was he the only composer faced with this challenge. I can think offhand of at least two more. Smetana, suffering from side effects of syphillis, also went deaf (and ultimately insane). Among other things, he composed several operas and the brillant tone poem, The Moldau, without his hearing. Gabriel Faure also went deaf in his later years, but wrote his most sublime compositions during that time.

Mind, that's not to say deafness had zero effect on Beethoven or his compositions. Purely on speculation, I'm guessing that the composer, already something of a recluse, simply dropped back further into his own mind, after having lost the enjoyment of regular conversation. If anything, I would hazard a guess that the evolution of Beethoven's so-called "last period" with its forms stretched to their breaking point was accelerated by the composer's relative isolation.

2) Why are orchestra members paid so little? So many State and local orchestras across the country seem to be floundering. Do you think this trend will continue and eventually we’ll be left with only a few major, under funded National orchestras? (My older brother was a concert cellist with a PhD from Yale. Unable to earn a moderate living, he quit and is now a lawyer *shudder*)

A lawyer? You poor thing. I think we may have had a lawyer in the family in the Ukraine, but never left, and my family kept it quiet.

Typically, fulltime orchestra members for professional ensembles do make a pretty good living. There's a national musicians' union for them, and that receive residuals for all broadcasts and recordings. The problem lies in getting enough concert subscribers, and having enough orchestras to handle all the qualified musicians graduated from universities and conservatories. Germany can manage far more musicians, because the culture has a deep-rooted tradition of affection for classical music. But the US is a relative latecomer in this respect, and given the all-pervasive influence of commercial interests, it's not likely to develop that kind of support base anytime soon. Most orchestras are managing, some are thriving, but when the eocnomy dips, the arts are frequently the first thing to get thrown overboard--as though they don't represent something of longlasting value.

3) Have you ever been to the Santa Fe Opera?

Can't say I have. I've got several recordings of theirs, however, illegally made by people sitting in the audience, taping the proceedings. These aren't for sale. A certain group of music lovers simply lke to trade 'em out of pure enjoyment of good listening.

4) What do you think of Peter Schickele? He's fun, he's knowledgeable, and gets a little tiresome after a lot of hearing. I prefer him in small doses, say, an hour at a time, which perfectly suits his programs.

I also like the first album he did as the satirical PDQ Bach, given in NYC back in the 1960s. The humor was easily the best, since he threw into that concert all the best jokes he'd made to his classes at Juillard. (Schickele was a professor at Juillard, one of the premiere musical educational institutions in the US for years. He would occasionally liven things up by coming to class dressed in a baroque wig, and claiming to be the last son and the worst composer in the line of JS Bach.) I'll never forget his oratorio, Iphegenia in Brooklyn (playing on the various Greek plays that place Iphegenia or Oedipus in one place or another), or his Quodlibet, which Schickele termed "a set of variations on a theme I'd forgotten. Maybe I'll remember it, someday."

Thanks @fable!

Hiya Fable--

How are you? Did you know I play classical piano (like CE!)? Lately I've been working on Beethoven's Tempest Sonata. Wish I could play that third movement as well as Glenn Gould. Also, Bach's Prelude & Fugue #12 in F Minor, and the Prelude & Fugue #2 in C Minor. Bach is my big favorite these days. I didn't enjoy his work at all when I was a teenager, I guess it was too subtle for me. Now it seems very emotional. I still have a hatred of Haydn - I think his piano works are the most boring things to play, and I was forced to play them at Interlochen.

I think because of my love of piano, I tend to like pieces written for one instrument or perhaps a quartet. I never listen to symphonies. I just ordered a copy of Pablo Cassals' Bach Cello Suites. BTW, when I was in Bulgaria, they had 2 cable channels devoted to classical music! So much better educated than Americans in that sense.

I was interested in the comments about what composers would think to see their music in a cartoon. I met Chuck Jones and asked him about all the classical music. He loved classical music and deliberately built some cartoons around it to introduce kids to it. He really succeeded, since some people's only experience of this music is via Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny. Personally, I think Beethoven would have loved it. He was a smartass.

Originally posted by VoodooDali
Hiya Fable--

How are you? Did you know I play classical piano (like CE!)? Lately I've been working on Beethoven's Tempest Sonata. Wish I could play that third movement as well as Glenn Gould. Also, Bach's Prelude & Fugue #12 in F Minor, and the Prelude & Fugue #2 in C Minor. Bach is my big favorite these days. I didn't enjoy his work at all when I was a teenager, I guess it was too subtle for me. Now it seems very emotional. I still have a hatred of Haydn - I think his piano works are the most boring things to play, and I was forced to play them at Interlochen.

@VD! Good to hear from you. Have you been lurking a lot, or just unavailable, lately?

Most of Haydn's piano music is light fluff, I agree, composed as teaching pieces and such for Austrian publication houses. (His regular employers, the Counts Esterhazy, had no need for them. They included a virtuoso, but on the now neglected instrument known as the barytone, sort of a violin with a buzzing drone attached.) Have you ever tried Haydn's Piano Sonata #52 in Eb? He wrote it late in life, and it's a lot livelier and more interesting than the bulk of his early stuff.

As for Bach, I agree. I'm a big fan of his Goldberg Variations, and Well-Tempered Clavier. What do you think of Domenico Scarlatti?

I think because of my love of piano, I tend to like pieces written for one instrument or perhaps a quartet. I never listen to symphonies. I just ordered a copy of Pablo Cassals' Bach Cello Suites. BTW, when I was in Bulgaria, they had 2 cable channels devoted to classical music! So much better educated than Americans in that sense.

You'll get no argument from me. The arts are taken seriously as a wellspring of content about the human condition. In some societies, such as our own, that's been subverted into a need to consume the latest mass marketed goods. I have greater hopes for Bulgarian culture surviving all the "benefits" of capitalism than Russia, frankly, because the West is less interested in buying up the assets of Bulgaria than in those of Russia. Sad, but true. The educational system of Bulgaria is still intact, thanks to the liberal Blue party. Russia's main parties simply consist of greedy politicians squabbling over the spoils.

Incidentally, there's a classical Bulgarian station, Classic FM 89.1, that's available for listening over the Internet. Their website's http://www.classicfm.ttm.bg/, but I wasn't able to get to it this morning. However, I was able to hear their signal. It's not very good--only 16K, which means a lot of frequency loss--but they choose a nice variety of music for broadcast.

I was interested in the comments about what composers would think to see their music in a cartoon. I met Chuck Jones and asked him about all the classical music. He loved classical music and deliberately built some cartoons around it to introduce kids to it. He really succeeded, since some people's only experience of this music is via Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny. Personally, I think Beethoven would have loved it. He was a smartass.

Do you remember the one when Bugs walks out in front of an orchestra? He removes his gloves and flexes his long hands, and the audience is heard murmuring, "Oooooh, Leopold...!" That always cracks me up. The reference is to Leopold Stokowski, a great conductor, and incredibly vain about his hands.

Just recently, and for the first time, I encountered a little minuet by a fine 18th century French composer, Gossec. (Now, he saw changes...! He lived from about 1730 until 1830.) It was a wonderfully funny little mincing piece, and I suddenly remembered it being used a 3 Little Pigs cartoon from Warner Bros in the 1940s. Those guys really knew their excrement.

Any questions about specific composers? Instruments? Works?

Thought I'd bump this, to answer all your many classical needs.

dumb question After listening to many Bach concertos, I've realized that the keyboard concertos and other pieces were played by piano. I thought piano wasnt invented in his time. Or did the modern day people simply transcribed them. I have no knowledge on the invention of the piano.
(This seems insignificant but it has been bothering me for days now. )

Originally posted by Koveras
dumb question After listening to many Bach concertos, I've realized that the keyboard concertos and other pieces were played by piano. I thought piano wasnt invented in his time. Or did the modern day people simply transcribed them. I have no knowledge on the invention of the piano.
(This seems insignificant but it has been bothering me for days now. )

There's no such thing as a dumb question. I mean that, and speaking as a person who has always asked plenty of questions, I can tell you I've been accused of making the dumb kind, too.

Bach's concertos were written for the harpsichord. It's an instrument that evolved from the lute, in which the standard keyboard action is used to pluck strings. Note that--pluck 'em, not pong 'em with wrapped metal hammers, as the piano does. The plucking action means the string is pulled, and can't be held or varied in tone: these have always been regarded as the limitations of the harpsichord. On the other hand, it has a clearly delineated start and finish to each note that makes it perfect for fast passagework. The harpsichord has enjoyed a revival since the early 20th century, and is now quite a popular instrument, once more.

The piano is a descendant of the cimbalom, a Hungarian folk instrument which also gave us the xylophone. Since hammers are being used, you can hold the hammer down, lengthening the note, and make the hammer strike more slowly, creating variations in dynamics. The piano (or fortepiano, as it was known back then--meaning loud/soft) first became popular in the late 18th century, though it had been around for a while before then. Early fortepianos sound to me like giant rubber bands, and evidently I'm not the only one. Attempts to revive the old form of the instrument have never caught on.

On the other hand, the modern piano became a hit as soon as it became strong enough to in the early 19th century's large concert halls. It's yet to lose its appeal.

Although it's believed that Bach knew the pianoforte, it's doubtful he ever wrote for it. He preferred using the far more extensive dynamic range of the organ for that kind of thing. His harpsichord concertos were clearly not intended for the piano; the writing isn't even remotely similar.

One interesting sidenote: his second eldest son, Carl Philip Emmanuel Bach, himself an excellent composer, wrote a double concerto for harpsichord and fortepiano. It's quite ingenious, playing up to the virtues of each instrument.

Hope that helps.

One more mystery solved...

Thanks Fable, for some strange reason I couldn't find it when I used classical as term...

Anyway, I am making a little compilation of classical music for a friend who is interested, but a total beginner and not a musically apt person (he claims he is "tone deaf" and he cannot hear the difference between harmonic and disharmonic - I've tried by getting him to compare Lygeti and Chopin )

Obviously, what I include in the compilation is partly depending on what music I have access to, but so far I have included the following:

Starting with Hildegard von Bingen.
- Machaut
- Perotin
- Desprez
- Palestrina (my personal favorite from the era)
- Lassus
- Monteverdi
- Buxtetude
- Pachelbel
- Purcell
- Scarlatti
- Albinoni
- Tartini
- Vivaldi (Gloria in D, Quattro Stagioni, some violin and flute concertos)
- Albinoni
- JS Bach (Brandenburg concertos, Goldberg varations and some of the more well known fugas and concertos)
- Handel (Messiah because it is famous, I dislike it personally, Fire and Water music because I like them )
- Neruda
- Gluck
- CPE Bach
- Haydn (my favorite from the Era, I think he was such a musical talent, far more than "Mozart with soda" or "Beethoven with water" as he is sometimes called )
- Mozart (most famous symphonies, Requiem, famous concertos)
- Beethoven (same as above)
- Hummel
- Rossini
- Bellini

That's as far as I have come. Moving away from the classicism I plan to include:

- Brahms
- Schubert
- Bruckner
- Lizst
- Chopin
- Verdi
- Puccini
- Bizet
- Wagner
- Dvorak
- Sibelius
- Mascagni just because Cavalleria Rusticana is well known and popular

And of the Russian masters, who as you know are my personal favorites:

- Glazunov
- Mussorsky
- Borodin
- Balakiev
- Cui if I can find him
- Rimsky-Korsakov
- Tchaikovsky
For the 20th century of course
- Shostakovich
- Stravinsky
- Chachaturian
- Prokofiev
- Schnittke

And the non Russians:
- Debussy
- Ravel
- Bartok
- Mahler
- Holst
- Schoenberg
- Stockhausen
- Ligeti
- Part

And I had to include Orff because I know the person actually likes Carmina...

However, what do you think about this compilation? Any immediate lacks? Suggestions for more inclusions, particular works, etc? All thoughts welcome!