GameBanshee Forums

i didn't read the whole thread, but when i was a kid, my mum allways counted down to "sunverve" (is it called that in english?) and she hug some decoration on some normal tree branches... not very christmassy, i allwas went to my grandmother for christmas, at least they had a "normal" tree!

Originally posted by fable
We used to have some pretty fundamentalist Christians, here. I'd like to see those points discussed, and not necessarily because I find your views a lot more tolerant to my Wiccan butt. Unfortunately, while individual Christians may show signs of humanity, the monotheistic religions in general, according to their holy books, definitely do not.

This has always hurt and in many ways embarrased me. It seems to me there are many groups who wear the name of Christ as a ticket to a special club adn then devote their membership priviledges to spew hate and intolerance. IMHO nothing could be any farther from the Truth of the message that Yesua himself tried to teach.

The more I learn of your wife the more certain I am that we would be great friends if ever we had the chance to meet IRL......

Heh! Well, her Methodist upbringing has left her with a satirical attitude towards any ritual, and that kind of thing can really take the zing out of your attempts to raise a little energy: atmosphere is important. But I dearly love her, even if she is a mathhead.

*Giggle* sounds like she is a lovely sparing partner for you fable ..

Have you done much research into the "Santerios" of Haiti, and Jamaica?I find their religion very intersting. I became interested in it through my affiliation with some Voodoo practitioners from La. Then I had a chance to attend an Easter celebration when I was in Jamaica. Although it was not Christmas, it was none-the-less an amazing experience.

@ Az: What you describe sounds very interesting, I do not know off hand if there is an English translation, or transliteration, but it is certainly worth a bit of research to find out.

(not to make fun of any real pain from something like this)

*burns fable at the stake*

Heretic! Sinner!.... Where do I sign up!

I've a question for you Scayde, I hope you don't mind me asking, and Fable, I hope that you don't mind me turning the thread a bit.

The question is this. With D&D, many Christians percieve it as an 'evil'. You obviously don't as you write in it, but I ask you, do you know anyone who dislikes it, or do you ever get lectured at all for your hobby?

Originally posted by Nippy
I've a question for you Scayde, I hope you don't mind me asking, and Fable, I hope that you don't mind me turning the thread a bit.

The question is this. With D&D, many Christians perceive it as an 'evil'. You obviously don't as you write in it, but I ask you, do you know anyone who dislikes it, or do you ever get lectured at all for your hobby?

Yes, well sort of, I have never played D&D, but I have had a very similar experience.
As a matter of fact I resigned a very good commercial art job once because of the men in the office who had a bible study group every morning. I did not mind being the only one at work who actual was working for that hour every morning, nor did I mind it being an all male study group. What I minded was that after their session was over, they would ridicule me for my taste in music, the Magic Cards I collected, the movies I went to go see, the McDonald's bag my lunch was in, the can of folger's coffee I brought, the jordache jeans I wore..the last strw came the day I was busting butt trying to get an order out while they were in the office behind closed doors in their study group, when I over heard over the vent the subject they were studying. It was me. well it was me as a representative of women in general. They were saying that I was the root of all evil, that I brought death into the world, that I was a witch, and a Satanist, adn they were all in danger of eternal hell fire for having me in their midst. I was so mad I went in the office, threw my paintbrush on the desk and quite my job on the spot.(BTW the only time I have ever done that) But before I left I stared them each in the eye and told them I felt they would be hard pressed explaining to Jesus how they managed to justify such hatred in his name....

There are many instances and other people, but this is the one I remember as being filled with such abject hatred and ignorance.

I'm sorry for bringing that up Scayde, I find that disgraceful really. Did they know you were Christian? Were you a better worker than they? It seems quite petty and stupid, doesn't it? I'm afraid to say it, but that is how a lot of Christians are percieved by the public...

Originally posted by Nippy
I'm sorry for bringing that up Scayde, I find that disgraceful really. Did they know you were Christian? Were you a better worker than they? It seems quite petty and stupid, doesn't it? I'm afraid to say it, but that is how a lot of Christians are percieved by the public...

Nippy, I told them at one point i was a Christian, but as I was not the same kind of Christian they were, they disregarded me. Unfortunately it is the people like these who color the world's perception of Christians, much like the militant fundamentalists have given Islam a bad rep. These hate mongers and others like them are what many non-Christians think of when they hear the term Jesus, and I am ashamed to say almost turned me away from my faith when I was young. It has been my search for truth, and through study of other faiths that I have been brought back to my faith. People like fable, adn AC who are willing to share their faith with me, gives me a much truer taste of what he tried to teach us than all of the Jerry Fallwells put together

Originally posted by Nippy
I've a question for you Scayde, I hope you don't mind me asking, and Fable, I hope that you don't mind me turning the thread a bit.

The question is this. With D&D, many Christians percieve it as an 'evil'. You obviously don't as you write in it, but I ask you, do you know anyone who dislikes it, or do you ever get lectured at all for your hobby?

Hope you don't mind my jumping in here, but I remembered the bit of harrassment our D&D group got from a bible-study group on campus. Finally, we got tired of it and proceeded to confirm "their worst fears".

Sheesh. Excuse me for this, but bastards is the only word. I have an opinion on this, and I suppose that it is that forcing someone to share a view, or belief, or even worse, telling someone their own belief is wrong or stupid is beyond respect and belief. A friend of mine is a Seventh Day Adventist, and I also have a Baptist colleague. Neither have ever suggested to me that their faith is the better, and both are extremely good friends to me and each other. That is the Christian that I should want to see, and yet, why do we still have those faiths (or branches if you will) of the Christian faith consider themselves above each other? It seems petty and childish to me...

Originally posted by Sojourner
Hope you don't mind my jumping in here, but I remembered the bit of harrassment our D&D group got from a bible-study group on campus. Finally, we got tired of it and proceeded to confirm "their worst fears".

LMAO, good for you Sojourner!

Originally posted by Nippy
Sheesh. Excuse me for this, but bastards is the only word. I have an opinion on this, and I suppose that it is that forcing someone to share a view, or belief, or even worse, telling someone their own belief is wrong or stupid is beyond respect and belief. A friend of mine is a Seventh Day Adventist, and I also have a Baptist colleague. Neither have ever suggested to me that their faith is the better, and both are extremely good friends to me and each other. That is the Christian that I should want to see, and yet, why do we still have those faiths (or branches if you will) of the Christian faith consider themselves above each other? It seems petty and childish to me...

Nippy, don't get me wrong, Most Christians are good and decent people, who are understanding and tolerant of other faiths, adn other forms of Christianity..It is only a very small percentage of those who I refer to as Hate Mongers who seem to give the rest of us a very bad rep.

Originally posted by Scayde
They were saying that I was the root of all evil, that I brought death into the world, that I was a witch, and a Satanist, adn they were all in danger of eternal hell fire for having me in their midst.

Oddly enough, I've often had the exactly same reaction to your posts, leading the rest of us away from the path of righteousness. More seriously, this reminds me all too well of the wonderfully accurate zingers I've caught against fundamentalism in the few episodes of the Simpsons seen over the years, like the subject for a sermon outside the local church: Great Female Satans of the Bible, From Jezebel to Janet Reno.

Even more seriously, it shows just how deep-rooted fundamentalism can be in many urban areas of the US--nevermind the more rural, conservative culture, which is a feature of every society. And it explains why pagans and Wiccans like myself don't reveal, much less celebrate our religious preferences openly. As I mentioned further up in this thread, there have been recorded instances of assault on pagans who let that fact be on, and even a couple of shootings. There have also been very influential ministers of important community churches who have demanded the death sentence for witches. No, it's no comment, but what's one to think upon hearing that? As long as the general community remains either neutral or hostile towards benign, smaller religions, there will be little inclination for its members to come forward in the "land of the free."

Originally posted by Scayde
It seems to me there are many groups who wear the name of Christ as a ticket to a special club adn then devote their membership priviledges to spew hate and intolerance. IMHO nothing could be any farther from the Truth of the message that Yesua himself tried to teach.

Yet if you speak to some of them, they will assure you that they are not into hatred, but earnestly seeking after the salvation of the souls of those who are doomed to hell by their beliefs. Many truly feel this way. I find it scary, because there are many people who feel that it is their loving obligation to use every means short of physical violence to drive a non-believer into a set of beliefs; and some don't stop at violence, either.

But on that issue of spewing hate, allow me to turn back the hands of time (he intones), and brliefly relate an event that happened back in 1977. I was a radio producer for a public radio station at the time, when public radio really meant getting the public involved, instead of paying big bucks for programs produced in fatcat studios. And I had agreed to act as moderator between the then- most outspoken advocate of atheism in the US, Madelyn Murray O'Hare, and a Catholic spokesperson, Mary Royer, in a life, on-air debate.

It really wasn't a debate. Within fifteen minutes of starting the show, both advocates had feral grins on their faces, and were rising across the desk as they shouted at one another. Ms. O'Hare, who championed Reason, was screaming her lungs out in anger. Ms. Royer, devoted follower of the Prince of Peace, had curved her hands into claws.

My point in all this is only that advocacy of a religious ideal is often skin deep, whether its Christianity, Wicca, or anything else. One's religious values aren't really on display until they're put to the test, and a minister who preaches the destruction of other religions is both laughable and dangerous, IMO.

*Giggle* sounds like she is a lovely sparing partner for you fable ..

We don't spar that much, as you might guess. Our relationship is pretty solid.

Have you done much research into the "Santerios" of Haiti, and Jamaica?I find their religion very intersting. I became interested in it through my affiliation with some Voodoo practitioners from La.

Only a bit. I knew enough to see the evidence of it wherever we went during our three long vacations in Venezuela, back in the 1980s. And I know the basic principles. It's never really held my interest much, because of the complete "otherness" of its gods. I tend to prefer religious systems that develop and grow the worshipper, rather than those that simply provide power (whatever one believes that to be) in exchange for worship. But it's also possible that I really don't know the internal workings of these religions at all, and that my views are extremely superficial. I worship in what I know, and the area I explore already has so much uncharted territory that I'm sure it will last me at least a lifetime.

Originally posted by fable
[/color]

Oddly enough, I've often had the exactly same reaction to your posts, leading the rest of us away from the path of righteousness.

*Giggling Hysterically*

Even more seriously, it shows just how deep-rooted fundamentalism can be in many urban areas of the US--nevermind the more rural, conservative culture, which is a feature of every society. And it explains why pagans and Wiccans like myself don't reveal, much less celebrate our religious preferences openly. As I mentioned further up in this thread, there have been recorded instances of assault on pagans who let that fact be on, and even a couple of shootings. There have also been very influential ministers of important community churches who have demanded the death sentence for witches. No, it's no comment, but what's one to think upon hearing that? As long as the general community remains either neutral or hostile towards benign, smaller religions, there will be little inclination for its members to come forward in the "land of the free."

I understand you position all too well. I find it very unfortunate that so many people who consider themselves followers of Christ have so totally missed or distorted his teachings. I can't help but wonder if we are all truly held responsible for our actions on a "day of judgement" how they are going to explain their actions when they have claimed to follow the man who said "Love your neighbour as youself".

I believe with all of my heart that the Creator never made a child he did not love. How then must he hurt when he sees his children attacking one another over their feeble attempts to define the Divine which is beyond all of our comprehention. There is not one among us who can truly grasp the nature of our origins. There is not a one among us who can truly know the face of God. How pompus and ludicrous is it then for anyone of us to judge, or even worse, to punish another because he believes differently than we do.

My mother never took us to Church. She had great disdain for "religion" and often said that if it were not for religion, there would be no wars. While I feel this is a bit of an overstatement, Religion has often lent its name to the greed that fuels the wars, glossing over the avarice with a"noble" facade. In many ways I respect her decision to shield us from that.

I did not persue my faith untill I was an adult, well equiped to sift through the dogma, do my own research, and not fall prey to those who would try to mainpulate the mind of the seeker through fear and intimidation.

Originally posted by fable
Yet if you speak to some of them, they will assure you that they are not into hatred, but earnestly seeking after the salvation of the souls of those who are doomed to hell by their beliefs. Many truly feel this way. I find it scary, because there are many people who feel that it is their loving obligation to use every means short of physical violence to drive a non-believer into a set of beliefs; and some don't stop at violence, either.

It is sad not only for the rest of us, but for them also...Think of how awful it must be to have a zealous heart, wanting so desperately to please ones god, yet so filled with hate that he cannot see the message he is trying to defend.

But on that issue of spewing hate, allow me to turn back the hands of time (he intones), and brliefly relate an event that happened back in 1977. I was a radio producer for a public radio station at the time, when public radio really meant getting the public involved, instead of paying big bucks for programs produced in fatcat studios. And I had agreed to act as moderator between the then- most outspoken advocate of atheism in the US, Madelyn Murray O'Hare, and a Catholic spokesperson, Mary Royer, in a life, on-air debate.

It really wasn't a debate. Within fifteen minutes of starting the show, both advocates had feral grins on their faces, and were rising across the desk as they shouted at one another. Ms. O'Hare, who championed Reason, was screaming her lungs out in anger. Ms. Royer, devoted follower of the Prince of Peace, had curved her hands into claws.

How pathetic

I also am a solo practicing Wiccan. I consider myself a "young" Wiccan since I have only been practicing for a couple of years.

My parents did not followed any religion. It was never mentioned or encouraged, basically they considered religion non-existent. I lived that way until after my divorce. At that time I began to search for the true me; not the me that everyone else had made me or forced me to be. I began to research religions and attend traditional churches. The more I learned the more confused I became. I did not understand how some could proclaim their beliefs but not live their lives that way. They would preach acceptance of everyone and their beliefs but then ostracize anyone who had different beliefs.

During this search is when I found Wicca. I immediately felt a connection with the teachings and beliefs. All I can say is that it "felt right".

As others have noted, I have also dealt with the misunderstandings of some regarding what a Wiccan is. This can be very difficult to handle. Some people can be very prejudiced in their views and beliefs; others curious and open. Since I live in a very conservative and conventional religious area I have learned to be wary of who I discuss religion with.

I am pleased to see that some here have the same beliefs and more pleased to see that others have shown acceptance and curiousity.

Fable, I have a couple of questions. Do you have any children? If so, how do you handle their religious knowledge? I have two children (14 and 10), they know that I am a Wiccan but I do not force them to participate. I answer any questions they ask about Wicca and any other religion and encourage them to follow what they believe.

Also, are there any books or other material that you would recommend? I have found it very difficult to find good Wicca information aside from the fanatical.

Blessed Be!
Gwendri

Originally posted by Scayde
I believe with all of my heart that the Creator never made a child he did not love. How then must he hurt when he sees his children attacking one another over their feeble attempts to define the Divine which is beyond all of our comprehention.

You remind me of a passage in one of my favorite novels, Cabell's Jurgen. At that point, Cabell has visited Hell, which he discovered was a democracy in which the predominant religion was Patriotism. Now, Cabell climbs to Heaven's gates, where he meets St. Peter. There, they discuss the fact that all the saints and angels, taking pity on god, have made a giant shield to cover the earth, and keep the sounds of rhetoric invoking god's blessing and holy books for everything from looting to rape to war from rising to heaven.

I did not persue my faith untill I was an adult, well equiped to sift through the dogma, do my own research, and not fall prey to those who would try to mainpulate the mind of the seeker through fear and intimidation.

Very nice. Probably the results of your parents being from a later, more skeptical generation than my own. When I initially broke from my parents' religious views (about age 13) and said I couldn't make any sense out of their holy books and didn't believe in any god, my mother, greatly concerned, said out loud that I should be sent to a psychologist for examination. It took a while to sort myself out, and decide what I felt was right for me, but I'll never forget her declaration. On the brighter side, I suppose it was better than hauling me before a community of her peers as a heretic.

sorry for my wierd post, i had better time today and actually read the whole thread!.
in danish it's called solverv, and that is when the day and night is ecually long..... there is one of these days on christmas, that is what my mother celebrated.. wicca don't really exsist here in Denmark as far as i know. but there is a lot of people just worshipping nature and so on, but not in any gathering..

I don't know anyone religious, i used to know 3 different kids from 3 different christian beliefs. and they had some serious arguments. wich i dont understand since i do not belive i God.

the closest i have to a belief (other than political), is that i am a rather militant vegitarian. and i am so because i cannot belive that we as humans can play "god" and determin who is to live and who is to die. i strongly belive that the cow or pig or what ever animal, has just as much the right to live, as any human on this earth, and therefor they should be treated with respect. in respect i do not mean killed in a ceremony, i mean *not* killed at all.... useually i never go around saying any of this loud, and i never give anybody a hard time about eating meat, that is their way of doing it. It's just something *i* would never do. And the reason i came to think of this, is that (i cant remember who) asked about wiccans and kids... I heard extreme amounts of bull**** for not allowing my kid to eat meat, she have never tasted it in her life, nor does she want to now, and yes it's me that just took that decission for her, that she was to "live" differently from her friends from kindergarten (and soon school), but having some strong beliefs about something is never easy, and offcourse you teach your kid to belive the same as you do, what else can you do?
If Cirkeline wants to eat meat at some time, she is welcome.. i would never give her a hard time about it, i just have some rules. as in it's not going to be prepared in my house, & she have to buy it for her own money. for some this may sound harsh, but i couldent live with it in any other way.

sorry i went kinda off-topic

I'm sorry, Fable. I didn't realize that you missed my replies that much. Do you like the catsuit? It's black and red. I can write this ceremony into your BoS if you'd like.

Well, if talking about this makes *you* feel young, then I guess we should stay on the topic then.

I don't mind telling people I'm Wiccan if they ask me specifically, but in the open where I'm not sure how the reaction will be, I just usually keep my mouth quiet. (Example - In the anatomy thread, for religion, my responce was "Ugh, I hate this question").

Scayde - This kinda goes in responce to something you asked me a while back. Yes, school was a traumatic experience (Now remember, I went to a Christian school!). Students didn't really care until they were old enough to understand - about fourth grade. I was picked on until they got used to it and accepted it (or just got bored with me) - around my junior year. I recal recieving two seperate death threats, but I was such a smartass then that I would tell them to bring it on (Not necessarily the best thing to say to somebody in Missouri). Can't say I've had a lot of problems through college: people are a little too busy with their own lives to worry about mine.

I have a very strong sense of religious freedom. I respect others in their decisions as to what road to take along the way, however, I just hate it when I'm nagged at to convert. That is when I get a little ticked, but I'm pretty good-natured about other beliefs.

I remember last year... We rounded up a bunch of my friends. My birthday is on the Autumnal Equinox and it was a full moon. My friends and I went out in the fa-reezing cold in the middle of the night to perform some rites and such, but because I live in a subdivision, our neighbors came out for a smoke and saw us all there in a circle and chanting. The candles kept going out in the wind, and we accidently dumped apple oil into one of my companion's eyes. I'm not ashamed we were seen, but we felt kind of silly. So before going in, as a sign for them to stop staring, we all started howling at the moon. Its a kind of religion you can follow and still have fun with, but I wouldn't recommend going and howling at the moon for your own pleasure, folks.